Universal approval of Latin Missal could be on the way

[batteddy]

I would love to see a Liturgy more continuous with what was going on before the Novus Orod restored.

But I might change a few things in the Tridentine Mass:

I would like the cycle of readings to be expanded. Maybe not the current N.O. cycle of readings (I’d try to have one year be mainly like the classic old tridentine cycle) but I’d have a three year cycle instead of one.

I’d also re-add the “prophecy,” the ancient liturgical name for the old testament reading, that was dropped in the Roman rite before the epistle. It opens up the old testament, and gives a more logical and expanded place for the role of the minor order of Lector (Lector=Prophecy, Subdeacon=Epistle, Deacon=Gospel) Otherwise, he just has limited roles on special days because other ministers read all the readings.

I would probably also move the dismissal (ita missa est…) to AFTER the Last Gospel…that’s just always seemed to make more sense to me.

 

[JW10631]

Let us pray for this. We can hope -
for the end of the ugliness and banality and havoc that has wracked the Church since VII.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JW10631:

Let us pray for this. We can hope -
for the end of the ugliness and banality and havoc that has wracked the Church since VII.

You think this will do it? I would deny that it’s all been ugliness and banality and havoc and what HAS been of those things can hardly be laid at the feet of the Pauline Mass’s advent or the TLM’s decline.

 

[whiteyacht]

The New Liturgical Movement has the latest info in the blogosphere. Friday can’t get here soon enough!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

batteddy:

I would love to see a Liturgy more continuous with what was going on before the Novus Orod restored.

But I might change a few things in the Tridentine Mass:

I would like the cycle of readings to be expanded. Maybe not the current N.O. cycle of readings (I’d try to have one year be mainly like the classic old tridentine cycle) but I’d have a three year cycle instead of one.

I’d also re-add the “prophecy,” the ancient liturgical name for the old testament reading, that was dropped in the Roman rite before the epistle. It opens up the old testament, and gives a more logical and expanded place for the role of the minor order of Lector (Lector=Prophecy, Subdeacon=Epistle, Deacon=Gospel) Otherwise, he just has limited roles on special days because other ministers read all the readings.

I would probably also move the dismissal (ita missa est…) to AFTER the Last Gospel…that’s just always seemed to make more sense to me.

I would get rid of the Asperges, except in the Easter season. Needless to say, the priest wouldn’t wear the cope at all (except at Benediction). I’d leave the Confietor pretty much alone, except we’d have the Sign of Peace immediately after the words of absolutioin. There’d be 3 readings, one OT, one Psalm, and one epsitle, in addition to the Gospel reading. The entire thing would be in the vernacular and it would be according to the Pauline Missal.

 

[countertenor]

I hope you’re right. BTW Holy Rosary is awsome. That’s where I go to mass well there and Immaculate Heart when I sing for mass is cantores in eclessia on Saturdays

QUOTE=arieh0310]Yes, it is Holy Rosary.

I am not skeptical about B16 allowing ad orientem without the local bishop’s approval. B16 has been quite adamant for decades that the ad orientem posture was of apostolic origin and should not have been discarded. But, maybe I am just being hopeful.

 

[frommi]

JW10631:

Let us pray for this. We can hope -
for the end of the ugliness and banality and havoc that has wracked the Church since VII.

This indult is not going to cure all of these ‘problems’ you seem to be seeing in the church.

Quit calling the church ‘banal’ and ‘ugly’. I mean, come on, you have an opinion, thats nice…but I don’t understand why you feel you can blast the church and her ministers in this way

 

[Brendan]

frommi:

This indult is not going to cure all of these ‘problems’ you seem to be seeing in the church.

Quit calling the church ‘banal’ and ‘ugly’. I mean, come on, you have an opinion, thats nice…but I don’t understand why you feel you can blast the church and her ministers in this way

If you read what JW actually wrote, you would see JW wasn’t saying the Church was banal and ugly, but rather there was banality and ugliness that are causing havoc in the Church.

There is a BIG difference between what was said and the accusation you made.

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

This indult is not going to cure all of these ‘problems’ you seem to be seeing in the church.

How do you know this? Why not give it a try? I certainly don’t know if it will help - but I truly believe it will.

For 40 years we’ve been trying all the “Spirit of VII” stuff - and that certainly has not worked. Apostasy has grown rampant. Disbelief and unbelief have grown. Malcatechism has been endemic. Vocations have plummeted. Pederasty, homosexuality and cover-up have been the hallmarks of the clergy and episcopacy for the last 10-15 years. I say, maybe we need to try what was working before all these calamities. OK it wasn’t perfect, but it was a great deal better by any post-VII measure you can think of. Maybe we need an authentic implementation of VII - and rolling back the clock may be the way to go. Certainly continuing down the same road we’ve been on since 1965 is leading us to the cliff. Already too many have fallen off.

