Understanding the Trinity

[Techno2000]

You can’t explain such things in a single post.

Read this in its entirety:
bahai-library.org/books/quest/quest.03.html

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I’m Speechless…:hypno::hypno::hypno:

**Limitations of some modern concepts on evolution

Some evolutionists deny any unity, `rationality’ and finality in the evolutionary process.

Regarding the progress in the physical world through evolution, this progress can be described – in a Bahá’í perspective – as a rising helicoidal motion. Each coil of the helicoid is a `circle of existence’[203] with its beginning and its end. In the helicoid, the end of the coil always stands at a superior level to its beginning. In fact, just as any phenomenal reality, both individual and species, had a beginning, so it will have also an end, because any phenomenal reality, inasmuch as it is phenomenal, is limited in time and space. Therefore evolution, viewed in individuals and species, implies a stage of progress, as well as a stage of regress, following that stage wherein that phenomenal being has attained its highest possible point of perfection, that is its maturity. Nevertheless, that individual, or that species, will be followed by other individuals, other species, which will bring his or its perfections a step forward. But they will do it on another level.**

 

[Servant19]

I’m Speechless…:hypno::hypno::hypno:

**Limitations of some modern concepts on evolution

Some evolutionists deny any unity, `rationality’ and finality in the evolutionary process.

Regarding the progress in the physical world through evolution, this progress can be described – in a Bahá’í perspective – as a rising helicoidal motion. Each coil of the helicoid is a `circle of existence’[203] with its beginning and its end. In the helicoid, the end of the coil always stands at a superior level to its beginning. In fact, just as any phenomenal reality, both individual and species, had a beginning, so it will have also an end, because any phenomenal reality, inasmuch as it is phenomenal, is limited in time and space. Therefore evolution, viewed in individuals and species, implies a stage of progress, as well as a stage of regress, following that stage wherein that phenomenal being has attained its highest possible point of perfection, that is its maturity. Nevertheless, that individual, or that species, will be followed by other individuals, other species, which will bring his or its perfections a step forward. But they will do it on another level.**

This makes tremendous sense.

But you need to read the stuff before it in order to understand. But I don’t know why you’re not reading the stuff relevant to this thread?

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[Techno2000]

This makes tremendous sense.

But you need to read the stuff before it in order to understand. But I don’t know why you’re not reading the stuff relevant to this thread?

.

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I did read the stuff before, and my eyes glazed over it was so convoluted, can you tell me what the stuff I posted means ?

 

[MartinJordan]

Thought they were for all mankind Did not Christ die for us all?

Regards Tony

Yes, it can be for mankind, but first one needs to understand without the Church there would be no New Testament. So ordered reason tells that without the Church no New Testament Scripture to refer to.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Here is a clear answer for you in English.

Jesus is the Word. The Word is a created, eternal First Emanation from the God’s Essence.

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In the Beginning was the Word. God is the Word. God is the I AM. Thus The Word is I AM. The Word exists.

How can it be a Creation when it emanates (btw a Latin word for “flowed out”) from what exists?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Tony said: Thought they were for all mankind Did not Christ die for us all ?

Jesus being one of many " Manifestations of God " why did he die for us? What did Muhammad’s Death do for us, because he was a " Manifestations of God " too.

For every “And so it shall be done. Amen” there is a sacrifice…

Jesus opened the doors of heaven, a new commandment and taught us the spirit of atonement of sins. For this there is a sacrifice that is required.

Muhammad brought other things. The Bab and Baha’u’llah yet more things.
The unification of mankind is not possible without the tortuous sacrifices of the Bab and Baha’u’llah

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[Servant19]

But not Catholic teaching, anyway, for the second person of the Trinity, the Son is the Word.

John 1:1-5

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

“He was in the beginning with God.” should tell you something about the concept of Emanation and its pre-existence with God’s Essence.

Emanation is created, not uncreated.

The Baha’i Faith is comfortable with Jesus being the God of creation. He is that. It’s just that there is more BEYOND that. God’s aseity is evidence of that Hidden Reality. The singularity of the Essence (that Hidden Reality) and its attribute of aseity proves that it is beyond the created, pre-existent Triune God.

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[Servant19]

Catholic teaching on aseity is that God is “absolutely independent and self-existent by nature, and, consequently, all-perfect without any possibility of change from all eternity.” *

And is opposed to “the pantheistic concept of absolute or pure being, which absolute or pure being evolves, determines, and realizes itself through all time.” *

• Catholic Encyclopedia

Are you instead thinking of omnipresence?

What I am trying to guide you towards is the reality that there are some attributes of God which are evident in Creation, such as power, love, mercy and some which are not, such as aseity.

Those that are evident in Creation are not essential/absolute attributes otherwise this becomes pantheism.

If God’s essence is IN creation, then it is pantheism. If it SURROUNDS creation, it is not pantheism.

So in order for us not to have pantheism, there must be some other source of attributes which are evident in Creation. This source is the Kingdom (of God’s Names and Attributes), the Lord of which is the Word/Logos/First Emanation/Primal Will.

