Understanding the Trinity

[Vico]

So here he is talking about himself ?

According to what I studied, Bahá’u’lláh said he was the fulfillment of several traditions:

• Vaishavism - final avatar Kalki (to be)
• Buddhism - appearance of the Maitreya Buddha (to be)
• Judaism - the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father” Isaiah 9:6
• Zoroastrianism - the return of Shah Bahram Varjavand messiah
• Christianity - the “Spirit of Truth” or Comforter - John 14-17,
  and return of Christ “in the glory of the Father”
• Sunni Islam - the return of Jesus
• Shi’a Islam - the return of the (Third) Imam Husayn
• Bábism - He whom God shall make manifest.

 

[MartinJordan]

Unity in Diversity needs to be considered. How are the diverse beliefs reconciled to become a harmonious Whole, because as you have offered;

“There is only one God”

People Loved God before there was a doctrine of a Trinity and there are people that Love God after the Doctrine of the Trinity.

It may be time to redefine what it actually means, if it continues to be a cause of Disunity

God bless and Regards Tony

It seems there is a rejection of what the Church teaches through apostolic Tradition despite the fact that there is affirmation of the New Testament which Church gave by those outside the Apostolic tradition. That’s what is “redefined” rather than anything to do with the Trinity.

Please focus on the Trinity which is Unity. One God. 3 Persons. Thank you.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

According to what I studied, Bahá’u’lláh said he was the fulfillment of several traditions:

• Vaishavism - final avatar Kalki (to be)
• Buddhism - appearance of the Maitreya Buddha (to be)
• Judaism - the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father” Isaiah 9:6
• Zoroastrianism - the return of Shah Bahram Varjavand messiah
• Christianity - the “Spirit of Truth” or Comforter - John 14-17,
  and return of Christ “in the glory of the Father”
• Sunni Islam - the return of Jesus
• Shi’a Islam - the return of the (Third) Imam Husayn
• Bábism - He whom God shall make manifest.

Indeed you are correct dear Vico. Baha’u’llah has fulfilled prophecies from all religions going back to Native American and Australian spiritual traditions…

I will study your post above thoroughly when time permits today

.

 

[Servant19]

It may be. Can you tell from this?

This topic is related to divine manifestations, so I think you can see in the quote below, that per Christianity, Jesus Christ is not a divine manifestation as believed by Baha’i…

I’ll comment on this first dear Vico.

The term “Manifestation of God” found in the Baha’i Writings is a generic reference, but when looked at in more detail, it is a term used to indicate the HUMAN ASPECT ONLY, because from my understanding, the human world is a manifestation of the Kingdom.

The Divine aspect of the Manifestation of God is called the FIRST EMANATION from the essence of God. It is also termed in other theological and philosophical traditions as the Primal Will, the First Mind, the Word, the Eternal Logos.

So Jesus and Baha’u’llah should more correctly be termed the First Emanation from God. In that plane of existence, there is no distinction between Them.

Only when the First Emanation manifests Itself on earth does it become termed a Manifestation of God.

This Truth is indicated in religious Traditions dating back to Hinduism where it is stated:

"When righteousness is weak and faints, and unrighteousness exalts in pride, then my Spirit arises on earth. For the salvation of those who are good and the destruction of evil in men, I come to this world from Age to Age"

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;13549453] Please note that while the Father possesses the potentiality to beget or not beget the Son, the Son does not have the potential to beget the Father.

Your analogy of the potentiality of the Son is unable to beget the Father? Can only reveal a false deity; that becomes an ever changing false god.

God the creator does not change as your analogy presupposes a changing deity with a false pretense that God the Father can change (not beget) or God the Son does not have the power to change (to beget the Father).

When the** True and One God who is eternal is not subject to change**. To suggest a change in God reveals a false god.

I am not suggesting that God cannot do all things, when we believe “nothing is impossible for God”.

Peace be with you

 

[Vico]

I’ll comment on this first dear Vico.

