Understanding the Trinity

[Techno2000]

Either way, it seems what you are asking me to do (become a Catholic so that I can believe seemingly irrational theology) is not a reflection of reality, since earlier this year, close to 70% of Catholics in the US and Ireland believe in a “symbolic” Eucharist.

cruxnow.com/church/2015/02/23/i-dont-believe-the-eucharist-is-the-body-of-christ-am-i-going-to-hell/

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One can say that those who believe the Eucharist is more that just a symbol have a strong Faith, and those who believe it’s just a symbol have a weak Faith.

 

[MartinJordan]

So you’re telling me that if I was to commit to being a Catholic, over time, because of my connection with the Apostolic Tradition, I will realise what 100% God/100% human means and will believe it?

Rational belief is thrown out of the window for a spiritual certitude? Personally I think true faith is to have BOTH rational belief and spiritual certitude.

Either way, it seems what you are asking me to do (become a Catholic so that I can believe seemingly irrational theology) is not a reflection of reality, since earlier this year, close to 70% of Catholics in the US and Ireland believe in a “symbolic” Eucharist.

cruxnow.com/church/2015/02/23/i-dont-believe-the-eucharist-is-the-body-of-christ-am-i-going-to-hell/

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No. I’m saying that without order and Tradition one won’t know Jesus. So kindly in good spirit clearly reply my words with some analysis from your own. Thank you.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

One can say that those who believe the Eucharist is more that just a symbol have a strong Faith, and those who believe it’s just a symbol have a weak Faith.

I brought the point of going to Mass every week or for some daily (like my parents for example), because they were brought up in the Tradition of the Church. The Tradition of receiving the Eucharist with reverence and Faith, experiencing Jesus and what he commanded. Prayer and thanksgiving to God for the gift of His Son.

I don’t know if the so called “symbolic” believing Catholics go to Church in the first place and learn Scripture and listen to the Homilies with respect.

MJ

 

[Techno2000]

I don’t know if the so called “symbolic” believing Catholics go to Church in the first place and learn Scripture and listen to the Homilies with respect.

MJ

That’s likely the case.

 

[MartinJordan]

That’s likely the case.

Sure.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

It is the invitation of Holy Mother Church to welcome this Word of salvation, this mystery of light. If we welcome Him, if we welcome Jesus, we will grow in understanding and in the love of the Lord, we will learn to be merciful as He is.

Especially in this Holy Year of Mercy,Let us make sure that the Gospel becomes ever more incarnate in our own lives too. Drawing near to the Gospel, meditating on it and** incarnating it in daily life is the best way to understand Jesus and bring Him to others.** This is the vocation and the joy of every baptized person: showing Jesus and giving Him to others; but to do that we have to know Him and have Him within us, as the Lord of our life. - Pope Francis

Excerpt from : en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/01/03/angelus_church_invites_us_to_welcome_the_word_of_salvation/1198588

Bolded and colors mine.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

No. I’m saying that without order and Tradition one won’t know Jesus. So kindly in good spirit clearly reply my words with some analysis from your own. Thank you.

MJ

Hi Martin. I promise you I am trying my best to be in good spirit and orderly
I guess the next step in good spirits would be to not question at all.

My question was that if the Incarnation was 100% fully God, what humbleness took place?

You are telling me that I will not understand without order and Tradition. I am asking you to share this so that, as someone who is learning about Catholicism, I may be able to understand.

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[Servant19]

I brought the point of going to Mass every week or for some daily (like my parents for example), because they were brought up in the Tradition of the Church. The Tradition of receiving the Eucharist with reverence and Faith, experiencing Jesus and what he commanded. Prayer and thanksgiving to God for the gift of His Son.

I don’t know if the so called “symbolic” believing Catholics go to Church in the first place and learn Scripture and listen to the Homilies with respect.

MJ

I too prefer to receive the body and blood of the Word on a daily basis

I think all Christians should go to Mass daily.
The Baha’is are spiritually obliged to do the same every morning and night.

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[MartinJordan]

Hi Martin. I promise you I am trying my best to be in good spirit and orderly
I guess the next step in good spirits would be to not question at all.

If one who is not in the Church but is reading and stating verses from Scripture the Church put together about its relationship with the Living Jesus who is God according to Tradition is actually asking questions. I believe if the reader finds some spiritual value but either left the Church or brought in another Faith, that person is also asking questions. They’re searching. So continue asking.

My question was that if the Incarnation was 100% fully God, what humbleness took place?

Ive explained that earlier. Short form: Our Scripture by the Church has constantly taught the Son (Person of Divine nature) humbled himself to become born of a woman (a sinless human person Mary) and thus became man of flesh and blood, but born also in humble circumstances to live among men , under authority of the Law, not clinging on to his Divine nature (being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross! - See Philippians 2).

That is the humble part

You are telling me that I will not understand without order and Tradition. I am asking you to share this so that, as someone who is learning about Catholicism, I may be able to understand.

I pray the above helps.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

True humility can be expressed to the greatest degree only by the greatest.

John 13:3-7

3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God, 4 got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself. 5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6 So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him,

“Lord, do You wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered and said to him,
“What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.”​

Yes I understand, dear Vico. These acts are wonderful and a sign of humility.

However, in Christianity it is said that God humbled Himself by taking on a human frame.
There is no humility if He retains His divine nature as a human…

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[MartinJordan]

However, in Christianity it is said that God humbled Himself by taking on a human frame.
There is no humility if He retains His divine nature as a human…

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Sorry, Im not Vico.

