Understanding the Trinity

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By “Person” does Catholicism mean “roles assumed”?
Like an actor assuming the role of 3 persons?

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No, that would be Modalism which was declared a heresy in the third century.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
252 The Church uses
  • (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
  • (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
  • (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.” 86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” 87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” 88 The divine Unity is Triune.
 
No, that would be Modalism which was declared a heresy in the third century.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
252 The Church uses
  • (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
  • (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
  • (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.” 86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” 87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” 88 The divine Unity is Triune.
Ok so the above is what a “Person” is not.

Can you please, in simple language (since God is simple) define what a Person is?
And while we are at it, a simple definition of a “Being” as a contrast?

Thank you

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Ok so the above is what a “Person” is not.

Can you please, in simple language (since God is simple) define what a Person is?
And while we are at it, a simple definition of a “Being” as a contrast?

Thank you

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Philosophically, being is the real, and corresponds to essence. The Greeks use the word ousia, the Latins use the word substantia. When we say “God” we are referring to the divine essence (also called substance or nature).

From Boethius, the sixth century philosopher, “a person is the individual, incommunicable substance of a rational nature.”

Person and nature are related to each other in such a way that the person is the possessor of the nature and the ultimate subject of all being and activity, while the nature is that through which the person is and acts.

For you, the owner or possessor of all your activities is your person. For God, the three mutually opposed relations of fatherhood, sonship and passive spiration are the three divine Persons. God is an absolutely simple essence (substance or nature) so in God person (a mutually opposed relation) is essence.

The question that occurs to people is how can there be real difference in simple essence? It is because relation does not require composition, so it does not import composition to in that of which they are predicated.
 
Amen dear Martin!

We can all proclaim one God, but proclaiming Truth and reasonable Truth are two separate things 🙂

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Sharing with you this prayer: We give you thanks, O Lord of glory, for the example of the first martyr Stephen, who looked up to heaven and prayed for his persecutors to your Son Jesus Christ, who stands at your right hand; where he lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, in glory everlasting. Amen.

Till today being called Polytheists. But our Joy is in the Lord.

MJ
 
Amen dear Martin!

We can all proclaim one God, but proclaiming Truth and reasonable Truth are two separate things 🙂

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An old quoted tradition states;

“All human attainment moveth upon a lame donkey, whilst Truth, riding upon the wind, darteth across space”.

It is also said who wishes to understand the mystery of this Miʿrāj, That if the mirror of a persons heart is already obscured by the dust of Human Learning, a person must cleanse and purify the mirror before the the light of this mystery can be reflected in the heart.

britannica.com/event/Miraj-Islam

Very applicable to the Trinity

Regards Tony
 
Hi Vico,

This doesn’t make sense to me…
I’m not trying to be difficult, but these definitions are far from simple or non-contradictory…
… being is the… (substance).

"a person is the…substance

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I would appreciate some clarifications if you can find the time 🙂

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Sharing with you this prayer: We give you thanks, O Lord of glory, for the example of the first martyr Stephen, who looked up to heaven and prayed for his persecutors to your Son Jesus Christ, who stands at your right hand; where he lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, in glory everlasting. Amen.

Till today being called Polytheists. But our Joy is in the Lord.

MJ
I’ll be honest, until this week I never ever saw Christianity as a polytheistic religion.
I’m surprised that the belief is in 3 uncreated Persons standing side by side…

I really love the prayer however, and I too pray to St.Stephen and remember the tribulations he had to endure in the path of God. Without him, the Cause of God would be glorified with a lesser lustre!

Thank you St. Stephen…

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My above post, I’m not happy with…

I KNOW that Christianity is MONOTHEISTIC, and I wholeheartedly believe that Jesus taught monotheism.

I would like to humbly learn how to reconcile this discrepancy that I am concerned about.

I also wish to have a simple explanation. All my thoughts tell me that 3 uncreated Beings is polytheism, but we want monotheism.

