Understanding the Trinity

[hasantas]

You robot example is for creatures, so you can have the universal and the instances. It is not correct thinking to first suppose that there are three independent entities and then try to establish relation between them. That is not what God is.

Divinity is not created and is simple so universal does not apply, the is just instance of God. There is a real difference of persons (by our way of thinking), but no composition. God did not become three persons at some time. The Trinity is eternally founded in essence.

The “before all ages” means eternity: duration of being without beginning.

All spiritual beings, angels and human souls, have natural immortality, and they are created and therefore begin. Only God has absolute immortality, who has no body and whose spirit is eternal by essence.

So Jesus Christ’s body is mortal and his human soul is immortal.

There was only one God (The Trinity) before and during the incarnation of Jesus Christ, when he experienced death, and after his resurrection from the dead. The soul of Jesus Christ is eternal, just as all human souls are.

Ofcourse our instances is not enough to explain God. I tried to show that when you say Father, Son and Holy Spirit you talk about three distinct persons. You do not say Son is Father or Son is Holy Spirit or Holy Spirit is Father but instead you say Son is equal to Father or Holy Spirit have same essence or both(not one) are eternal etc. Can you see the problem?

Trinity eternally founded in essence! That means God is three in essence and essence is teernal so how can you say God is one! Is that not polytheism?

That word begotten. You say that not mean created but what? And it is not made but what? It is not distinct God but what? It is not Father but what? If Father begotten it that means it is a distinct being although it is wholy equally to God.

God do not became three persons at same time. That is very good and I like that. It is very suitable to my belief. But according to Trinity! When God is Father so Son and Holy Spirit are absent? Or when God is Son so Father is absent? If a god is able to dissolve how can it be God anymore?

Why before all ages but not eternally? Before all ages do not mean eternally. If God begotten but that mean that God(Father) has priority and that is vey obvious.

And all human has soul and God immortal essence could effect, act and assume those souls as a miror. God manifest through souls. But a mortal soul cannot be immortal by itself. Human souls can be immortal by power of God. So if God created soul and body of Jesus but that soul and body cannot share part of divinity but they can be a miror.

Eternal essence does not incarnate in flesh but create flesh. And every creature is equal according to power and attributes of God.

Holy Spirit transformed in a dove. So did soul/essence of God incarnated in animal soul or assumed animal soul. That dove must be very divine! (Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel and algels can get transform). Will that dove seat at rihgt hand of Holy Spirit?

 

[Servant19]

No, Servant 19… I’m not saying you are a bad person are some kind of Devil worshiper in fact you seem like a Great person.All I’m saying is that there is a real possibility that you are being deceived. If you had a friend who was being scammed in some way wouldn’t you do everything in your power to prevent this, and would this seem rude if you intervene on your friend’s behalf ?

How rude of the Pope then, to not call all Muslims and Baha’is and Sikhs as being deceived by Satan!!

And you call him a good man, your leader??

.

 

[Techno2000]

How rude of the Pope then, to not call all Muslims and Baha’is and Sikhs as being deceived by Satan!!

And you call him a good man, your leader??

.

I really sorry you are taking this so hard, I don’t know what else to say.

 

[Servant19]

I really sorry you are taking this so hard, I don’t know what else to say.

I’m not taking it hard, I’m not sensitive. Thanks

I don’t need to respond to such posts.

You could take a leaf from Vico’s book …

.

 

[Techno2000]

I’m not taking it hard, I’m not sensitive. Thanks

I don’t need to respond to such posts.

You could take a leaf from Vico’s book …

.

Have you asked Vico what he thinks about Bahaism, he might be a little more diplomatic than me, but in the end we are on the same page.

 

[Servant19]

From St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q27

Article 1. Whether there is procession in God?

