United States of Sodom and Gomarah

[Walcot]

God ordered Moses to wage war against the Midianites, because the latter had attempted to convert the Israelites to their religion. They Israelite soldiers killed every male Midianite, but initially spared the lives of the women and children. Moses was angry at this act of mercy, and in an act of near genocide, ordered that all of the women and children be murdered in cold blood, allowing only 32,000 female virgins to live. All of the booty, including the surviving girls and virgin women, was then divided into two equal portions: one for the soldiers and the rest for the people of Israel. 0.1% of the slaves from the first half and 2% of the slaves from the second half were considered the Lord’s share.

Some people might consider this as true fact, as condoned by God, but I don’t. The OT was never meant to be read as literal history.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you read in the Book of Leviticus, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah for their sins of adultery and homosexuality. Since America is the largest country-advocate for homosexuality, abortion, contraception, fornication, and divorce; doesn’t that mean that America could fall the same way that Sodom and Gomorah did?

God does not change! He is all-just!

Catholic,

No, this was a time when God was leading his people, formed his people and this was a place that was not part of the formed people of God…

God destroyed Jerusalem too.

You are extrapolating that God destroys countries where there is as you say what was found in Sodom and Gomorah…there was no one righteous…not just the sins…

26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28“Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

So, is it your belief that in America there are no more than 10 that are righteous…

 

[Walcot]

quote:
Stoning was a form of execution no different in concept from the electric chair, lethal injection, firing squad, guillotine, etc. There were also stringent rules for when this sentence was carried out. True, it is more brutal; but it was the most common method widely available. The goal in a stoning is for the head to take a hit first, numbing the body or knocking them unconscious, therefore preventing them from feeling most of the pain for the rest of the execution. There are better methods, sure, but hindsight’s 20x20, and this was the best they had come up with at the time.

They had the means of quicker ways to kill someone if they had wanted to. Stoning was(and still is) a deliberately cruel and publicly humiliating method of torture and killing.
I tend to agree that it is in concept no different from all the other methods of legalised murder you refer to.

 

[CopticChristian]

Personally, I agree with you. I expect the United States to fail in an oh-so-spectacular fashion. Any when it does, all the advocates will say that their views had absolutely nothing to do with it >_>

Who knows though. God is infinitely merciful as well as infinitely just. Maybe he will accept the pleas of those of us who are trying to live His will, fail though we may. We’re not down to the point where we can’t even find one good person… yet…

Prod,

You may want to read Genesis before venturing into agreement.

 

[Walcot]

Prod,

You may want to read Genesis before venturing into agreement.

Which bit?

 

[CopticChristian]

Which bit?

It was not addressed to you however in Genesis, the account of Sodom is that there was not even 10 righteous men…in other words every single dude was bad…the USA is not comparable…

26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28“Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

 

[ephesians4]

I’m sorry, but slavery has been the fate of millions of people who happened to fall under the control of other people or just be in the wrong place at the wrong time, for most of human history that we know about, and with few exceptions by culture or geography.

It is almost aberrant that we have in the last few hundred years in some parts of the world developed the idea that it is morally wrong (and it still continues now in some parts of the world). The removal of slavery from the world is a desirable ideal, especially for Christians, but quite probably a triumph over our nature, too. It has been a thread through most of human history and will probably be again when Western society is long gone. Lamentably in my opinion as I can think of few things which are as contrary to decent Christian values, but reality is that people revert to the same old behaviours tirelessly.

Any scriptures intended to inform our way of life that did not reference this common human experience in guidance, or to tell stories, that would have been pretty surprising, and it is downright disingenuous to present that as some kind of ringing endorsement of slavery.

 

[Catholic4Jesus]

I don’t know about God, but when St Paul sent the slave Onesimus back to Philemon he was definitely returning “property” to its rightful owner:

And since Paul was a Roman citizen, indeed, Bible scholars believe that Paul was imprisoned in Rome when he wrote to Philemon, we can be sure that Paul was aware of Roman law on these matters.

Additionally, in Ephesians 6:5 he says:

Again, Ephesus, although located in Greece, was a major Roman city, subject to Roman Law.

So do you believe that slavery is moral and that torturing them is the will of God?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Any scriptures intended to inform our way of life that did not reference this common human experience in guidance, or to tell stories, that would have been pretty surprising, and it is downright disingenuous to present that as some kind of ringing endorsement of slavery.

The Stoics (see sig) and many others condemned slavery before Christ.

The Stoics (and others) were mere humans.

Christians, on the other hand, had divine guidance. So there is no excuse for the reprehensible failure of Christians and the Church to address this matter properly, nor for the fact that they were promoting and expanding a more brutal system of slavery over 1,500 years after Christ.

