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hasantas
Guest
You said “strawman” so that word you used is straw man for my comments.
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hasantas
Guest
If I quote from Qur’an would you accept? It would be very easy for me?
Bible is from God though there is no original text. So I can take from Bible because my faith require to believe in scriptures(Torah and Bible).
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hasantas
Guest
What is relation to Trinity? There are some Hadiths in that meaning so what?
Where is Trinity? Father is God, Son is prophet and Holy Spirit is angel. In the name of whom John the baptist did?
So you accept that God did not inform any knowledge about trinity?
Who was Pilate? Governer of Rome. The land of Jews was under occupation of Rome. And Christianity spread in Rome land but not in Jews. Christianity was under pressure of Rome and even Rome use religion to rule people. History is evidence for that.
Jesus Christ did not taught anything about Trinity!
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The Father you speak of is never the Christian Trinity revealed by God Himself. What you present here “personally” is never Trinity or God. Thus I have no rebuttal to your personal opinion of an unknown “Father” that does not exist in Trinity = God.
Your view of God or the Trinity has left the subject of the blessed Trinity revealed by God.
For clarification the Father is the presence of God, the Essence of God is veiled in the Father’s presence.
Your opinion, “Father is not the Essence of God” is never Trinity, you have left the discussion of the True Trinity here.
All divine revelation and the full deposit of faith has been handed down and revealed by God who is Emmanuel = God with us. There is no more divine revelation after Jesus Christ and the last living apostle.
Scripture reveal all other new gospels or revelations come from the anti-Christ or is accursed. Any new revelation come from men not God. Or even if an angel presents a new gospel it is accursed. This is not a revelation by men, but a revelation by God.
Again your opinion never reaches the blessed Trinity = God of revelation. A spirit or “the spirit” never begets the Holy Spirit, this would be considered heretical in Christian circles…
Unless you can adequately follow the prescripts of “understanding the Trinity” as Christian theology expresses divine revelation. Your subject matter leaves the subject of discussion.
Peace be with you
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Understanding the Trinity begins with understanding what God has revealed to our humanity in the following sacred scriptures;
1 Peter 2:8
and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message–which is also what they were destined for
1Corinthians 1:23
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
…22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
God revealed why the world cannot accept the wisdom of God, because the world does not know the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Hebrews 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Peace be with you
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The Hebrews (Torah) all teach and speak of God in the Plural. Christianity believes in the Trinity because God revealed His **True presence **to these faithful.
When did ever an Hadith writer ever see God to know “ALL the attributes of God”?
How does a Hadith reconcile God speaking in the Plural in the Tora of Genesis when God say’s “Let **US make man in OUR **image”.
I am not here to debate your own views of a Trinity that does not exist. I can share with you my faith in the blessed Trinity which God revealed to our humanity so as to grasp at an understanding of the Trinity, that is understood as not coming from men, but as Trinity is revealed by God.
I accept that the Quran teaches a false Trinity that does not exist (Father, Mary, Jesus), and the Quran’s trinity is never a Trinity revealed by God.
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NO, Pilate was the “Governer” if you will, of Palestine not Rome. Pilates pagan belief’s has nothing to do with our Christian faith in the Trinity. Pilate believed his Ceasar was a deity among many other deities. This is never Trinity.
For the record, the Kingdom of God is not of this world, it is an eternal Kingdom. Those men who use religion as an opium of the people to rule over them in a political system, the bible speaks of such secular religions as prostituting religion at the expense of God’s flock.
Christianity has only One King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.
A biblical quote by Jesus Himself;
Matthew 28;16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. **19Therefore go **and make disciples of all nations, **baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, **20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
If you follow the first century Roman secular and Jewish historical writings as well as divine revelation recorded in the bible. You will find the Christians of Jesus Day, baptizing all believers in Jesus Christ, in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Who all follow Jesus teaching of the Trinity.
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Techno2000
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping:
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MartinJordan
Guest
I accept only the Bible as Scripture.
I resort only to Church documents as well to help me learn about Jesus and his Apostles and what has been passed on. It has taught how much God cares and Loves mankind, his greatest creationSo I’ve asked you over 5 times at least to give supporting documents from Islam Tradition which Bible verses has been used officially as true example of "original " verses from the Christian New Testament Yet only been given here verses acceptable to present day Muslims and thus subjective views. Can you furnish the documents so that Islam can stand on its own facts and analysis. I ask this as a courtesy due and some generosity for good orders sake.