The term “Manifestation of God” found in the Baha’i Writings is a generic reference, but when looked at in more detail, it is a term used to indicate the HUMAN ASPECT ONLY, because from my understanding, the human world is a manifestation of the Kingdom.

The Divine aspect of the Manifestation of God is called the FIRST EMANATION from the essence of God. It is also termed in other theological and philosophical traditions as the Primal Will, the First Mind, the Word, the Eternal Logos.

So Jesus and Baha’u’llah should more correctly be termed the First Emanation from God. In that plane of existence, there is no distinction between Them.

Only when the First Emanation manifests Itself on earth does it become termed a Manifestation of God.

This Truth is indicated in religious Traditions dating back to Hinduism where it is stated:

"When righteousness is weak and faints, and unrighteousness exalts in pride, then my Spirit arises on earth. For the salvation of those who are good and the destruction of evil in men, I come to this world from Age to Age"

.

In Christian theology, the Word is not at a lower level than the Father, rather, the entire Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal. Since the First Emanation is Logos, Catholics cannot accept the concept of First Emanation. Also, Catholic dogma on the creation of the soul denies that there are pre-existent souls (i.e., before mortal conception) for anyone, including the world’s greatest spiritual teachers, the founders of world religions.

 

[Servant19]

In Christian theology, the Word is not at a lower level than the Father, rather, the entire Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal. Since the First Emanation is Logos, Catholics cannot accept the concept of First Emanation. Also, Catholic dogma on the creation of the soul denies that there are pre-existent souls (i.e., before mortal conception) for anyone, including the world’s greatest spiritual teachers, the founders of world religions.

Hi Vico

In the Baha’i religion, Baha’u’llah asserts that He Himself is not one with the Hidden Treasure, that Eternal Essence of Essences which is incomprehensible to all, including Himself, the Father.

Whenever Jesus refers to the Father, He is referring to Baha’u’llah, not the Essence of God.

This is why it is important to appreciate that pantheism is at hand if the ESSENCE of God is manifested in Creation.

All attributes of God, such as All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Knowing must refer to Jesus/Baha’u’llah (since the Father and Son are one) and if they are not introducing pantheism then an Essence must exist beyond all of Them which is uncreated.

Otherwise you do have both polytheism and pantheism as the alternatives.

There are no other options available philosophically, I believe.

I’m not sure where you are going with the immortal soul approach. Would you mind clarifying please?

.

 

[Servant19]

Your analogy of the potentiality of the Son is unable to beget the Father? Can only reveal a false deity; that becomes an ever changing false god.

God the creator does not change as your analogy presupposes a changing deity with a false pretense that God the Father can change (not beget) or God the Son does not have the power to change (to beget the Father).

When the** True and One God who is eternal is not subject to change**. To suggest a change in God reveals a false god.

I am not suggesting that God cannot do all things, when we believe “nothing is impossible for God”.

Peace be with you

So you present here a irreconcilable dichotomy dear Gabriel.

Either the Father has the power to do all things or He does not.

I personally believe He does not, and that’s why the Father is not the Essence of God. There is more to God, not revealed in Christianity than God the Father.

The revelation of the Most Great Spirit by Baha’u’llah, the Spirit that begets the Holy Spirit is ample proof of that, and that’s why Jesus had more to say to us but we could not bear it then.

.

 

[MartinJordan]

So you present here a irreconcilable dichotomy dear Gabriel.

Either the Father has the power to do all things or He does not.

I personally believe He does not, and that’s why the Father is not the Essence of God. There is more to God, not revealed in Christianity than God the Father.

The revelation of the Most Great Spirit by Baha’u’llah, the Spirit that begets the Holy Spirit is ample proof of that, and that’s why Jesus had more to say to us but we could not bear it then.

.

How do you know about not able to bear? Perhaps you heard it from the New Testament by the Church.

Btw, what was Jesus telling the Apostles when they asked him how to pray? The Our Father? Teach us how Christians failed to understand that too.