So we have:

1. God’s Essence (and its essential/absolute attributes),
2. His First Emanation and its Kingdom of Names and Attributes of God (and its active/relative attributes), and
3. Creation

We also have:

1. The painter
2. The ACT of painting
3. The painting.

Or:

1. A man/woman (and his/her essential attributes)
2. The acts of cooking, running, walking, washing etc etc (active attributes)
3. The dinner, the clean bathroom, etc etc

Or:

1. The sun
2. The rays of the sun
3. The earth.

This is intimated in the Catholic reference to God’s attribute of aseity (which is an essential attribute): (I bolded it to assist you)

ART. II. – ABSOLUTE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. – ASEITY.

1. Aseity is an attribute by which God is of Himself or from Himself. It is the primitive attribute from which we can deduce all the others. – The divine attributes are manifold. But among them we can distinguish one to which all the others may, in our way of thinking, be reduced. This is aseity, that is, the perfection by which God is the absolute and independent Being who holds from Himself all that He has and all that He is. It is by this attribute that God defined Himself when He said, “I am who am.” In this attribute philosophers have placed the metaphysical essence of God, because it is the principle and foundation of all the other perfections attributed to Him. For if we could conceive anything in God prior to aseity, we could conceive a self-existent being as dependent on another being. Since, then, God is independent in His being, and since He holds His essence from Himself alone, we very easily perceive that He possesses all possible perfections. Aseity, further, affords the primary reason for which God is distinct from every other being; for other beings have finite perfections, while God possesses infinite perfections. But it is evident that other beings than God have finite perfections, for the very reason that they do not hold their being from themselves; and that the perfections of God are infinite because He is the absolute Being who holds all from Himself and depends on none.

I pray that this helps in your understanding hee dear brother

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[Servant19]

I did read the stuff before, and my eyes glazed over it was so convoluted, can you tell me what the stuff I posted means ?

It’s for another thread.

I want Eric to remain my friend

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[Servant19]

Yes, it can be for mankind, but first one needs to understand without the Church there would be no New Testament. So ordered reason tells that without the Church no New Testament Scripture to refer to.

MJ

The Baha’i Faith acknowledges fully the Church’s Teachings.

Christ is God. He is the God of creation.

But the Baha’i Faith states that there is a Hidden Treasure, the Essence of God which is beyond that who’s First Emanation was the Word.

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[MartinJordan]

The Baha’i Faith acknowledges fully the Church’s Teachings.

Christ is God. He is the God of creation.

But the Baha’i Faith states that there is a Hidden Treasure, the Essence of God which is beyond that who’s First Emanation was the Word.

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The New Testament is by the Church for the Church. The Church put it together as a guide, and as a Living Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit that guides the Church to continually spread the Good News to All.

The Church teaches that the word of God is alive and active (Hebrews 4:12).

The word of God, “is in its fullness is the mystery that has been kept** hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people** (The Church)” (Colossians 1:26).

St. Paul states : "God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you ( Christ in The Church), the hope of glory… He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. (Colossians 1:27-28)

If one still wants to use the New Testament, ask the Church for further guidance.

MJ

 

[Vico]

What I am trying to guide you towards is the reality that there are some attributes of God which are evident in Creation, such as power, love, mercy and some which are not, such as aseity.

Those that are evident in Creation are not essential/absolute attributes otherwise this becomes pantheism.

If God’s essence is IN creation, then it is pantheism. If it SURROUNDS creation, it is not pantheism.

So in order for us not to have pantheism, there must be some other source of attributes which are evident in Creation. This source is the Kingdom (of God’s Names and Attributes), the Lord of which is the Word/Logos/First Emanation/Primal Will.

So we have:

1. God’s Essence (and its essential/absolute attributes),
2. His First Emanation and its Kingdom of Names and Attributes of God (and its active/relative attributes), and
3. Creation

We also have:

1. The painter
2. The ACT of painting
3. The painting.

Or:

1. A man/woman (and his/her essential attributes)
2. The acts of cooking, running, walking, washing etc etc (active attributes)
3. The dinner, the clean bathroom, etc etc

Or:

1. The sun
2. The rays of the sun
3. The earth.

This is intimated in the Catholic reference to God’s attribute of aseity (which is an essential attribute): (I bolded it to assist you)

I pray that this helps in your understanding hee dear brother

.

I am already aware of the differences between Baha’i and Christianity, especially in regard to the denial of the Most Holy Trinity, however I have tried to answer any questions that you had for me. Michael Sours, Understanding Christian Beliefs p, 74-75. highlights that difference, which is that Christianity professes that Jesus Christ is God, but Baha’i belief is the Jesus Christ is possesses the attributes of God’s divinity but is not actually God in essence.

The recognition of Jesus’ Sonship and Divinity is apparent in many passages throughout the Bahá’í writings, but some Christians believe this recognition falls short, according to Christian doctrine, Jesus is more than divine: He is God. In other words, there is a distinction that concerns the difference between possessing the attributes of God’s divinity and actually being God in essence. Bahá’ís believe that through the physical and historical Person, Jesus Christ, the divine attributes of God were made manifest to the world, but that God’s essence is too transcendent to be fully embodied in flesh. From the Bahá’í point of view, this is the meaning of the Word becoming flesh, - the incarnation - as described in the first chapter of the Gospel according to John."