I also do not feel that pure faith that it is not polytheism is sufficient. I have a very strong faith in God, but it also needs to be reasonable and acceptable to our understanding. Understanding is a facet of our spiritual nature and must not be ignored.

God bless 🙂

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My above post, I’m not happy with…

I KNOW that Christianity is MONOTHEISTIC, and I wholeheartedly believe that Jesus taught monotheism.

I would like to humbly learn how to reconcile this discrepancy that I am concerned about.

I also wish to have a simple explanation. All my thoughts tell me that 3 uncreated Beings is polytheism, but we want monotheism.

I also do not feel that pure faith that it is not polytheism is sufficient. I have a very strong faith in God, but it also needs to be reasonable and acceptable to our understanding. Understanding is a facet of our spiritual nature and must not be ignored.

God bless 🙂

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Don’t try to understand so that you can believe, you need to believe so you can understand.
 
Hi Vico,

This doesn’t make sense to me…
I’m not trying to be difficult, but these definitions are far from simple or non-contradictory…

I would appreciate some clarifications if you can find the time 🙂

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St. Thomas Aquinas write in Summa Theologica, Q29, Article 2. Whether “person” is the same as hypostasis, subsistence, and essence?

Reply to Objection 2. As we say “three persons” plurally in God, and “three subsistences,” so the Greeks say “three hypostases.” But because the word “substance,” which, properly speaking, corresponds in meaning to “hypostasis,” is used among us in an equivocal sense, since it sometimes means essence, and sometimes means hypostasis, in order to avoid any occasion of error, it was thought preferable to use “subsistence” for hypostasis, rather than “substance.”

newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm
 
It seems pretty clear hasantas, that major Prophets have a pre-existent reality.
The Word of God is eternal in nature, and Jesus being the Manifestation of that Word has expressed the eternal nature of His Divine aspect.

While the focus of Prophet Muhammad was to emphasise the human aspect of the Prophets of God, it does not mean that a Divine aspect did not exist.

When Prophet Muhammad was asked: “When did you become a Prophet?” he replied; “I was a Prophet when Adam was between the water and the mud -before he came into existence.”

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You confuse the existence which is in eternal knowledge with an imaginary existence which you suppose to be. Do you have any evidence or information about pre-existence of prophets?

Word of God is eternal and all attributes of God are eternal. Not only word for Jesus is eternal but knowledge(words for ) of everything is eternal and have no exterior existence until eternal power of God create. When power cerate then there could be an exterior existence.

The times and cases which happened in past and which will happen in future are exist in eternal knowledge of God. When power create them which is the time just we are in have exterior existence. Can we say Jesus or Muhammad have external existence now? No. But in eternal knowledge of God? Yes.

Every thing happens according to eternal destiny and order and knowledge of God knows every details and probalities. So Jesus and Muhammad should point that existence in eternal knowledge.
 
An old quoted tradition states;

“All human attainment moveth upon a lame donkey, whilst Truth, riding upon the wind, darteth across space”.

It is also said who wishes to understand the mystery of this Miʿrāj, That if the mirror of a persons heart is already obscured by the dust of Human Learning, a person must cleanse and purify the mirror before the the light of this mystery can be reflected in the heart.

britannica.com/event/Miraj-Islam

Very applicable to the Trinity

Regards Tony
Miraj is not applicable to the trinity. Because there are similar cases of Miraj. The souls ascend heavens after death. And dead people will have a body in heavens. Angel Gabriel did same thing very times and angels have a body which is not kind of we know. Bu that body is not divine as God’s essence because God cretaed angels so God can intervene by His power.

But that is right that to understand Miraj require some premises which need a purified heart and faith.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas write in Summa Theologica, Q29, Article 2. Whether “person” is the same as hypostasis, subsistence, and essence?

