Understanding the Trinity

[MartinJordan]

Yes the same one that was alive before He manifested to start the religion called Christianity, in the form of David (also the begotten Son of God) and the one who manifested again in the form of the Bab and Baha’u’llah

It’s the same Word made flesh…

Clinging to NAMES is idolatry in my humble opinion

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Faith in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is not idolatry. It is Love of God.

Jesus is not a form of David. He is in the line of David, born humbly in a stable worshiped even by the Wise Men.

MJ

 

[openmind77]

Hi openmind

I appreciate your confusion however this requires a little study.

This essay will help you tremendously:
bahai.org/documents/essays/momen-dr-moojan/god-bahaullah

Please feel free to ask questions quoting passages from the essay that may require clarification for you

God bless you

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This document just describes Bahaullah’s idea of the nature of God - I don’t disagree with much of this.

But we were discussing who Bahaullah was in relation to the Trinity. It just does not work to say he is both Jesus and the Father. It does not fulfill either the Islamic or Christian expectations of the Second Coming. I think we still have to await the Second Coming as described by both Islamic as well as Christian traditions - neither Bahaullah nor Bab fulfill that.

The three persons of Trinity are three distinct persons - Christians see them as part of One Godhead, but two of the three persons can not manifest in one human being.

 

[MartinJordan]

Oh Martin, so much doubt when there can be none

Yes Martin

Regards Tony

So you believe He opened Heaven?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

This document just describes Bahaullah’s idea of the nature of God - I don’t disagree with much of this.

But we were discussing who Bahaullah was in relation to the Trinity. It just does not work to say he is both Jesus and the Father. It does not fulfill either the Islamic or Christian expectations of the Second Coming. I think we still have to await the Second Coming as described by both Islamic as well as Christian traditions - neither Bahaullah nor Bab fulfill that.

The three persons of Trinity are three distinct persons - Christians see them as part of One Godhead, but two of the three persons can not manifest in one human being.

My apologies openmind, it is the incorrect essay. There is another link but I cannot remember where.

Please accept my apologies.

It is well known that the Son will return in the glory of the Father.

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done" - Matt 16:27

Baha’u’llah has come as the Son in the glory of the Father.
The Son repetitively manifests from Age to Age.
The Bab fulfilled Islamic expectation in the Mahdi, but He was also the Son, just as Jesus fulfilled Messianic expectation but He was also the Son.

This quotation will also help

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

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[Servant19]

Faith in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is not idolatry. It is Love of God.

Jesus is not a form of David. He is in the line of David, born humbly in a stable worshiped even by the Wise Men.

MJ

Yes but David was also a begotten Son of God, so the Son DOES manifest from time to time

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[openmind77]

My apologies openmind, it is the incorrect essay. There is another link but I cannot remember where.

Please accept my apologies.

It is well known that the Son will return in the glory of the Father.

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done" - Matt 16:27

Baha’u’llah has come as the Son in the glory of the Father.
The Son repetitively manifests from Age to Age.
The Bab fulfilled Islamic expectation in the Mahdi, but He was also the Son, just as Jesus fulfilled Messianic expectation but He was also the Son.

This quotation will also help

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

.

I think you just said here that neither the Bab or Bahaullah is Jesus (which contradicts what you said before, but that is OK, because I agree).

But Islamic tradition says that the Mahdi’s reign will coincide with the Return of Jesus and your candidate for Mahdi is already come and gone. The whole thing does not work.

Maybe both the Bab and Bahaullah manifested some aspects of the Son, but I don’t think they fulfilled any prophecy or expectations. They are just a couple of holy men among many others.

We still need to await the Return of the real Mahdi as well as the Return of Jesus - hopefully both will happen soon.

 

[Servant19]

I think you just said here that neither the Bab or Bahaullah is Jesus (which contradicts what you said before, but that is OK, because I agree).

But Islamic tradition says that the Mahdi’s reign will coincide with the Return of Jesus and your candidate for Mahdi is already come and gone. The whole thing does not work.

Maybe both the Bab and Bahaullah manifested some aspects of the Son, but I don’t think they fulfilled any prophecy or expectations. They are just a couple of holy men among many others.

We still need to await the Return of the real Mahdi as well as the Return of Jesus - hopefully both will happen soon.

The physical manifestations are not what is being talked about when the concept of “Return” is written in all the Holy Scriptures of the past.

Jesus already explained this when he said that John the Baptist was the Prophet Elijah.

You are expecting the exact same Jesus with a crown of thorns on His head to return??
That will never ever ever happen.

There isn’t a guy called Mahdi who has actually been physically hiding in some underground cave for 1000 years who will suddenly pop out of the ground and say “Hello! I’m back!”