…

Reply to Objection 2. The act of human understanding in ourselves is not the substance itself of the intellect; hence the word which proceeds within us by intelligible operation is not of the same nature as the source whence it proceeds; so the idea of generation cannot be properly and fully applied to it. But the divine act of intelligence is the very substance itself of the one who understands (14, 4). The Word proceeding therefore proceeds as subsisting in the same nature; and so is properly called begotten, and Son. Hence Scripture employs terms which denote generation of living things in order to signify the procession of the divine Wisdom, namely, conception and birth; as is declared in the person of the divine Wisdom, “The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived; before the hills, I was brought forth.” (Proverbs 8:24). In our way of understanding we use the word “conception” in order to signify that in the word of our intellect is found the likeness of the thing understood, although there be no identity of nature.

newadvent.org/summa/1027.htm

Hi there Vico, there an established commonality between the Catholic and Baha’i religions which we should explore to get to a bit deeper here:

www3.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/cp37.htm

ART. I. – ATTRIBUTES OF GOD IN GENERAL.

1. There are two kinds of attributes in God, absolute and relative. – Although human reason cannot comprehend God, it can, however, acquire a knowledge not only of His existence, but also of some of His attributes. These attributes are of two kinds: some belong to God considered in Himself, and these are absolute attributes; the others belong to Him as Creator of the world, and these are relative attributes.

1. The divine attributes are not known by us directly, but we attain to a knowledge of them from the perfections which we discover in creatures. – The cause must possess, if not in a superior degree, at least in an equal degree, all the perfections of the effect; otherwise the effect would excel its cause, which is absurd. Hence, as we infer the existence of the cause from the existence of the effect, so from the perfections of the effect we ascend to those of the cause. Therefore, since God is the absolute cause of all the perfections in creatures, it is from the knowledge of these perfections that we come to know those of God. Now, as creatures possess finite being, their perfections are also finite or limited; but as God, on the contrary, is infinite in being, His perfections must likewise be infinite. It is, therefore, necessary, before attributing to God any one of the perfections of His creatures, to take from it all limit and to consider it then as found in God in an eminent manner, as absolutely infinite.

1. As God is pure act, infinite Being, and perfectly simple, the divine attributes are identical with one another, and with the divine essence. If we distinguish them, it is because of the limitations of our mind. – In creatures the attributes arise from the essence, but are not identified with it. Tbus man’s liberty, though having its principle in his essence, is really distinct from it. In like manner, in creatures one attribute is distinct from another; in man intellect is one thing, will is another. These distinctions are not found in God. For since God is perfectly simple, to admit any distinction whatever between His attributes and His essence would be to destroy His perfect simplicity, since all distinction supposes a certain composition in that in which it exists. Now, if the divine substance were composed of parts, either each of these parts would be infinite, and then there would be as many gods as there would be parts, which is contrary to the divine unity already proved; or the infinite would result from a collection of finite parts, the perfect from the imperfect, which is absurd. Moreover, if the divine perfections were really distinct, as are those of creatures, they would no longer exist in an infinitely perfect manner in God; for, that two things be distinct, it is necessary that one be without some quality that the other has, and consequently all distinction is necessarily a principle of limit and imperfection. From this, however, it would be wrong to conclude that as the plurality of divine attributes depends on the mode in which our intellect knows God, these attributes do not really exist in Him. It is one thing to say that the perfections which we attribute to God do not exist in Him, and it is quite another thing to assert that in Him they are not distinct as our intellect conceives them. The perfections which we predicate of God are really in Him, but not with that distinction which our limited intellect establishes among them"

In the Baha’i religion, we call the two types of attributes (absolute and relative) the essential and active attributes respectively.

We can see that the active attributes are expressed in creation through phenomena, so when we see a loving act, we know that there is an all-loving active attribute, we see order in creation, we know that there is the Ordainer attribute, power, all-powerful. So these are all the active/relative attributes and they are infinite in number but they are definitely EXPRESSED in creation and are a means by which God’s image is stamped upon creation.

Can you advise if any of God’s essential attributes are expressed in creation, according to Catholicism please dear friend?

Thank you

.

 

[hasantas]

If Muslims are to be able to unite with Christians, which is what God wants, then Muslims need to recognise that Jesus and Muhammad were temporarily human, but both are a perfect reflection of Gods attributes. Gods attributes co-exist with Gods essence ETERNALLY. The attributes of God do not exist without His essence and since He is eternal, the attributes are eternal. This is where Muhammad and Jesus come from, the Kingdom of Gods names and attributes.