I am thankful to those few Popes, priests and other faithful (Catholic or not) who saw good reason to speak out, but the reality is that slavery was the bread and butter of the Christian world for centuries.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

What I wrote was specifically in relation to the OT slavery as it pertained to how the Jewish people were required, by law, to treat their slaves.

You seem to have a very negative view of these forums. I’m not sure where it arises from. Widespread acceptance of homosexuality is an issue because it undermines the importance of the traditional family unit. I don’t care if you think it doesn’t; history has shown us that it does. (Greeks and Romans, to name just two examples).

I don’t know what you’re talking about with female submission. Probably some nonsense about women not being able to be priests. If you recall, this is derived form the example Christ himself set. He would have had no qualms about appointing a female to the role of Apostle (which would have evolved into the role of the priestess); as he had no qualms with disrupting any other social stigma that was opposed to God’s will. He didn’t, so we don’t. It’s not an active malicious decision, as supporters of woman priests seem to imply.

Check out this God-loving family-friendly thread to learn about the homosexualists and their homomafia using their homolobby to support the evil homoheresy homoagenda.


Look at this thread for some additional family-friendly ‘Christian’ discussion about the homosexualists and their homoheresies.

View this thread (it’s the one you’re in!!!) to learn about how God is going to commit genocide against the people of the United States… mostly, it’s the homosexualist again.

All of these threads were created recently, by the way. No digging.

As for the female problem, in a thread on female ordination there were several hints about the ‘true’ role of females in society. And no, the problem is not denying ordination to women - something that, for the record, I do not support anyway. Would that it were the only issue!

If you would prefer hyperbolic Islamophobia, check out this thread instead.

There’s more, I’m just tired right now so I’ll leave it at that.

 

[ephesians4]

The Stoics (see sig) and many others condemned slavery before Christ.

The Stoics (and others) were mere humans.

Christians, on the other hand, had divine guidance. So there is no excuse for the reprehensible failure of Christians and the Church to address this matter properly, nor for the fact that they were promoting and expanding a more brutal system of slavery over 1,500 years after Christ.

I am thankful to those few Popes, priests and other faithful (Catholic or not) who saw good reason to speak out, but the reality is that slavery was the bread and butter of the Christian world for centuries.

Again, the bread and butter of the Christian world? It was behaviour of most of the human race and will probably be in the future, most of the slave taking peoples have notbeen Christian, and if there has been any break from the norm special to Christianity, it is to occasionally speak out against or wind down this behaviour. If.

I do not see how you can present the eventual removal of this barbaric practice as somehow terrible because of the year in which it occurred, unless you are actively looking to make it look bad.

 

[Walcot]

I’m sorry, but slavery has been the fate of millions of people who happened to fall under the control of other people or just be in the wrong place at the wrong time, for most of human history that we know about, and with few exceptions by culture or geography.

It is almost aberrant that we have in the last few hundred years in some parts of the world developed the idea that it is morally wrong (and it still continues now in some parts of the world). The removal of slavery from the world is a desirable ideal, especially for Christians, but quite probably a triumph over our nature, too. It has been a thread through most of human history and will probably be again when Western society is long gone. Lamentably in my opinion as I can think of few things which are as contrary to decent Christian values, but reality is that people revert to the same old behaviours tirelessly.

Any scriptures intended to inform our way of life that did not reference this common human experience in guidance, or to tell stories, that would have been pretty surprising, and it is downright disingenuous to present that as some kind of ringing endorsement of slavery.

Yes, of course the scriptures will include this common human experience of slavery…but to give guidance for how it should be carried on, rather than condemning the practise…?
That seems to me to be a ringing endorsement. This is to be expected from books written by men of the times but not to be expected from the God who created all men equal.
The bible was never meant to be a literal history book. To take it literally and suppose it all inspired by God makes God appear to be a vain, vengeful, capricious, all too human character.

 

[Walcot]

Again, the bread and butter of the Christian world? It was behaviour of most of the human race and will probably be in the future, most of the slave taking peoples have notbeen Christian, and if there has been any break from the norm special to Christianity, it is to occasionally speak out against or wind down this behaviour. If.

I do not see how you can present the eventual removal of this barbaric practice as somehow terrible because of the year in which it occurred, unless you are actively looking to make it look bad.

The fact is, christians of the United States and Britain did very well out of slavery - parts of their economy depended on it… and indeed, it was other Christians who stood against it.
Perhaps the slave dependant Christians justified themselves by parts of the OT condoning slavery? The abolitionists, I would imagine, looked more to the teachings of Jesus as their guide.
I would point out that the practise hasn’t been removed - but I guess you meant the legal practise of it in the Western world.