It must be denied by all Catholics because it opposed the Christian faith. The heresy from ancient times of Arius is the same or similar, with regard to the essence:
“He described the Son as a second, or inferior God, standing midway between the First Cause and creatures; as Himself made out of nothing, yet as making all things else; as existing before the worlds of the ages; and as arrayed in all divine perfections except the one which was their stay and foundation. God alone was without beginning, unoriginate; the Son was originated, and once had not existed. For all that has origin must begin to be.”

Barry, W. (1907). Arianism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

 

[Servant19]

The New Testament is by the Church for the Church. The Church put it together as a guide, and as a Living Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit that guides the Church to continually spread the Good News to All.

The Church teaches that the word of God is alive and active (Hebrews 4:12).

The word of God, “is in its fullness is the mystery that has been kept** hidden for ages and generations**, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people (The Church)” (Colossians 1:26).

St. Paul states : "God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you ( Christ in The Church), the hope of glory… He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. (Colossians 1:27-28)

If one still wants to use the New Testament, ask the Church for further guidance.

MJ

Which Church has the Holy Spirit Martin?

Who should I turn to for these inspired explanations of the Scriptures?

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[Servant19]

I am already aware of the differences between Baha’i and Christianity, especially in regard to the denial of the Most Holy Trinity, however I have tried to answer any questions that you had for me. Michael Sours, Understanding Christian Beliefs p, 74-75. highlights that difference, which is that Christianity professes that Jesus Christ is God, but Baha’i belief is the Jesus Christ is possesses the attributes of God’s divinity but is not actually God in essence.

The recognition of Jesus’ Sonship and Divinity is apparent in many passages throughout the Bahá’í writings, but some Christians believe this recognition falls short, according to Christian doctrine, Jesus is more than divine: He is God. In other words, there is a distinction that concerns the difference between possessing the attributes of God’s divinity and actually being God in essence. Bahá’ís believe that through the physical and historical Person, Jesus Christ, the divine attributes of God were made manifest to the world, but that God’s essence is too transcendent to be fully embodied in flesh. From the Bahá’í point of view, this is the meaning of the Word becoming flesh, - the incarnation - as described in the first chapter of the Gospel according to John."

It must be denied by all Catholics because it opposed the Christian faith. The heresy from ancient times of Arius is the same or similar, with regard to the essence:
“He described the Son as a second, or inferior God, standing midway between the First Cause and creatures; as Himself made out of nothing, yet as making all things else; as existing before the worlds of the ages; and as arrayed in all divine perfections except the one which was their stay and foundation. God alone was without beginning, unoriginate; the Son was originated, and once had not existed. For all that has origin must begin to be.”

Barry, W. (1907). Arianism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

I’m not sure that the Baha’i Faith sees Jesus as a “midway” between First Cause and creation. He’s a lot closer to First Cause, indistinguishably so from a human beings perspective, but a mediator is not unScriptural:

1Tim 2:5 - For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

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[Techno2000]

It’s for another thread.

I want Eric to remain my friend

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We’re all friends here Servant19 …:grouphug:

 

[Vico]

I’m not sure that the Baha’i Faith sees Jesus as a “midway” between First Cause and creation. He’s a lot closer to First Cause, indistinguishably so from a human beings perspective, but a mediator is not unScriptural:

1Tim 2:5 - For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

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Catholics cannot accept First Cause.

Catechism of the Catholic Chuch

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance. …

The man Christ Jesus was created, however the Trinity is eternal uncreated essence. That is why we teach the God assumed human nature.

These things are a major difference between Baha’i and Christianity.

 

[MartinJordan]

Which Church has the Holy Spirit Martin?

Who should I turn to for these inspired explanations of the Scriptures?

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The Catholic Church of course. That’s why we’re here at CAF having dialogue day in and day out.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

The Catholic Church of course. That’s why we’re here at CAF having dialogue day in and day out.

MJ

Lol…love it!!

My orthodox friend tells me otherwise. That’s the reason I believe God speaks again from age to age authoritatively. He disapproves of division and would never speak in a manner that causes it.

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[Servant19]

Catholics cannot accept First Cause.

Catechism of the Catholic Chuch

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance. …

The man Christ Jesus was created, however the Trinity is eternal uncreated essence. That is why we teach the God assumed human nature.

These things are a major difference between Baha’i and Christianity.

Thank you Vico

I understand this. For me, this theology seems unreasonable and does not, when fully analysed confirm with monotheism.

I appreciate you dearly for your time in explaining the Catholic position and your gentle heart which shines through your posts.

God bless you, I thank God that these differences will never allow a Baha’i to ever state that you are satanic or doomed to displease God, for He will always embrace a true seeking heart

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[MartinJordan]

Lol…love it!!

My orthodox friend tells me otherwise. That’s the reason I believe God speaks again from age to age authoritatively. He disapproves of division and would never speak in a manner that causes it.

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Yes of course. And he will tell you however that Jesus is the head of the Church. A living breathing Church. Yet as far this thread is concerned he will also tell you who the Trinity is.

MJ