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mitex
Guest
Listen to some of you. You all sound like Catholic versions of Charles Worley.
This is why homosexuals are not coming to Christ.
This is why homosexuals are not coming to Christ.
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GringaMamasita
Guest
and that is why we have the New Testament, so that Jesus can show us a path away from those things. God saw our shortcomings on this earth and found a way for us to have salvation and forgiveness for these shortcomings: Jesus on the Cross.
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davidv
Guest
No, this is not why. Persons with disordered attractions to the same sex don’t come to Christ because they would rather be a slaves to their sin, then humble themselves before God.
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mitex
Guest
Do you even know who Charles Worley is?
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davidv
Guest
I didn’t. Since we are on a Catholic forum, A non-catholic speaking in direct conflict with Catholic teaching on the proper treatment of the human person, he is hardly relevant to the discussion.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
mitex
As a protestant, would you put St. Paul in the same category with Charles Worley?
We Catholics believe what St. Paul preached.
Whom do you believe?
As a protestant, would you put St. Paul in the same category with Charles Worley?
We Catholics believe what St. Paul preached.
Whom do you believe?
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mitex
Guest
David I’m a celibate homosexual. What makes you so sure I’m violating the teachings on homosexuality? And what Charles Worley said has direct proportion here because every time I log on here I find another user who sounds like a Catholic version of him.
And Charlemagne where are you getting that I don’t agree with Paul? I’m so sick of everyone’s legalism on here, and hatred for people like me. Honestly I think the rhetoric on homosexuality is hindering the gospel.
Just say it’s a sin, and nothing more.
And Charlemagne where are you getting that I don’t agree with Paul? I’m so sick of everyone’s legalism on here, and hatred for people like me. Honestly I think the rhetoric on homosexuality is hindering the gospel.
Just say it’s a sin, and nothing more.
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davidv
Guest
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
mitex
And Charlemagne where are you getting that I don’t agree with Paul? I’m so sick of everyone’s legalism on here, and hatred for people like me. Honestly I think the rhetoric on homosexuality is hindering the gospel.
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Just say it’s a sin, and nothing more.**
Paul did not say it’s just a sin and nothing more.
“Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.” Romans 1
No one here at Catholic Answers has said anything more damning than Paul has said.
Stop likening Catholics here to Charles Worley!
And Charlemagne where are you getting that I don’t agree with Paul? I’m so sick of everyone’s legalism on here, and hatred for people like me. Honestly I think the rhetoric on homosexuality is hindering the gospel.
**
Just say it’s a sin, and nothing more.**
Paul did not say it’s just a sin and nothing more.
“Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.” Romans 1
No one here at Catholic Answers has said anything more damning than Paul has said.
Stop likening Catholics here to Charles Worley!
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ephesians4
Guest
Personally, I do not believe it is my place to judge homosexuals themselves and would consider it a grave matter if I were causing people to turn away from God and stray more with judgmental talk. I have, unlike some people, never had any kind of religious preoccupation with homosexuality, or even really thought about it much prior to recent events.
Unfortunately, however, quietly going on with my life, considering my faith my own business and loving people, so never harping on that sodomy is sinful to anyone, helping to campaign against those who mistreat and hurt and dishonour people on the grounds of that and so on has availed me naught to the good.
The “homosexual lobby” has come after my religion and its institutions, it has come after my culture and now my government has set in place legislation that will probably allow, by circuitous means, the mere holding of Christian beliefs to be considered immoral and punishable not only directly by law, but through the loss of one’s job, the withholding of public facilities to minister to the poor and needy, the sacking of our children’s teachers for failing to espouse adult sexual preferences to children and even the suggestion that one’s fitness to look after children may be considered doubtful because one is a Christian.
I didn’t ever go “knocking at the door” of gay people’s way of life, I was keen to let them live unmolested like everyone else, but they have come “knocking at the doors” of my church and my children’s education and my country’s law and my community. Christians have been subject to an unbelievable torrent of slander and abuse, good Christians who I know have personally campaigned against the demeaning of gay people, and for reparation where departed homosexuals were disgraced and mistreated in life - being labelled as monsters and homophobes just because they are called a Christian, and while hardly anybody really sweats it if homosexuals want to pretend they are married, if the legal repercussions in my country are as at least one barrister has suggested, they will amount to a minor criminalization of Christianity for a peripheral religious requirement of sexual ethics (which let’s face it is not in itself the central topic of Christianity).
