Unity

[Tomdstone]

Begs the question of what the Anglicans’ views on the Catholics are!

I am not sure that I understand why this would be begging a question?

 

[Rau]

Might depend on which Anglican you ask…There is now an “Anglican Ordinariate” within the Catholic Church. So we have parishes using many Anglican practices with Anglican pastors who have been validly ordained by the Catholic Church.

Peace
James

Yes, I read about just such an Ordinariate in Australia a few years ago. An interesting path.

 

[timmylee87]

Okay.

If you practice Catholicism, may I ask what it is that your protesting? How does one practice Catholicism and at the same time say they are protesting against it?

Okay.

If you wish to learn about Catholicism, than that I believe is perfectly fine and furthermore I applaud you for it, as knowing the differences between the two you can make an informed decision. Or do you mean, you wanted to do RCIA and take Holy Communion even though you didn’t want to convert to Catholicism?

Like what? If you mean some of the quotes I used above, I in no way meant to imply that you were an ‘enemy of the Church’ or anything of the kind, I apologise if that’s how you took it. I meant it in the regard that, “Love without truth is blind and truth without love is empty.” - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger



Protestant Define:
A member or follower of any of the Western Christian Churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church in accordance with the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran Churches.

May I ask how someone can be united to the Roman Catholic Church and at the same time protesting against it?

Okay.

I hope this has helped.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Im not protesting against the catholic church. To me its a difference in worship. To me I think we are being taught the same things, but I tend to lean more towards protestant worship. It works for me, and I enjoy it. In a few ways I’m beginning to think the term protestant doesn’t suit me, as I yearn to learn about all faiths. I think the term, christian suits me better.

I wish to learn catholicism for different reasons. My child for starters. He is blessed to have a protestant father and a catholic mother. Im taking rcia to learn so I can better educate myself in helping his education in religion. Plus like I’ve said I would like to learn it myself to better understand. Holy communion at a catholic church I know I cannot receive, and that’s fine. I receive it at my church (even though its grape juice lol)

As for the other poster its a unity in love. We are different our worship is different. Our faith is more or less the same. There should be love among all man, but as Christians shouldn’t we be able to show each other before spreading that?

Rueben, you were correct in post 2. I can’t say this thread went the way i hoped. There some people I agree with, as well as some who aren’t open to the idea.

I know where I stand and what I bekieve . I’ll look for you all in heaven and when I find you, give you a big hug because non of this will mattwr

 

[JRKH]

Im not protesting against the catholic church. To me its a difference in worship. To me I think we are being taught the same things, but I tend to lean more towards protestant worship. It works for me, and I enjoy it. In a few ways I’m beginning to think the term protestant doesn’t suit me, as I yearn to learn about all faiths. I think the term, christian suits me better.

I wish to learn catholicism for different reasons. My child for starters. He is blessed to have a protestant father and a catholic mother. Im taking rcia to learn so I can better educate myself in helping his education in religion. Plus like I’ve said I would like to learn it myself to better understand. Holy communion at a catholic church I know I cannot receive, and that’s fine. I receive it at my church (even though its grape juice lol)

As for the other poster its a unity in love. We are different our worship is different. Our faith is more or less the same. There should be love among all man, but as Christians shouldn’t we be able to show each other before spreading that?

Rueben, you were correct in post 2. I can’t say this thread went the way i hoped. There some people I agree with, as well as some who aren’t open to the idea.

I know where I stand and what I bekieve . I’ll look for you all in heaven and when I find you, give you a big hug because non of this will mattwr

The Key here - and the reason that you are disappointed with this thread - is contained in the section I bolded above - that we are being taught the same thing. This is not true even within the various protestant communions.
It’s not simply about differences in worship. There are many different teachings on matters that - to one group or the other - touch on salvation. These are not things that can be simply ignored for the sake of unity.

I absolutely agree that we need to approach these things with love and that there are many, many things that various Christian communions can do cooperatively to further the Gospel in the wider world.
It’s actually one of the things that I think the Church is very wise in…the approach of being open to dialogue and encouraging interaction but at the same time not minimizing the differences to be overcome.