Belief in such things is not religion, it’s superstition dear brother

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[Vico]

The physical manifestations are not what is being talked about when the concept of “Return” is written in all the Holy Scriptures of the past.

Jesus already explained this when he said that John the Baptist was the Prophet Elijah.

You are expecting the exact same Jesus with a crown of thorns on His head to return??
That will never ever ever happen.

There isn’t a guy called Mahdi who has actually been physically hiding in some underground cave for 1000 years who will suddenly pop out of the ground and say “Hello! I’m back!”

Belief in such things is not religion, it’s superstition dear brother

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Elijah was taken to heaven in a whirlwind, he did not die (2 Kings 2:11).
Gospel of Luke states that John the Baptist is called Elijah because he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah” not that he is Elijah.
John the Baptist said he is the messenger of Isaiah 40:3, not Elijah of Malachi 3:1.
John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah (John 1:19–23).

 

[openmind77]

The physical manifestations are not what is being talked about when the concept of “Return” is written in all the Holy Scriptures of the past.

Jesus already explained this when he said that John the Baptist was the Prophet Elijah.

You are expecting the exact same Jesus with a crown of thorns on His head to return??
That will never ever ever happen.

There isn’t a guy called Mahdi who has actually been physically hiding in some underground cave for 1000 years who will suddenly pop out if the ground and say “Hello! I’m back!”

Belief in such things is not religion, it’s superstition dear brother

.

Many Christians believe in and expect the actual Return of the same Christ (no crown of thorns needed). Many Muslims believe in and expect the actual physical Return of the Mahdi as well as Return of the exact same Jesus. If you think that is superstition, that’s OK. But one thing is clear - neither Bab and not Bahaullah fulfilled either of these expectations.

In any case, please don’t say that either the Bab or Bahaullah is Jesus - it just does not make any sense. If you want to say that they both were manifestations of the Son, that sounds better. But I am afraid if so, they were probably minor manifestations with not that much impact on the whole world (Hinduism also believes in minor Avatars in between major ones).

 

[MartinJordan]

Yes but David was also a begotten Son of God, so the Son DOES manifest from time to time

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David is not a begotten Son of God, he was son of Jesse. Son of God is God (same essence, begotten of the Father). That said, there’s so much more in this and par excellence too! :

Matthew 22:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

“The son of David,” they replied.

43 He said to them, “**How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right handuntil I put your enemies under your feet.”’45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” **

46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

(NIV)

MJ

 

[Vico]

Thank you so much for your time Vico, but when you say that a Person is “Person is every individual intellectual substance which is complete in itself, uncommunicable and existing for itself” we are effectively saying that Christianity believes in 3 Persons that have the qualities of uncreatedness, eternality, an intellectual substance complete in itself, uncommunicable and existing for itself(i.e can exist alone)

In your heart of hearts Vico, seriously, how on earth is this not polytheism?
Jesus could not have taught this, surely?



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A reality that exists of itself is called “subsistent”. Since the three divine personal relations are identified with the divine essence, they are subsistent. There is only one essence, one God.

Also, they are “incommunicable” in the sense that they are not shared by another.

 

[Servant19]

Elijah was taken to heaven in a whirlwind, he did not die (2 Kings 2:11).

And indeed, neither was Jesus

Gospel of Luke states that John the Baptist is called Elijah because he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah” not that he is Elijah.
John the Baptist said he is the messenger of Isaiah 40:3, not Elijah of Malachi 3:1.
John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah (John 1:19–23).

Malachi 4:6 unequivocally states:
“See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes…”

Malachi does not state that God will send “a prophet in the spirit and power of Elijah”, He will send “THE prophet Elijah” so viewed from the perspective of Malachi, John the Baptist IS Elijah, and indeed this is true when viewed from God’s perspective.

We must strive to view things from God’s perspective whenever we can, and that perspective is not a “physical” perspective. The physical perspective is an illusion. The “spirit” perspective is clearly the reality being emphasised in the Revelations of the Prophets.

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[Servant19]

Many Christians believe in and expect the actual Return of the same Christ (no crown of thorns needed).

They can believe what they like. God doesn’t work to satisfy them. God works to test them.
Many Jews believe in and expect the actual Return of the same Elijah in an actual chariot of fire. Jesus and John the Baptist didn’t help them, didn’t satisfy them. 2000 years of Jewish study into the claims of Jesus and they still don’t buy it.

So maybe there is more to it than what meets the eyes of literalism.

Many Muslims believe in and expect the actual physical Return of the Mahdi as well as Return of the exact same Jesus. If you think that is superstition, that’s OK. But one thing is clear - neither Bab and not Bahaullah fulfilled either of these expectations.