If Christians are to be able to unite with Muslims, which is what God wants, then Christians need to recognise that since Jesus is the perfect embodiment of the Kingdom of God’s Names and Atrributes, HE IS ETERNAL, but the Kingdom of Names and Attributes is NOT UNCREATED

The only Kingdom which is uncreated is Gods Essence, all other Kingdoms emanate from the Kingdom of Gods Essence.

This is unity.

All other explanations create disunity and are man made.
This is the only explanation which is from God.

It is our choice to choose unity or separation.

.

Your statements are confused for me. Did God create Jesus and Muhammad?

Muhammad and Jesus are not attributes of God themselves but Muhammad and Jesus are creature of God. Everything is a miror for reflection and manifestation of God. Muhammad and Jesus were very clear mirors on which attributes could reflect and manifest very light and clear. Otherwise there is no divinity of Muhammad and Jesus.

 

[Servant19]

Your statements are confused for me. Did God create Jesus and Muhammad?

Muhammad and Jesus are not attributes of God themselves but Muhammad and Jesus are creature of God. Everything is a miror for reflection and manifestation of God. Muhammad and Jesus were very clear mirors on which attributes could reflect and manifest very light and clear. Otherwise there is no divinity of Muhammad and Jesus.

Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the Perfect Embodiments of God’s Names. Since His Names and Attributes are eternally existent with God and proceed from Him, they are said to be eternal, but generated/emanated from God.

This plane of existence is non-physical, but manifests itself from time to time in a physical human Temple called Jesus, or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah

.

 

[hasantas]

If this happens then I will have no choice but to deny Baha’u’llah

In fact I will have no choice but to deny myself as a human being because I will have lost my free will…

.

Who is Bahaullah?

As much I know he is a man. Perhaps moraly high human but he could not go on straight way. Getting inspiration is usual in Islam(I do know exactly in Christianity but they talk about visions which is kind of inspiration). But many moraly high people did wrong with that visions, inspirations. Because they could see or feel or hear some very fantastic, external of physics which could not be described with words. God manifest and reflect in heart of these people or God show some wondrous cases. If those people do not evaluate these situations and cases through logic and scripture then they conclude very wrong ways. Some think that as if he is God or he is messenger of God. Some think that Satan cannot deceive him. etc.

So you should evaluate Bahaullah very carefully. Ofcourse you can say that all these are able to apply for Muhammad. You are right. Millions of moraly high people approved what Muhammad taought.

 

[Vico]

Hi there Vico, there an established commonality between the Catholic and Baha’i religions which we should explore to get to a bit deeper here:

www3.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/cp37.htm

In the Baha’i religion, we call the two types of attributes (absolute and relative) the essential and active attributes respectively.

We can see that the active attributes are expressed in creation through phenomena, so when we see a loving act, we know that there is an all-loving active attribute, we see order in creation, we know that there is the Ordainer attribute, power, all-powerful. So these are all the active/relative attributes and they are infinite in number but they are definitely EXPRESSED in creation and are a means by which God’s image is stamped upon creation.

Can you advise if any of God’s essential attributes are expressed in creation, according to Catholicism please dear friend?

Thank you

.

Your source states with regard to “two kinds of attributes in God, absolute and relative” that those “divine attributes are identical with one another, and with the divine essence.”

And we have that “all things are distinct from God, but that God is their efficient cause. God does not produce things from His own substance nor from any pre-existing reality, but by an act of His will brings them out of nothing.”

Dubray, C. (1909). Emanationism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm[/INDENT]

God, then, transcends the world which He has created, and in which He manifests His power. We know His works; through them we can demonstrate His existence and find out many of His attributes. But the mysteries of His inner life escape us; Trinity, Incarnation, Redemption are known to us only by revelation, to which revelation the immanence of our rational and moral life presents no obstacle whatever.