Reply to Objection 2. As we say “three persons” plurally in God, and “three subsistences,” so the Greeks say “three hypostases.” But because the word “substance,” which, properly speaking, corresponds in meaning to “hypostasis,” is used among us in an equivocal sense, since it sometimes means essence, and sometimes means hypostasis, in order to avoid any occasion of error, it was thought preferable to use “subsistence” for hypostasis, rather than “substance.”

newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm
Vico, I thought “hypostasis” means “essence”

How can St.Thomas state:
“since it sometimes means essence, and sometimes means hypostasis”???

This gets more and more complex…

Besides, this does not clarify what the difference is between a “Being” and a “Person” for which Peter Plato nearly bit my head off (jokes!) for confusing the two.
Can you answer this simply in a way that resembles “a Being is…” and “a Person is…”

Thank you 🙂

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The Bible is telling you.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the proving of** things not seen**.

Hebrews 11:1
So I better start believing in Mr.Scientology and his version of things!!

My heart is telling me “THERE IS ONE GOD, UNCREATED, ETERNAL” but what I see is a religion telling me “THERE ARE 3 UNCREATED PERSONS, ETERNAL”

Why should my heart have faith in such a thing??

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You confuse the existence which is in eternal knowledge with an imaginary existence which you suppose to be. Do you have any evidence or information about pre-existence of prophets?

Word of God is eternal and all attributes of God are eternal. Not only word for Jesus is eternal but knowledge(words for ) of everything is eternal and have no exterior existence until eternal power of God create. When power cerate then there could be an exterior existence.

The times and cases which happened in past and which will happen in future are exist in eternal knowledge of God. When power create them which is the time just we are in have exterior existence. Can we say Jesus or Muhammad have external existence now? No. But in eternal knowledge of God? Yes.

Every thing happens according to eternal destiny and order and knowledge of God knows every details and probalities. So Jesus and Muhammad should point that existence in eternal knowledge.
Thank you hasantas, everything you write above I agree with, but there is more to it.

There is a reason Prophet Muhammad stated “I was a Prophet before…” rather than “I was destined to be a Prophet before…”

The Prophet speaks with great clarity here, there is no symbolism…

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Vico, I thought “hypostasis” means “essence”

How can St.Thomas state:
“since it sometimes means essence, and sometimes means hypostasis”???

This gets more and more complex…

Besides, this does not clarify what the difference is between a “Being” and a “Person” for which Peter Plato nearly bit my head off (jokes!) for confusing the two.
Can you answer this simply in a way that resembles “a Being is…” and “a Person is…”

Thank you 🙂

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Being is the real, and corresponds to essence or thing.

Person is every individual intellectual substance which is complete in itself, uncommunicable and existing for itself.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q29, Article 2. Whether “person” is the same as hypostasis, subsistence, and essence? “The Philosopher” is Aristotle]
I answer that, According to the Philosopher (Metaph. v), substance is twofold. In one sense it means the quiddity of a thing, signified by its definition, and thus we say that the definition means the substance of a thing; in which sense substance is called by the Greeks ousia, what we may call “essence.” In another sense substance means a subject or “suppositum,” which subsists in the genus of substance. To this, taken in a general sense, can be applied a name expressive of an intention; and thus it is called “suppositum.” It is also called by three names signifying a reality–that is, “a thing of nature,” “subsistence,” and “hypostasis,” according to a threefold consideration of the substance thus named. For, as it exists in itself and not in another, it is called “subsistence”; as we say that those things subsist which exist in themselves, and not in another. As it underlies some common nature, it is called “a thing of nature”; as, for instance, this particular man is a human natural thing. As it underlies the accidents, it is called “hypostasis,” or “substance.” What these three names signify in common to the whole genus of substances, this name “person” signifies in the genus of rational substances.

newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm#article2

For Ousia, Hypostasis, here is some of St. Basil, Letter 236 to Amphilochius:
  1. The distinction between οὐσία and ὑ πόστασις is the same as that between the general and the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man. Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give a variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear. If we have no distinct perception of the separate characteristics, namely, fatherhood, sonship, and sanctification, but form our conception of God from the general idea of existence, we cannot possibly give a sound account of our faith. We must, therefore, confess the faith by adding the particular to the common. The Godhead is common; the fatherhood particular. We must therefore combine the two and say, I believe in God the Father. The like course must be pursued in the confession of the Son; we must combine the particular with the common and say I believe in God the Son, so in the case of the Holy Ghost we must make our utterance conform to the appellation and say in God the Holy Ghost. Hence it results that there is a satisfactory preservation of the unity by the confession of the one Godhead, while in the distinction of the individual properties regarded in each there is the confession of the peculiar properties of the Persons. On the other hand those who identify essence or substance and hypostasis are compelled to confess only three Persons, and, in their hesitation to speak of three hypostases, are convicted of failure to avoid the error of Sabellius, for even Sabellius himself, who in many places confuses the conception, yet, by asserting that the same hypostasis changed its form to meet the needs of the moment, does endeavour to distinguish persons.
newadvent.org/fathers/3202236.htm
 
Being is the real, and corresponds to essence or thing.

Person is every individual intellectual substance which is complete in itself, uncommunicable and existing for itself.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q29, Article 2. Whether “person” is the same as hypostasis, subsistence, and essence? “The Philosopher” is Aristotle]
I answer that, According to the Philosopher (Metaph. v), substance is twofold. In one sense it means the quiddity of a thing, signified by its definition, and thus we say that the definition means the substance of a thing; in which sense substance is called by the Greeks ousia, what we may call “essence.”
In another sense substance means a subject or “suppositum,” which subsists in the genus of substance. To this, taken in a general sense, can be applied a name expressive of an intention; and thus it is called “suppositum.” It is also called by three names signifying a reality–that is, “a thing of nature,” “subsistence,” and “hypostasis,” according to a threefold consideration of the substance thus named. For, as it exists in itself and not in another, it is called “subsistence”; as we say that those things subsist which exist in themselves, and not in another. As it underlies some common nature, it is called “a thing of nature”; as, for instance, this particular man is a human natural thing. As it underlies the accidents, it is called “hypostasis,” or “substance.” What these three names signify in common to the whole genus of substances, this name “person” signifies in the genus of rational substances.

newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm#article2

For Ousia, Hypostasis, here is some of St. Basil, Letter 236 to Amphilochius:
  1. The distinction between οὐσία and ὑ πόστασις is the same as that between the general and the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man. Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give a variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear. If we have no distinct perception of the separate characteristics, namely, fatherhood, sonship, and sanctification, but form our conception of God from the general idea of existence, we cannot possibly give a sound account of our faith. We must, therefore, confess the faith by adding the particular to the common. The Godhead is common; the fatherhood particular. We must therefore combine the two and say, I believe in God the Father. The like course must be pursued in the confession of the Son; we must combine the particular with the common and say I believe in God the Son, so in the case of the Holy Ghost we must make our utterance conform to the appellation and say in God the Holy Ghost. Hence it results that there is a satisfactory preservation of the unity by the confession of the one Godhead, while in the distinction of the individual properties regarded in each there is the confession of the peculiar properties of the Persons. On the other hand those who identify essence or substance and hypostasis are compelled to confess only three Persons, and, in their hesitation to speak of three hypostases, are convicted of failure to avoid the error of Sabellius, for even Sabellius himself, who in many places confuses the conception, yet, by asserting that the same hypostasis changed its form to meet the needs of the moment, does endeavour to distinguish persons.
newadvent.org/fathers/3202236.htm

Thank you so much for your time Vico, but when you say that a Person is “Person is every individual intellectual substance which is complete in itself, uncommunicable and existing for itself” we are effectively saying that Christianity believes in 3 Persons that have the qualities of uncreatedness, eternality, an intellectual substance complete in itself, uncommunicable and existing for itself(i.e can exist alone)

In your heart of hearts Vico, seriously, how on earth is this not polytheism?
Jesus could not have taught this, surely?

:confused::confused:

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