He retained Divine Nature yes, but born of a woman, under the Law and even authority of his earthly parents too. Till he reached around 30 ( Luke 3:23) to do his Mission and suffered death.

MJ

 

[Vico]

Yes I understand, dear Vico. These acts are wonderful and a sign of humility.

However, in Christianity it is said that God humbled Himself by taking on a human frame.
There is no humility if He retains His divine nature as a human…

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The Gospel shows that the Son of Man humbles himself. Jesus Christ has two natures and two wills, but there is only one person. The humility is with the person not the nature.

 

[Techno2000]

The Gospel shows that the Son of Man humbles himself. Jesus Christ has two natures and two wills, but there is only one person. The humility is with the person not the nature.

That why the devil could never figure out Jesus, he humbled himself so much that the devil couldn’t believe God would do such a thing.

 

[Servant19]

That which is done by God “by nature” does not signify that it was done consequently and perforce. Begetting is by nature. Creating (making) and begetting are not the same. With begetting divine begets divine, man begets man.

The Creed states “begotten, not made”:

“I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in essence with the Father; through whom all things were made.”

Saint Epiphanios replied to the Arians, regarding the Father begetting the Son:

“Neither, therefore, did He beget voluntarily, nor involuntarily, but only on account of the preponderance of nature. For divine nature predominates over volition and is not subjugated to Time, nor drawn by any need”

Ούτε θέλων τοίνυν εγέννησεν, ούτε μη θέλων, αλλ’ υπερβολή φύσεως. υπερβαίνει γαρ η θεία φύσις βουλήν, και ουχ υποπίπτει χρόνω, ούτε ανάγκη άγεται.

Thank you Vico.

If begetting and creating are not the same, why the need to point out “uncreated”? Begetting already should mean uncreated, no need to emphasise the point, if that is the case…

I absolutely agree that it is within the nature of Gods essence to beget, generate, or emanate, but still cannot tell us that the “begotten/generated/emanated” is uncreated.

I looked back and the subject of uncreatedness and polytheism is still an unresolved issue.

Also the essential attributes of God. I found this to be consistent with Baha’i belief:

ART. II. – ABSOLUTE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. – ASEITY.

1. Aseity is an attribute by which God is of Himself or from Himself. It is the primitive attribute from which we can deduce all the others. – The divine attributes are manifold. But among them we can distinguish one to which all the others may, in our way of thinking, be reduced. This is aseity, that is, the perfection by which God is the absolute and independent Being who holds from Himself all that He has and all that He is. It is by this attribute that God defined Himself when He said, “I am who am.” In this attribute philosophers have placed the metaphysical essence of God, because it is the principle and foundation of all the other perfections attributed to Him. For if we could conceive anything in God prior to aseity, we could conceive a self-existent being as dependent on another being. Since, then, God is independent in His being, and since He holds His essence from Himself alone, we very easily perceive that He possesses all possible perfections. Aseity, further, affords the primary reason for which God is distinct from every other being; for other beings have finite perfections, while God possesses infinite perfections. But it is evident that other beings than God have finite perfections, for the very reason that they do not hold their being from themselves; and that the perfections of God are infinite because He is the absolute Being who holds all from Himself and depends on none.

Please share your thoughts…

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[Servant19]

If one who is not in the Church but is reading and stating verses from Scripture the Church put together about its relationship with the Living Jesus who is God according to Tradition is actually asking questions. I believe if the reader finds some spiritual value but either left the Church or brought in another Faith, that person is also asking questions. They’re searching. So continue asking.

Ive explained that earlier. Short form: Our Scripture by the Church has constantly taught the Son (Person of Divine nature) humbled himself to become born of a woman (a sinless human person Mary) and thus became man of flesh and blood, but born also in humble circumstances to live among men , under authority of the Law, not clinging on to his Divine nature (being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross! - See Philippians 2).

That is the humble part

I pray the above helps.

MJ

Thank you Martin

That’s a very nice clarification for me and an answer that sits well with reason.

God bless you

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[Servant19]

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The above passage I quoted (from www3.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/cp37.htm seems to answer this question which I was looking for an answer:

Does Gods essence have any attributes according to Catholic teaching?

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The question now is, does aseity manifest within Creation?

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[Techno2000]

That is the humble part

MJ

Right, just for a mere mortal to go through the suffering that Jesus did is incredible ,but the fact that Jesus give up his highest position in Heaven to go to the lowest position on Earth makes it Doubly incredible.

 

[Servant19]

Right, just for a mere mortal to go through the suffering that Jesus did is incredible ,but the fact that Jesus give up his highest position in Heaven to go to the lowest position on Earth makes it Doubly incredible.

All the Manifestations of God suffered incredibly, and although they could do whatever they liked, they always submitted to the oppressors…

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[Techno2000]

All the Manifestations of God suffered incredibly, and although they could do whatever they liked, they always submitted to the oppressors…

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Hi Servant 19, you have some trouble understanding the “Trinity”, and I have some trouble understanding " Manifestations" .

 

[Servant19]

Hi Servant 19, you have some trouble understanding the “Trinity”, and I have some trouble understanding " Manifestations" .

“Manifestation of God” is a term used in the Baha’i Writings to refer to Baha’u’llah, or the Bab, or Jesus, or Muhammad etc…basically the Founders of major global religions.

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