Luckily this has shown me the error of my ways - I have obviously been “tolerant” in the face of something very bad - because anything which can become the basis of society or law calling God/Jesus/Christianity evil, is in itself a weapon of satan.
I don’t personally judge anyone for being gay because I am in truth no less a sinner than anyone else including a practising homosexual, but I have revised my life to ensure I am not offering any active or charitable support for homosexuality beyond the very most extreme human rights violations where people are literally hurt or demeaned. I will no longer be lying and telling people it is OK, and if my beautiful innocent children come home and tell me they have been taught homosexual propaganda at school, I will have been forced into telling them the rather unpalatable truth about something they had no reason to think about. This is something I would always have thought unthinkable until lately, for several reasons which should be obvious.
In short, being nice about it has been, I think, a terrible mistake.
The church is right about homosexuality. Homosexuality is disordered, and sodomy is intrinsically evil in its nature. I still disagree with demeaning and hurting people on the basis of it because this does not seem like decent human behaviour, but I have realised that the reward for the tacit tolerance of Christians who want everybody to be loved, is that the knife gets pushed in further and twisted a bit.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
ephesians
The church is right about homosexuality. Homosexuality is disordered, and sodomy is intrinsically evil in its nature. I still disagree with demeaning and hurting people on the basis of it because this does not seem like decent human behaviour, but I have realised that the reward for the tacit tolerance of Christians who want everybody to be loved, is that the knife gets pushed in further and twisted a bit.
This is a painfully honest reflection, and is consistent with the author of the sentiment that the only reason evil triumphs is for good men to stand by and say nothing.
The church is right about homosexuality. Homosexuality is disordered, and sodomy is intrinsically evil in its nature. I still disagree with demeaning and hurting people on the basis of it because this does not seem like decent human behaviour, but I have realised that the reward for the tacit tolerance of Christians who want everybody to be loved, is that the knife gets pushed in further and twisted a bit.
This is a painfully honest reflection, and is consistent with the author of the sentiment that the only reason evil triumphs is for good men to stand by and say nothing.
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Walcot
Guest
So to get back to my earlier point…stoning and genocide, condoned in the OT are things inspired by God and are therefore OK? In rejecting said stoning and genocide, todays Christians are not ‘picking and choosing’?
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ephesians4
Guest
Capital punishment is one thing - and a specific answer to that question was given by our Lord Jesus Christ - see John 8:5-12
Can you show us where the bible says it would be alright for Christians to commit genocide?
If you show us historical accounts of the Jews doing this with God’s say-so, or accounts of the vengeance of God, that will be a very disappointing show, because the scriptures and the people who follow them never pretend to be in a position of moral arbiters over God’s actions, which would be above our pay grade to say the least.
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Walcot
Guest
But it’s not just YOUR religion is it? You have to share Christianity with other people, some of whom understand that homosexuality is not disordered and intrinsically evil. And the people who you feel are being so nasty in the face of your judgments are not necessarily saying that God/Christianity is evil…they’re just accusing some Christians.
I see your signature is ‘judge not lest you be judged’…and yet you do just that. And now you give yourself the excuse for not being nice about it!
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ephesians4
Guest
There have never been any judgments against homosexuals in my life except once as a child, when I was roundly told that it was not proper Christian behaviour and stayed corrected, I have regularly helped to campaign for the human rights of, and spoken up about the treatment of, homosexual people in third world countries.
There has been not one solitary blow struck from my direction against homosexuals, and I do not think I am less of a sinner than any homosexual, sadly.
I now see that legal implications are being set in place for people who are Christian, and that Christians are being slandered as monstrous homophobes by a homosexual lobby at war with Christianity for reasons I do not know.
This has pointed me to the error of my ways. I have been tacitly bringing about something which must please the enemy greatly.