 

[ephesians4]

The fact is, christians of the United States and Britain did very well out of slavery - parts of their economy depended on it… and indeed, it was other Christians who stood against it.
Perhaps the slave dependant Christians justified themselves by parts of the OT condoning slavery? The abolitionists, I would imagine, looked more to the teachings of Jesus as their guide.
I would point out that the practise hasn’t been removed - but I guess you meant the legal practise of it in the Western world.

The fact is, people all over the world kept and used slaves up until quite recently.

One must be wilfully misleading to suggest, historically, that the only civilisations to lead the charge in trying to expunge this norm from the world at least 5,000 years after it started, are somehow primarily responsible for its existence. These civilisations themselves were having vast numbers of people snatched by muslim pirates from the coastal villages of Britain and Europe only a few hundred years ago themselves.

Had these civilisations not existed and had they not had people arguing about this in terms of Christian ethics, there is every reason to believe slavery would be entirely common throughout the world right now as it always has been without powerful Christian liberal democracies in the world to ban it.

Listen, to me slavery is an abhorrent practice, and in no way am I interested in suggesting it was anything other than a sickening and disgusting evil against millions, but it is simply historically indefensible revisionism to consider Christianity or (since that’s where the main swipe is being taken) Western civilisation some sort of cradle of slavery. It is the terminal bud of millennia of slavery - an orgy of it like that must be decried but which was decried, which was regretted and which was stopped, unlike everybody else, who did it, regretted it and carried on with it regardless. It is the driving force (without duress) to end slavery.

 

[Walcot]

The fact is, people all over the world kept and used slaves up until quite recently.

One must be wilfully misleading to suggest, historically, that the only civilisations to lead the charge in trying to expunge this norm from the world at least 5,000 years after it started, are somehow primarily responsible for its existence. These civilisations themselves were having vast numbers of people snatched by muslim pirates from the coastal villages of Britain and Europe only a few hundred years ago themselves.

Had these civilisations not existed and had they not had people arguing about this in terms of Christian ethics, there is every reason to believe slavery would be entirely common throughout the world right now as it always has been without powerful Christian liberal democracies in the world to ban it.

Listen, to me slavery is an abhorrent practice, and in no way am I interested in suggesting it was anything other than a sickening and disgusting evil against millions, but it is simply historically indefensible revisionism to consider Christianity or (since that’s where the main swipe is being taken) Western civilisation some sort of cradle of slavery. It is the terminal bud of millennia of slavery - an orgy of it like that must be decried but which was decried, which was regretted and which was stopped, unlike everybody else, who did it, regretted it and carried on with it regardless. It is the driving force (without duress) to end slavery.

You have quite misunderstood me, I absolutely don’t try to suggest that modern Western civilisation is in any way responsible for slavery - how could I…that wouldn’t make sense?
My original point was that I don’t believe the condoning of slavery in the OT was ‘inspired by God’.
It is a sad fact that Western civilisation DID prosper from slavery directly or indirectly. The cities in the north of the UK which used cotton from America needed America to use slaves to keep prices down and the cities grew rich - the buildings testify to that. And many UK businessmen invested in the slave trade in various ways - even if they didn’t actually ‘meet’ a slave.
I know piracy was commonplace around Europe in modern history but I don’t think Muslim pirates bothered the British coast much - I could be wrong there, I’ll look into it. (piracy still happens now too)
Yes, slavery must have been practised since societies first developed and other Christians than the slave-owning ones have also been in the forefront of abolishing it where ever they could in more modern times. Unfortunately, it hasn’t gone away - even in the West. It’s just gone underground in our own countries and it’s unseen in other parts of the world - those children and indentured labourers who manufacture our cheap clothes to name but some.
I know churches work against slavery today and good on them!

 

[ephesians4]

You have quite misunderstood me, I absolutely don’t try to suggest that modern Western civilisation is in any way responsible for slavery - how could I…that wouldn’t make sense?
My original point was that I don’t believe the condoning of slavery in the OT was ‘inspired by God’.
It is a sad fact that Western civilisation DID prosper from slavery directly or indirectly. The cities in the north of the UK which used cotton from America needed America to use slaves to keep prices down and the cities grew rich - the buildings testify to that. And many UK businessmen invested in the slave trade in various ways - even if they didn’t actually ‘meet’ a slave.
I know piracy was commonplace around Europe in modern history but I don’t think Muslim pirates bothered the British coast much - I could be wrong there, I’ll look into it. (piracy still happens now too)
Yes, slavery must have been practised since societies first developed and other Christians than the slave-owning ones have also been in the forefront of abolishing it where ever they could in more modern times. Unfortunately, it hasn’t gone away - even in the West. It’s just gone underground in our own countries and it’s unseen in other parts of the world - those children and indentured labourers who manufacture our cheap clothes to name but some.
I know churches work against slavery today and good on them!