Thamiry, E. (1910). Immanence. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/07682a.htm

God acts in creation in these ways:

Uncreated and Divine:

• Creation
• Conservation
• Universal Providence
• Incarnation of Jesus Christ (the hypostatic union)
• Redemption of Jesus Christ (atonement)
• Mystical Body (bound together by a supernatural life communicated to them by Christ through the seven sacraments)
• Eucharist and Mass (Divine Liturgy)
• Divine Grace (actual and habitual, seven sacraments)

Created and Human:

• Spiritual and supernatural love in the human will of Christ
• Sensible love in Christ’s bodily affections

 

[hasantas]

Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the Perfect Embodiments of God’s Names. Since His Names and Attributes are eternally existent with God and proceed from Him, they are said to be eternal, but generated/emanated from God.

This plane of existence is non-physical, but manifests itself from time to time in a physical human Temple called Jesus, or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah

.

What was more or different as a human Muhammad and Jesus possesed but other people do not? I say nothing. Can you say one thing? Everyhuman has life, senses, soul etc. We can say that Muhammad and Jesus got revelation and performed miracles which other people do not. But these were from God but not belong to themselves!

 

[Servant19]

Who is Bahaullah?

As much I know he is a man. Perhaps moraly high human but he could not go on straight way. Getting inspiration is usual in Islam(I do know exactly in Christianity but they talk about visions which is kind of inspiration). But many moraly high people did wrong with that visions, inspirations. Because they could see or feel or hear some very fantastic, external of physics which could not be described with words. God manifest and reflect in heart of these people or God show some wondrous cases. If those people do not evaluate these situations and cases through logic and scripture then they conclude very wrong ways. Some think that as if he is God or he is messenger of God. Some think that Satan cannot deceive him. etc.

So you should evaluate Bahaullah very carefully. Ofcourse you can say that all these are able to apply for Muhammad. You are right. Millions of moraly high people approved what Muhammad thought.

You are correct hasantas

This could apply to Jesus and Muhammad too.

Of course, I have evaluated Baha’u’llah. I don’t take these decisions lightly.

As you can see I have also evaluated Catholicism and Jesus quite deeply, together with the Quran and Prophet Muhammad.

Most people who study the life and teachings of Baha’u’llah thoroughly, with a glimpse into what He has brought to the world in terms of the Baha’i community and how it operates, will not deny Baha’u’llah is who He claims to be, and that is the Sender of all the Prophets and the Revealer of all their Books.

Peace be with you

.

 

[Servant19]

What was more or different as a human Muhammad and Jesus possesed but other people do not? I say nothing. Can you say one thing? Everyhuman has life, senses, soul etc. We can say that Muhammad and Jesus got revelation and performed miracles which other people do not. But these were from God but not belong to themselves!

Yes indeed I agree with you, but the mere fact that God animated their human Temple with such perfection of His Divine Attributes automatically makes them more than you and I.

They were CHOSEN by God for this special Dispensation to humanity before time. You and I were not chosen for anything in comparison.

That’s a critical and huge difference and cannot be denied, and should be fully and objectively explored

.

 

[Servant19]

Your source states with regard to “two kinds of attributes in God, absolute and relative” that those “divine attributes are identical with one another, and with the divine essence.”

And we have that “all things are distinct from God, but that God is their efficient cause. God does not produce things from His own substance nor from any pre-existing reality, but by an act of His will brings them out of nothing.”

Dubray, C. (1909). Emanationism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm[/INDENT]

God, then, transcends the world which He has created, and in which He manifests His power. We know His works; through them we can demonstrate His existence and find out many of His attributes. But the mysteries of His inner life escape us; Trinity, Incarnation, Redemption are known to us only by revelation, to which revelation the immanence of our rational and moral life presents no obstacle whatever.

Thamiry, E. (1910). Immanence. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/07682a.htm

God acts in creation in these ways:

Uncreated and Divine:

• Creation
• Conservation
• Universal Providence
• Incarnation of Jesus Christ (the hypostatic union)
• Redemption of Jesus Christ (atonement)
• Mystical Body (bound together by a supernatural life communicated to them by Christ through the seven sacraments)
• Eucharist and Mass (Divine Liturgy)
• Divine Grace (actual and habitual, seven sacraments)

Created and Human:

• Spiritual and supernatural love in the human will of Christ
• Sensible love in Christ’s bodily affections

So if the two types of attributes are identical, why distinguish them by categorising them as absolute and relative?

.

 

[hasantas]

…

…

Baha’u’llah is who He claims to be, and that is the Sender of all the Prophets and the Revealer of all their Books.