Peace
James

 

[timmylee87]

The Key here - and the reason that you are disappointed with this thread - is contained in the section I bolded above - that we are being taught the same thing. This is not true even within the various protestant communions.
It’s not simply about differences in worship. There are many different teachings on matters that - to one group or the other - touch on salvation. These are not things that can be simply ignored for the sake of unity.

I absolutely agree that we need to approach these things with love and that there are many, many things that various Christian communions can do cooperatively to further the Gospel in the wider world.
It’s actually one of the things that I think the Church is very wise in…the approach of being open to dialogue and encouraging interaction but at the same time not minimizing the differences to be overcome.

Peace
James

Thank you. I would never ask for a catholic to give there church up, much like I hope the same towards me.
Imagine a world where we stand together, our strengths together will true spread of the word. I believe if catholic tradition meets protestant charamistity (I know I spelt that way off) comes together what happens?
One awesome christian who is truly real, holds the word to his heart.
It’s not about giving up ones church. Its about all together and being together. The word would not travel any faster if we just share arms together

 

[Matthew_Light]

If only we all loved our neighbour as we loved ourselves, then twenty thousand children would not die needlessly every day from grinding poverty and starvation, The world would live in peace, sadly we do not share this unity in love.

Hi Eric, I really appreciate the things you are saying.

Very important for us to remember this and orient our minds, hearts and lives accordingly.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I posted this in a separate thread. Over the course of the week I’ve learned about my brothers and sisters of different churches. So I thought of starting this thread this week, being holy week and all lol.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on unity? I think all of us should stop bickering and fighting. Its such small things we fight over. Its kinda like a family fued, in the end there is no winners… Unless, we all see we are the children of god, rather than point out our differences we point out each others strengths, and allow each others to build us higher. Catholics, I love how traditional your church is, its something I would love in mine time to time. I’ll share my outward thinking, bubbly energy with you! Lol

Just an example there, but seriously everyone, Any faith, let me hear your (name removed by moderator)ut, would us as Christians be better off together than divided? I don’t mean everyone converting, but our churches coming together. I believe and pray to my lord, God, Jesus died so that I may live, and the holy spirit is in my heart. Are we so different?

I agree, to see Christians of every church and belief love and respect one another, work together, and not fight over differences of belief - that is a beautiful vision and one well worth working for!

 

[JRKH]

Thank you. I would never ask for a catholic to give there church up, much like I hope the same towards me.
Imagine a world where we stand together, our strengths together will true spread of the word. I believe if catholic tradition meets protestant charamistity (I know I spelt that way off) comes together what happens?
One awesome christian who is truly real, holds the word to his heart.
It’s not about giving up ones church. Its about all together and being together. The word would not travel any faster if we just share arms together

A wonderful sentiment but how would that work.
Suppose two Christians are sitting together with some non-believers - discussing faith and morals and what is required for salvation. One of the Christians says that once you accept Christ and are Baptized you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do. The other Christian believes this is wrong and will endanger the soul of anyone converted by such teaching for it is, as he firmly believes, is a serious error. Because of this he must speak up and charitably points out this error to his brother. One CAN fall away after accepting Christ and being baptized.

What do you think would happen next?
Would you say that these two Christians are effectively spreading the word?
Will the non-believers be more or less likely to come to Jesus?

I don’t say this to be harsh…but to be honest. Yes we need to seek closer ties. Yes we need to work together to spread the Gospel. BUT we also all need to spread the same Gospel.
Differences in practice are one thing. Differences in Doctrine that touches on salvation - that is another thing.

Oh and by the way - The Catholic Church already has met the Charismatic. There is in fact a Charismatic tradition within the Catholic Church.
Just thought you would like to know.

I agree, to see Christians of every church and belief love and respect one another, work together, and not fight over differences of belief - that is a beautiful vision and one well worth working for!

Love and Respect yes - - - Not fight over differences of belief - - - How do you avoid this when you believe that the difference could send your brother to hell? We bicker because we Love.