MJ

 

[Vico]

Hi Vico

In the Baha’i religion, Baha’u’llah asserts that He Himself is not one with the Hidden Treasure, that Eternal Essence of Essences which is incomprehensible to all, including Himself, the Father.

Whenever Jesus refers to the Father, He is referring to Baha’u’llah, not the Essence of God.

This is why it is important to appreciate that pantheism is at hand if the ESSENCE of God is manifested in Creation.

All attributes of God, such as All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Knowing must refer to Jesus/Baha’u’llah (since the Father and Son are one) and if they are not introducing pantheism then an Essence must exist beyond all of Them which is uncreated.

Otherwise you do have both polytheism and pantheism as the alternatives.

There are no other options available philosophically, I believe.

I’m not sure where you are going with the immortal soul approach. Would you mind clarifying please?

.

There is a difference between Christianity and Baha’i, it is person. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are essential and uncreated. There is no composition in God yet there are three persons founded essentially. It is the person of the Son that has both the divine and human natures. The essence of the Trinity does not extend into creation, rather creation is created from nothing. The Trinity is not comprehensible.

I don’t know what you are asking about the immortal soul since I did not mention it. I did mention that Catholic dogma is that there are no pre-existent souls (they exist only from the moment of bodily creation).

 

[hasantas]

This is interesting and perhaps lies the difference in Islam and Christianity.

A Christian would then ask you, “Why could not and eternal God be incarnated (embodied in flesh; in human form)? Would God unable to do that if God wants to?”

While Islam puts a limitation in the capability of God, the doctrine of Trinity espouses that God, in His love of humankind, does an incredible act of self-giving of love.

That is nonsense which is kind of an atheist should ask: Can God create a stone which is bigger than Himself?

 

[Reuben_J]

That is nonsense which is kind of an atheist should ask: Can God create a stone which is bigger than Himself?

Haha. I heard that before. I always thought that is the only way out of this argument.

Anyway, back to God who can do everything, He who is bigger than everything, the answer must be ‘yes’. There is nothing that God cannot do. It is just a matter of understanding of what he has done.

 

[hasantas]

The Trinity is simple when the intellect understands the difference between divine essence and presence. The Trinity is simple when we do not limit God or place God in a box of carnal understanding. Faith supersedes the intellect here, when it is the Holy Spirit who teaches and reveals spiritual realities to our spirit and heart. No one has seen the Essence of Love, yet all humanity experiences love at different levels. Faith in love can see and speak of spiritual realities describes in spiritual terms.

Trinity is simple Love, eternal existing without no beginning and no end who proceeds from the Father and the Son to space and time for all ages.

Trinity is the simple movement of divine Love in presence to our humanity. I do not understand how one’s intellect cannot grasp (regard) the simple reality of Love who is divine.

;

God is unlimited but when you say God incarnated so that makes God limited. Can God create a stone which is bigger than himself? Do not forget God is above all!

My answer: That is nonsense. Because stone is kind of physical material but essence of God is beyond of physic which is eternal and surround all material universe. The stupity of question is like that: Are these equal or which is big the 5 meters or 5 kg?

So when we say eternal essence do not transform in material but that is not a lack or limit for God. For instance God has eternal omnipotend power which can do everythnig. but also God has etenal justice. Question: Can God be appressor? If you say God do not be appressor then I will ask why? Can’t He do? If you understand God has not only eternal love but there are countless eternal attributes of God which never conflict which others. But when you say God incarnated everthing conflicts.

Holy Spirit is an angel which god sent. He do not proceed(emerge) from God but he proceed by god.

And you confuse that when you consider Holy Spirit and Son to be god and are in matter and in space and in time but that mean you put God in limits. So who tink and place God in a box of carnal understanding?

The essence of God is beyond of carnal and creature essence of Son and Holy Spirit. Eternal essence of God can effect and act without being incarnated.

Cont.