MJ
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MartinJordan
Guest
Whether a stone could be greater than God is nothing to do with the progression of Christian thought process when it is asked of Muslims how can God be limited not to become man.
MJ
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Servant19
Guest
Thank you dear Gabriel. Of course, I understand this has strayed from Christian Trinitarian teaching. God does that. The evidence is in how the Christian Trinity has strayed from Jewish teaching about YAHWEH. God does that, makes it no less valid it seems.
You would never advise a Jew to forgo Christ just because he thinks Christ has strayed away from Jewish teaching (in their opinion) would you?
Can I ask you what are the attributes of the Father? I see nothing Scriptural pertaining to the Father being The Essence of God. Would you minding pointing to some verses please?
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Servant19
Guest
I’m not fully clear as to what you are asking here Gabriel. No one is proposing a “changing God”…
Are you saying that the Son could, potentially, beget the Father?
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Servant19
Guest
Yes, my apologies, the pre-existent soul. What is this relating to?
The Baha’i Faith also has a Person, dear Vico. What made you think otherwise?
As I stated however, if the essence of God can be accounted for in creation, we have pantheism. If you are saying that the attribute All-Merciful is an attribute of His essence, then since man can be merciful also, it’s as if the cells of (the painter) Gods optic nerve are to be found in His painting.
Philosophically implosive, and fragmentalization of God within nature and creation.
Ignoring that this is not Christian teaching, surely you can see this perspective, no?
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Servant19
Guest
Even from the perspective of “God can do anything”, the question is asked “Can the Son beget the Father?”
If He cannot, then the Son MUST be created. There are no philosophical options dear Reuben.
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MartinJordan
Guest
The Prologue of John clearly shows us, the Logos refers in the first place to the eternal Word, the only Son, begotten of the Father before all ages and consubstantial with him: the word was with God, and the word was God. But this same Word, Saint John tells us, “became flesh” (Jn 1:14); hence Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary, is truly the Word of God who has become consubstantial with us. Thus the expression “word of God” here refers to the person of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of the Father, made man. - Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI
MJ
MJ
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Vico
Guest
I think that Baha’i Faith does not have divine Person which is the relation of opposition and is essential but that does not import composition, as Christianity does. God is essentially Trinity.Yes, my apologies, the pre-existent soul. What is this relating to?
The Baha’i Faith also has a Person, dear Vico. What made you think otherwise?
As I stated however, if the essence of God can be accounted for in creation, we have pantheism. If you are saying that the attribute All-Merciful is an attribute of His essence, then since man can be merciful also, it’s as if the cells of (the painter) Gods optic nerve are to be found in His painting.
Philosophically implosive, and fragmentalization of God within nature and creation.
Ignoring that this is not Christian teaching, surely you can see this perspective, no?
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It is not clear what you mean by “accounted for in creation”, however, there is clearly established Catholic dogma against pantheism or panentheism: the essence of God is not the foundation of creation, rather God creates His creation from nothing, and creation is not an extension of divinity nor in divinity.
No, I am not referring that man is created in the image and likeness of God.
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Servant19
Guest
Nothing I would disagree with there…
Jesus was indeed a manifestation (made flesh) of the only Son/Word of God born of the Virgin Mary.
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Vico
Guest
And this means that person, the Son of God, assumed a human nature in addition to His divine nature, resulting in both divine and human wills, still just one person.
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MartinJordan
Guest
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MartinJordan
Guest
This also falls quite nicely to our Liturgy today about the Magi (wise men) visiting Jesus :
The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men (magi) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee.212 In the magi, representatives of the neighboring pagan religions, the Gospel sees the first-fruits of the nations, who welcome the good news of salvation through the Incarnation. The magi’s coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations.213 Their coming means that pagans can discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning towards the Jews and receiving from them the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament. 215
Excerpt Taken from the CCC : vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p3.htm
MJ
The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men (magi) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee.212 In the magi, representatives of the neighboring pagan religions, the Gospel sees the first-fruits of the nations, who welcome the good news of salvation through the Incarnation. The magi’s coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations.213 Their coming means that pagans can discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning towards the Jews and receiving from them the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament. 215
Excerpt Taken from the CCC : vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p3.htm
MJ
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