Peace
James

 

[timmylee87]

A wonderful sentiment but how would that work.
Suppose two Christians are sitting together with some non-believers - discussing faith and morals and what is required for salvation. One of the Christians says that once you accept Christ and are Baptized you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do. The other Christian believes this is wrong and will endanger the soul of anyone converted by such teaching for it is, as he firmly believes, is a serious error. Because of this he must speak up and charitably points out this error to his brother. One CAN fall away after accepting Christ and being baptized.

What do you think would happen next?
Would you say that these two Christians are effectively spreading the word?
Will the non-believers be more or less likely to come to Jesus?

I don’t say this to be harsh…but to be honest. Yes we need to seek closer ties. Yes we need to work together to spread the Gospel. BUT we also all need to spread the same Gospel.
Differences in practice are one thing. Differences in Doctrine that touches on salvation - that is another thing.

Oh and by the way - The Catholic Church already has met the Charismatic. There is in fact a Charismatic tradition within the Catholic Church.
Just thought you would like to know.

Love and Respect yes - - - Not fight over differences of belief - - - How do you avoid this when you believe that the difference could send your brother to hell? We bicker because we Love.

Peace
James

I knew that about the catholic church, at that time I couldn’t think of any other example though. Sometimes I’m bad with words.

To answer your main point, yes it would be confusing for some to fully grasp our religion. The point about protestantism that once baptised we are saved is wrong. I truely believe that bring baptised isn’t enough, the protestant in me says its nothing more than a symbol, the catholic I’ve learned is it is nessecary, but doesn’t save us. What saves us is our good will and following that of our teacher. I know how grace works within the catholic church, but many mis understandings is protestant don’t just think giving all everything and soul to Jesus gives us a spot in heaven, we also must work for “our” grace and work towards us being better christians. Just because we don’t have sacraments and such doesn’t mean we are less christian. Our goal is the same! I may have choose route 88 and not 77, but guess what? Those highways go the same place! Honestly I think when we all reach heaven this will be so non topic because will we ALL be in Christ’s arms.
The division will end in heaven, I just wish it would here too

 

[JRKH]

I knew that about the catholic church, at that time I couldn’t think of any other example though. Sometimes I’m bad with words.

To answer your main point, yes it would be confusing for some to fully grasp our religion. The point about protestantism that once baptised we are saved is wrong. I truely believe that bring baptised isn’t enough, the protestant in me says its nothing more than a symbol, the catholic I’ve learned is it is nessecary, but doesn’t save us. What saves us is our good will and following that of our teacher. I know how grace works within the catholic church, but many mis understandings is protestant don’t just think giving all everything and soul to Jesus gives us a spot in heaven, we also must work for “our” grace and work towards us being better christians. Just because we don’t have sacraments and such doesn’t mean we are less christian. Our goal is the same! I may have choose route 88 and not 77, but guess what? Those highways go the same place! Honestly I think when we all reach heaven this will be so non topic because will we ALL be in Christ’s arms.

Actually I think that you missed my main point.
My main point relates to the scenario that I presented. Since you disagree with OSAS, you could even place yourself in the scenario. Would you feel that you and he had been taught the same things? Would you feel that you were sharing the same Gospel?
Wouldn’t you feel it your duty to correct your brother in Christ? After all, you don’t want people thinking they can sin with impunity once they have accepted Christ.

How would you go about resolving this difference of opinion - - or more correctly - - this error in teaching? After all - only one of you can be right and this touches profoundly on the salvation of souls.

I’m not trying to be difficult…I applaud you desire and it is the desire of many of us to become reunified with our separated brothers…But there are hard realities that must be faced and my scenario is just one simple one.

How do we resolve this - - What does Scripture tell us to do?

The division will end in heaven, I just wish it would here too

Yes - quite so.
But in heaven - those who got it wrong won’t be there…

Peace
James

 

[Rau]

…But in heaven - those who got it wrong won’t be there…

Peace
James

Jim, it is beyond human competence to make that statement,

 

[JRKH]

Jim, it is beyond human competence to make that statement,

Actually it is not. It is wrong to try to say a given individual is not in heaven.
It is not wrong to make a general statement such as I made above.