 

[Reuben_J]

God is unlimited but when you say God incarnated so that makes God limited. Can God create a stone which is bigger than himself? Do not forget God is above all!

This is what we call you are putting God in a box. You are limiting God’s option and what God does. You are putting a premise that God must do greater thing and not make himself smaller or lower than what He is.

You therefore do not want to accept that God would humble himself to do something that is below Himself, if God wants to. You see the problem?

Sometimes greatness may not be in the thing we accomplish by our prowess alone, but also when we lower ourselves to a level that is far below us. Acknowledging one’s weakness can be a greatness, apologizing can be one’s greatness.

God sure does not need to lower Himself or humble Himself, but if He chooses to, who are we to say that He cannot do it?

The greatness of God, in His love for mankind, is to humble Himself to be what man are, even though He is God. It takes a mind that is inspired by God Himself to see this because to human beings this is foolishness. Humble oneself when one can do big thing? Never! God did anyway. Perhaps we can take a page in learning humility from God.

 

[hasantas]

Haha. I heard that before. I always thought that is the only way out of this argument.

Anyway, back to God who can do everything, He who is bigger than everything, the answer must be ‘yes’. There is nothing that God cannot do. It is just a matter of understanding of what he has done.

Did God create that stone?

 

[hasantas]

This is what we call you are putting God in a box. You are limiting God’s option and what God does. You are putting a premise that God must do greater thing and not make himself smaller or lower than what He is.

You therefore do not want to accept that God would humble himself to do something that is below Himself, if God wants to. You see the problem?

Sometimes greatness may not be in the thing we accomplish by our prowess alone, but also when we lower ourselves to a level that is far below us. Acknowledging one’s weakness can be a greatness, apologizing can be one’s greatness.

God sure does not need to lower Himself or humble Himself, but if He chooses to, who are we to say that He cannot do it?

The greatness of God, in His love for mankind, is to humble Himself to be what man are, even though He is God. It takes a mind that is inspired by God Himself to see this because to human beings this is foolishness. Humble oneself when one can do big thing? Never! God did anyway. Perhaps we can take a page in learning humility from God.

Humility of God is to talk to humanbeing through prophets and scriptures and that is very humble of Him. If God did not talk to people and did not regard human so there should be very losses for human. King does not go everywhere but he sends messengers. You suppose as if Muslims regard God so hard. God’s Mercy and Grace involve whole universe.

To be humble for someone do you kill yourself? That does not sound humility.

I think here the question should be “was there need for God to be incarnated”

My answer is no and if someone says yes then let’s discuss.

 

[MartinJordan]

That is nonsense which is kind of an atheist should ask: Can God create a stone which is bigger than Himself?

Strawman. Quite sad really.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

=Gabriel of 12;13549745]

Trinity is the simple movement of divine Love in presence to our humanity. I do not understand how one’s intellect cannot grasp (regard) the simple reality of Love who is divine.

The greatest purpose and object of humanity is Faith(Iman). And greatest position of human ma’rifattullah(knowing God in details) which is in faith. And the greatest happiness of human is Muhabattullah(Love of God) which is in Ma’rifattullah. And the greatest pure gratification of human is enjoyment of soul which is in Muhabattullah(Love of God).

Love of God is eternal. Love of God is one of the greatest reason to cretate universe. Love of God is the attachment and connection of that universe. Muhabattulah is light and life of that universe. So God put a love in heart of human which can surround all universes.

God can manifest and act without means. So God can manifest His eternal love without Holy Spirit just look at your heart and your loves. God can act and manifest His life wtihout any means just look at all alives. God can act His light wtihout any means just look at universe through stars. God can act His wisdom wtihout any means just look at all intellects. etc.

Just a remind: Muslims have enough knowledges about eternal attributes of God.

 

[hasantas]

Strawman. Quite sad really.

MJ

A strawman for a strawman!

 

[MartinJordan]

A strawman for a strawman!

Explain please.

MJ