I have my signature thus to draw attention to my own words and any others in a conversation and underline if they violate the spirit of them, and as such I will meditate on your accusation, but off the cuff I think you have entirely misjudged me.
PS: If you think that homosexuality being disordered, and the acts of sodomy being intrinsically evil are my own terrible judgments, these are not mine but the teachings of the church which I should have been adhering to all these years.
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Walcot
Guest
It never fails to amaze me just how some Christians DO seem to ‘speak for God’ well over their pay grade…who’s a saint, who’s condemned etc etc.
So capital punishment is OK is it? Funny, I’m sure someone said ‘thou shalt not kill’…or was it ‘thou shalt not kill except…’
It doesn’t say anything in the OT, obviously, about how it would be OK for Christians to commit genocide! It just seems to condone it…it’s an acceptable way to punish people - to kill everyone in sight, men women and children. Endorsement God inspired?
Do you believe that the god of the OT is the same god that Jesus talked about? Seems like a different entity to me. One imagined by peoples of a time long gone by.
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ephesians4
Guest
Right, you’re going to have to draw your line of sight away from SOME Christians, and address the ones in front of you, because like anybody else, I cannot answer for other people.
Now you should probably go back and read what I posted, linked there was an answer to this question from Jesus Christ Himself.
Check out that answer, isn’t it a good answer? Isn’t it a decent and loving answer? Doesn’t it ring true?
Be honest.
Everything and anything would be OK for God regardless of what a human thought. God is God, and utterly inscrutable to you and I.
Consider the things the scriptures imply about Him when they describe Him - they seem to tell us God “experiences” time non-linearly, permeates the multiverse (or whatever actually exists) and can hold it all in His intellect and memory (or whatever He has that knows things)
If you and I cannot perceive as He does in an even slightly meaningful way, then logically we have not even got an idea of whether anything He does is good or bad or anything else, unless He informs us of this. As such, it is no more possible and makes no more sense for you or I to pass judgment on Him according to our tiny moral sensibilities, than to question how good a supernova seems to be at mathematics.
PS: Thanks for your comments earlier - you have drawn to my attention how angry I seemed, and that I need to think about whether I might drive people away from God through this.
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sw85
Guest
This is deeply disordered thinking. God’s doing a thing once does not therefore mean He is obligated to do the same thing always and forever, all the time. It doesn’t even begin to make sense.
But yes, no doubt America’s sins are deeply displeasing to God and will be justly punished, either in this life or the next.
Probably most of the Old Testament is at least somewhat historically inaccurate. So what? The Old Testament is not a canonized text because it’s a rigorously accurate depiction of historical truth because it contains truth about God, His nature, His expectations of us, etc.Precisely. You can’t.
Why are we assuming that a bunch of people who weren’t trained in historical methodology wrote trustworthy historical accounts? Or even that the accounts are intended to be historical?
Therefore we need not believe that there were literally places called Sodom and Gomorrah that were literally destroyed by God with fire from Heaven, etc. We need only believe that God is the kind of God would destroy the kind of places Sodom and Gomorrah were for the kinds of reasons He destroyed them. Otherwise there would be no reason for the Holy Spirit to have induced the inclusion of that story in the Old Testament.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Walcot
**I see your signature is ‘judge not lest you be judged’…and yet you do just that. And now you give yourself the excuse for not being nice about it! **
My impression of ephesian’s remarks is that he is merely asserting the right of people who know when something wrong is going on to stand up and be counted, and not lie down and let the tanks roll over them. An admirable sentiment, in my opinion. Why isn’t it one in your opinion as well?
**I see your signature is ‘judge not lest you be judged’…and yet you do just that. And now you give yourself the excuse for not being nice about it! **
My impression of ephesian’s remarks is that he is merely asserting the right of people who know when something wrong is going on to stand up and be counted, and not lie down and let the tanks roll over them. An admirable sentiment, in my opinion. Why isn’t it one in your opinion as well?
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Walcot
So capital punishment is OK is it?
You want to equate capital punishment with murder?
So capital punishment is OK is it?
You want to equate capital punishment with murder?
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