Peace
James

 

[timmylee87]

But in heaven - those who got it wrong won’t be there…

Peace
James

That’s extremely an ignorante way of thinking about it. Since on’t believe in god the same as way as you do I will cast into hell?

My brothers and sisters (catholic and protestant) who have seen unity and I love you all for sharing. My brother who aren’t so open minded I still love you, but understand that we all won’t be catholic, nor will we be all protestant. Seems our ideas about unity are different, one thinks its love others think it’s through the church.

 

[Rau]

Actually it is not. It is wrong to try to say a given individual is not in heaven.
It is not wrong to make a general statement such as I made above.

Peace
James

It is entirely wrong. God alone decides in each individual case, and consequently you cannot make a declaration for a class.

 

[JRKH]

That’s extremely an ignorante way of thinking about it. Since on’t believe in god the same as way as you do I will cast into hell?

It is entirely wrong. God alone decides in each individual case, and consequently you cannot make a declaration for a class.

All right - I give - I should not have said it. I thought the smiley face at the end would communicate the tongue in cheek intent of the statement.

I don’t want my misguided attempt at humor to derail the thread.

Timmy - I am much more interested in your views on the rest of my post. What can you offer on that subject?

Peace
James

 

[Eric_Hyom]

A wonderful sentiment but how would that work.
Suppose two Christians are sitting together with some non-believers - discussing faith and morals and what is required for salvation. One of the Christians says that once you accept Christ and are Baptized you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do. The other Christian believes this is wrong and will endanger the soul of anyone converted by such teaching for it is, as he firmly believes, is a serious error. Because of this he must speak up and charitably points out this error to his brother. One CAN fall away after accepting Christ and being baptized.

This situation happens fairy frequently; as I am part of an interdenominational street Pastor team. When people understand that we are from different churches, they seem surprised that we are together and they want to know why? It seems to offer profound ways of engaging their hearts and minds, they will ask us questions.

There is only One Jesus, we are all created by the same God and the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. We put Jesus first, we are working and praying together, barriers can be overcome, and people seem genuinely pleased that Christians are doing things together.

I feel that if it were all Catholics doing the same thing, people would not engage with us so well.

 

[timmylee87]

James, I love how strong willed you are. Kinda funny cause of how we are both rocks, just on different sores.

To give you more insight into what I think. I don’t think I’m right, nor do I think your wrong. The left foot cannot walk without the right. Saying that I mean even though we are different does that not mean we are seperate in chirst? I love how you proclaim your faith, its awesome! I’m the same.

I’ll say it again, we have different churches, but when you corner a christian, tradition and faith shine more than gold. Thats a common thought. My catholic brother, if anyone to put you in a corner, my brother, I would be the first to be behind you.

 

[josh987654321]

.

I don’t understand you timmylee87, where is the search for truth? where is the mention of truth in all of this? I believe it’s good that you study both, but I believe the whole point of studying both is so that you can make an informed decision on truth. If you forsake truth in your search for love and unity, I believe you will get neither unity nor love. Furthermore, if everyone is going to heaven anyway, what is the point of evangelizing or even knowing the truth? and thus you remove Christ’s whole purpose of even coming, so that we may have life and have it in it’s fullest.

A classic example for why your unity in love without truth will not work I believe is same sex marriage, (The PCUSA recently voted in favour of it in their church) loving I believe can be polar opposites in that regard. Either same sex marriage is right or it’s wrong, and depending on which one it is I believe will determine who is actually doing good.

I refer back to Pope Benedict -
Benedict vs. the Dictatorship of Relativism by Benjamin Wiker:

ncregister.com/blog/benjamin-wiker/benedict-vs.-the-dictatorship-of-relativism/

In his homily to the 2005 conclave that would soon choose him as the successor of Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger warned those attending, “We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires.”

This is a warning that Pope Benedict has not tired of repeating during his pontificate.