In any case, please don’t say that either the Bab or Bahaullah is Jesus - it just does not make any sense. If you want to say that they both were manifestations of the Son, that sounds better. But I am afraid if so, they were probably minor manifestations with not that much impact on the whole world (Hinduism also believes in minor Avatars in between major ones).

You are showing good signs of understanding in stating that the Bab and Baha’u’llah are both Manifestations of the Son

There is no distinction between them all, except that they looked different in the human body they manifested through. Their Divine aspects are all one and the same. So to say that Baha’u’llah is the return of Jesus Christ is no different to Jesus saying that John the Baptist is the return of the Prophet Elijah.

True reality is more than what the electrons in ones optic nerve transmit to ones brain
(Please read my post above this one ).

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[Servant19]

David is not a begotten Son of God, he was son of Jesse.

MJ

Psalm 2
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me***, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.***

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[Servant19]

A reality that exists of itself is called “subsistent”. Since the three divine personal relations are identified with the divine essence, they are subsistent. There is only one essence, one God.

Also, they are “incommunicable” in the sense that they are not shared by another.

Are they “partakers in” the Divine essence?
Or they ARE the Divine essence?

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[openmind77]

They can believe what they like. God doesn’t work to satisfy them. God works to test them.
Many Jews believe in and expect the actual Return of the same Elijah in an actual chariot of fire. Jesus and John the Baptist didn’t help them, didn’t satisfy them. 2000 years of Jewish study into the claims of Jesus and they still don’t buy it.

So maybe there is more to it than what meets the eyes of literalism.

You are showing good signs of understanding in stating that the Bab and Baha’u’llah are both Manifestations of the Son

There is no distinction between them all, except that they looked different in the human body they manifested through. Their Divine aspects are all one and the same. So to say that Baha’u’llah is the return of Jesus Christ is no different to Jesus saying that John the Baptist is the return of the Prophet Elijah.

True reality is more than what the electrons in ones optic nerve transmit to ones brain
(Please read my post above this one ).

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There is a great differences/distinctions between all these. Bab and Bahaullah if they are manifestations of the Son at all, they are just minor ones. They are nothing close to Jesus. You are just deluding yourself in this belief.

The Return of the Christ (and that of the Mahdi) has still to occur. But it will happen in our lifetime, so your delusions will be healed quite soon.

 

[Servant19]

There is a great differences/distinctions between all these. Bab and Bahaullah if they are manifestations of the Son at all, they are just minor ones. They are nothing close to Jesus. You are just deluding yourself in this belief.

The Return of the Christ (and that of the Mahdi) has still to occur. But it will happen in our lifetime, so your delusions will be healed quite soon.

I personally am very much convinced that Baha’u’llah is unfathomably huge. (Nothing minor at all . ) He has heralded a new cycle of religious history that will last 500,000 years.

Everyone else who has not studied Him or His Revelation are the ones who will be surprised.

The age of forced conversion as seen in the Dispensations of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (at various times in history which caused widespread growth) has ended. Those that recognise Baha’u’llah are cherished for they were not forced, or fell into a belief, they EARNESTLY SAUGHT God and recognised the pure essence of His love

***“This is the Day that shall not be followed by night” ***- Baha’u’llah

I challenge God (that’s how confident I am in Baha’u’llah) to show me, I challenge Him to show me that Baha’u’llah was not the greatest Manifestation of God in religious history from time immemorial.

The new heaven and the new earth is here and I cannot take enough of the gushing Fountain-Head of life-giving waters that are immersing me with His love.

The challenge is in place (I’ve done my work, and God knows it, I’ve saught Him with my heart and soul).

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[Vico]

Are they “partakers in” the Divine essence?
Or they ARE the Divine essence?

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Aquinas wrote in Aquinas’s Shorter Summa:

66 Identity between the relative properties and the divine essence

The relative properties must be the divine essence itself. For the relative properties are precisely the subsistent persons. But a person subsisting in the Godhead cannot be something other than the divine essence; and the divine essence is God Himself, as was shown above. 64 Therefore the relative properties are in all reality identical with the divine essence.

Moreover, whatever is in a being besides its essence, is in it accidentally. But there cannot be any accidents in God, as was pointed out above. 65 Accordingly, the relative properties are not really distinct from the divine essence.

 

[MartinJordan]

Psalm 2
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me***, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.***

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Yes. St. Paul spoke about that. Acts 13:32-33 We tell you good news: what God has promised our ancestors he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As It is written in the second Psalm. "You are my son; today I have become your father "

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Yes. St. Paul spoke about that. Acts 13:32-33 We tell you good news: what God has promised our ancestors he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As It is written in the second Psalm. "You are my son; today I have become your father "

MJ

Indeed St. Paul did Martin

So it is agreed that the Son of God was manifested in the human form of David, then later in the human form of Jesus. And you say that God just decided to stop there, we understand

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