Oh definitely, don’t get me wrong I am not an apologist for empires, but empires are empires and do what they do.

A self-interested empire, with a very strongly Christian basis for doing so, decided this was the wrong thing to do and banned it when they were on top of the world and it was most lucrative, and if anything Christianity ought to consider this a triumph.

My initial point with ref to the slavery points though, was that slavery has always been part of the human world and that the fairly aberrant anti-slavery values that the Christian/liberal world has given birth to will probably not change that. There are still tens of millions of slaves in the world - the estimates tend to be around 20-30 million which is more than ever. There are a lot of people in charge of those slaves - however clever we like to think we have become, it is sadly far from an issue of the past.

As for the muslim pirates, they terrorized the coastal areas of Britain and the rest of Europe in the 17th century and snatched, it is estimated between 1 and 2 million people from their villages and towns as well as fishing boats etc. You may not have been aware of this, research is ongoing and discoveries have not been very well “publicized”, probably mainly because people aren’t very interested .

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Veritas

**I would like to see some proof that God destroyed Sodom. **

You want a replay?

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC01714CBEF6EB6E1

I sometimes think the Muslims have a point when they refer to the United States of
Sodom as the Great Satan.

 

[centurionguard]

If you read in the Book of Leviticus, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah for their sins of adultery and homosexuality. Since America is the largest country-advocate for homosexuality, abortion, contraception, fornication, and divorce; doesn’t that mean that America could fall the same way that Sodom and Gomorah did?

God does not change! He is all-just!

I think both United States and Canada would adequately fit the description of Sodom and Gomorrah in today’s idiom. In light of chastisments sent by God in trying to change the heart of sinful people who haven’t turned to Him. I tend to humbly think in an attempt to open blind sinful worldly eyes of pride, God being Supremely Just uses purposeful extreme weather and destructiion even if their is numerous deaths and serious injury. Strange how it is when we people are at are most vulnerable and dire of need, when all else is utter failure, we tend to cry out to God. Many take a blind look at this and will shove it aside. Some refuse to see a Just Merciful God rain down mortal chastisment and destruction on His sinful people of pride.

I don’t know I try to humbly examin my weaknesses and sinfulness throughout my life.
Looking back it was when I was in my most dire vulnerable state throughout various wretched storms of my life did I turn my spiritual growth towards God. How many times in my life has the story of the Prodical Son been replayed:blush: Or to look in hindsight and see yourself the beautiful Story of the Footprints. Sadness, Regret and mixed with some moments of joy.

Sodom and Gomorrah is very much ingrained in today’s society and culture in the way people live their lives. Many are Called by God, Few are Chosen, if we but have humble eyes to truly see and turn our lives for something good for our committed love to God. Not for our sake, but Jesus alone.

 

[speakttruth]

Precisely. You can’t.

Why are we assuming that a bunch of people who weren’t trained in historical methodology wrote trustworthy historical accounts? Or even that the accounts are intended to be historical?

Because the Catholic Church teaches it to be true. The Catholic church put the bible together and deemed it was the inspired word of God by the holy spirit and that she alone is the interpretor. If you had a Catechism it would be helpful. You don’t have to understand it, but you have to believe it and not pick and choose, but all of it or none of it. That’s what being a faithful Catholic means.
GB

 

[Charlemagne_II]

ephesians

**Listen, to me slavery is an abhorrent practice, and in no way am I interested in suggesting it was anything other than a sickening and disgusting evil against millions, but it is simply historically indefensible revisionism to consider Christianity or (since that’s where the main swipe is being taken) Western civilisation some sort of cradle of slavery. It is the terminal bud of millennia of slavery - an orgy of it like that must be decried but which was decried, which was regretted and which was stopped, unlike everybody else, who did it, regretted it and carried on with it regardless. It is the driving force (without duress) to end slavery. **

Yes, both ancient institutions of gladiatorial combat to the death and slavery began their decline under the influence of Christian popes and emperors from the 4th Century on.

In modern times, when the slave traffic from Africa resurged, there is a real question as to whether the Christians who bought and sold slaves were really Christian in name only. Certainly in North America those who most actively sought to end slavery in the 19th century were Christians. In more recent times it has been the various Christian groups all over the nation who marched with Martin Luther King to end discrimination against blacks, the last vest slavery.