Relativism is a poison. It attacks our most human capacity, the capacity to seek and know the truth, including the moral truth. A dictatorship of relativism imposes by real cultural force (and even by political force) a no-standard standard, a command that all must imbibe this poison.

At first blush, it would seem contradictory to have relativism united to dictatorship. Isn’t relativism just a healthy dose of humility, a way to cool the intellectual or religious hot-head who insists, “I, only I, have the truth”?

The proof of the pudding of relativism is in the eating. How has it fared?

“In recent years I find myself noting,” Cardinal Ratzinger said in his Without Roots, “how the more relativism becomes the generally accepted way of thinking, the more it tends toward intolerance. Political correctness … seeks to establish the domain of a single way of thinking and speaking. Its relativism creates the illusion that it has reached greater heights than the loftiest philosophical achievements of the past. It presents itself as the only way to think and speak — if, that is, one wishes to stay in fashion. … I think it is vital that we oppose this imposition of a new pseudo-enlightenment, which threatens freedom of thought as well as freedom of religion.”

That last point is key. While appearing to be the very essence of neutrality and equity — “all views are equal and equally valid” — it actually undermines both the freedom of thought and the freedom of religion. As to the latter, it does so (ironically) as a new religion itself, “a new ‘denomination’ that places restrictions on religious convictions and seeks to subordinate all religions to the super-dogma of relativism.”

As Cardinal Ratzinger noted in his Truth and Tolerance, “relativism … in certain respects has become the real religion of modern man.” It has become, especially in Europe, but now increasingly in America, the religion that stands at the heart of modern secular civilization in the way that Christianity defined the heart of Christendom.

It is the religion, Pope Benedict insists, which the Church must combat in the third millennium for the sake of civilization itself.** A civilization built upon dogmatic relativism is one that ensures its own destruction. It is also a civilization in which Christianity — challenging dogmatic relativism with the proclamation that Jesus Christ himself is the Way, the Truth and the Life — must be persecuted.**

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen 'Love is not tolerance':

Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body; but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

“Love without truth is blind and truth without love is empty.” - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

“The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes; she is tolerant in practice because she loves.”

• Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P

I believe you will probably accuse me of being ignorant, closed minded or intolerant, which is okay, I don’t mind whatever you wish to call me and I’ll say some prayers for you anyway, I personally believe though, that your ‘tolerance’ comes from a lack of belief. As I believe someone who knows the truth or has laboured in search for the truth and loves his or her neighbour, is not tolerant of the lies that have entered into contest with it.

I hope this has helped, Please feel free to reply/refute anything I’ve said.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[JRKH]

This situation happens fairy frequently; as I am part of an interdenominational street Pastor team. When people understand that we are from different churches, they seem surprised that we are together and they want to know why? It seems to offer profound ways of engaging their hearts and minds, they will ask us questions.

There is only One Jesus, we are all created by the same God and the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. We put Jesus first, we are working and praying together, barriers can be overcome, and people seem genuinely pleased that Christians are doing things together.

I feel that if it were all Catholics doing the same thing, people would not engage with us so well.

May God continue to guide you in your work. Sounds like great stuff.

But I also suspect that it is largely what St Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians as “milk”.
Now don’t get me wrong, this is fine for what and where you are working for I am sure that many you encounter are not ready for “solid food”.
But there will come a time when these questions will come up - which of the conflicting teachings is right. I just want us all to have the correct answer to those questions…and frankly agreeing to disagree (which is often where we end up) is not satisfactory.

Peace
James

 

[josh987654321]

The Key here - and the reason that you are disappointed with this thread - is contained in the section I bolded above - that we are being taught the same thing. This is not true even within the various protestant communions.
It’s not simply about differences in worship. There are many different teachings on matters that - to one group or the other - touch on salvation. These are not things that can be simply ignored for the sake of unity.

I absolutely agree that we need to approach these things with love and that there are many, many things that various Christian communions can do cooperatively to further the Gospel in the wider world.
It’s actually one of the things that I think the Church is very wise in…the approach of being open to dialogue and encouraging interaction but at the same time not minimizing the differences to be overcome.

Peace
James