Peace be with you

.

So do you claim Bahaullah is God? And later revealed to himself? You are very away from fact than Christians.

 

[Vico]

So if the two types of attributes are identical, why distinguish them by categorising them as absolute and relative?

.

The source, Elementary Course in Christian Philosophy of Brother Louis of Poissy, states:
“These attributes are of two kinds: some belong to God considered in Himself, and these are absolute attributes; the others belong to Him as Creator of the world, and these are relative attributes.”

I see that was granted Nihil Obstat. by D. J. McMAHON, D.D. and Imprimatur. by + MICHAEL AUGUSTINE, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK, in 1898

Relative means conditional, for example, since the world was created, there was a time when it was not. So as Creator, the attributes are relative.

 

[Servant19]

So do you claim Bahaullah is God? And later revealed to himself? You are very away from fact than Christians.

Again, God has an essence, which is unknowable. Baha’u’llah says that even He is debarred from that Hidden Treasure.

But what Baha’u’llah is, is the Father. He is not God.

All previous religious Dispensations, from Hinduism through to Islam were worshipping Baha’u’llah. He has opened the doors to the Most Great Spirit and the Hidden Treasure, that Eternal Essence of Essences of God, and has revealed the Hidden Greatest Name of God, which according to Islam will be revealed on Judgement Day.

This is the Day of God.

.

 

[Servant19]

The source, Elementary Course in Christian Philosophy of Brother Louis of Poissy, states:
“These attributes are of two kinds: some belong to God considered in Himself, and these are absolute attributes; the others belong to Him as Creator of the world, and these are relative attributes.”

I see that was granted Nihil Obstat. by D. J. McMAHON, D.D. and Imprimatur. by + MICHAEL AUGUSTINE, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK, in 1898

Relative means conditional, for example, since the world was created, there was a time when it was not. So as Creator, the attributes are relative.

So the relative attributes manifest, or are expressed in Creation, correct?

And the absolute attributes are expressed in God’s Essence, (i.e within Himself) correct?

 

[Vico]

So the relative attributes manifest, or are expressed in Creation, correct?

And the absolute attributes are expressed in God’s Essence, (i.e within Himself) correct?

No. From Vatican I, dogma (from Session 3 : 24 April 1870, Chapter 1, On God the creator of all things):

1. Since he is one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined.

Canons

1. On God the creator of all things
2. If anyone denies the one true God, creator and lord of things visible and invisible: let him be anathema.
3. If anyone is so bold as to assert that there exists nothing besides matter: let him be anathema.
4. If anyone says that the substance or essence of God and that of all things are one and the same: let him be anathema.
5. If anyone says that finite things, both corporal and spiritual, or at any rate, spiritual, emanated from the divine substance; or that the divine essence, by the manifestation and evolution of itself becomes all things or, finally, that God is a universal or indefinite being which by self determination establishes the totality of things distinct in genera, species and individuals: let him be anathema.
6. If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God; or holds that God did not create by his will free from all necessity, but as necessarily as he necessarily loves himself; or denies that the world was created for the glory of God: let him be anathema.

 

[Techno2000]

No. From Vatican I, dogma (from Session 3 : 24 April 1870, Chapter 1, On God the creator of all things):

1. Since he is one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined.

Canons

1. On God the creator of all things
2. If anyone denies the one true God, creator and lord of things visible and invisible: let him be anathema.
3. If anyone is so bold as to assert that there exists nothing besides matter: let him be anathema.
4. If anyone says that the substance or essence of God and that of all things are one and the same: let him be anathema.
5. If anyone says that finite things, both corporal and spiritual, or at any rate, spiritual, emanated from the divine substance; or that the divine essence, by the manifestation and evolution of itself becomes all things or, finally, that God is a universal or indefinite being which by self determination establishes the totality of things distinct in genera, species and individuals: let him be anathema.
6. If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God; or holds that God did not create by his will free from all necessity, but as necessarily as he necessarily loves himself; or denies that the world was created for the glory of God: let him be anathema.

So in a nutshell… God is life itself, and this God is… The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit… no more and no less… end of story.