 

[frommi]

johnnykins:

How do you know this? Why not give it a try? I certainly don’t know if it will help - but I truly believe it will.

For 40 years we’ve been trying all the “Spirit of VII” stuff - and that certainly has not worked. Apostasy has grown rampant. Disbelief and unbelief have grown. Malcatechism has been endemic. Vocations have plummeted. Pederasty, homosexuality and cover-up have been the hallmarks of the clergy and episcopacy for the last 10-15 years. I say, maybe we need to try what was working before all these calamities. OK it wasn’t perfect, but it was a great deal better by any post-VII measure you can think of. Maybe we need an authentic implementation of VII - and rolling back the clock may be the way to go. Certainly continuing down the same road we’ve been on since 1965 is leading us to the cliff. Already too many have fallen off.

As Cardinal Arinze once pointed out, the reason we think there weren’t abuses in the Tridentine rite was that no one knew what was going on in the first place.

I don’t think Vatican II can be held responsible for sexual abuse…seeing as how a lot of the cases are from more than 50 years ago…but to each his own.

 

[johnnykins]

frommi:

As Cardinal Arinze once pointed out, the reason we think there weren’t abuses in the Tridentine rite was that no one knew what was going on in the first place.

Idon’t know about that. I think the reason is that the abuses of the Tridentine liturgy (typically mumbling at supersonic speed) was so much less egregious than what has taken place since is the real reason. I’d sure be interested in a site for his “quote.” I’m not saying he didn’t say that, I just don’t believe it.

I don’t think Vatican II can be held responsible for sexual abuse…seeing as how a lot of the cases are from more than 50 years ago…but to each his own.

I don’t think VII can either - I think the “SPIRIT OF VII” which has been the worst thing to happen to the Church since the Babylonian Captivity greatly increased the problem. And I believe you will find the vast majority of cases are post-VII.

 

[KathleenElsie]

sneakers:

Laus Deo indeed!! Please God, let this be true!!

I went to my first Tridentine Mass in 40-45 years yesterday (April 2), and I cried all the way through mass. It was so very beautiful. I now know what they mean by “sublime”. There was no disrespectful talking, no silly music, no jokes from the pulpit. The tabernacle was in a place of honor - front and center. There were no “altar-servers” - there was altar boys. The statues were covered up for Lent. There was quiet respect and reverence, gregorian chant, genuflecting, and, best of all, I got to kneel at the altar rail and receive on the tongue!! I could hardly contain my joy! It’s a 65 mile drive for me, one way, but it was worth it.

We live in the same area. We have asked for an Indult Latin Tridentine Mass and have been turned down. We know how you feel. Our Parish is St. Edwards in Herminie and to get to an approved Tridentine Mass we must go into the next county.

The news from Rome is hopeful. But, if the Tridentine Mass still needs to be “approved” I fear it will be many years till we get one here. We were told that Erie was granted one by the same Bishop as we now have here. There are two un-approved Tridentine Masses in the area just not one that will fulfill the Sunday obligation for us.

Keep praying.

 

[JW10631]

Frommi, before you accuse me of saying something, read what I wrote.

This past Sunday, my wife and I attended Mass at St. Michael Chruch in Annandale, Virginia. St. Michael is a “modern-looking” chuch building - it is circular, or better-put, an octagon shape.

No matter. The Mass, a Novus Ordo, was beautiful. There was Holy Water in the fonts. There were altar boys. The choir sang the *Kyrie *(in Greek), the *Sanctus *andthe Agnus Dei in Latin. The hymns were beautiful. When it was time for Holy Communion, only priests distributed the Blessed Sacament.

St. Michael’s has produced many of the vocations in the Arlington, VA Diocese.
They celebrate the Novus Ordo exactly as it is supposed to be celebrated. My wife was in tears.

If everybody had Mass like St. Michael’s or at EWTN, then the Novus Ordo would be fine.

They don’t. Clearly, things are wrong. Clearly, things need to be set right.

At my mother’s parish, the misic director thinks she can sing, but she sounds like a car in dire need of a brake job. Nor do I care to sing or listen to O Flowing River during Easter Vigil Mass, or being told I have to stand from the Great Amen through the end of Holy Communion. If Jesus walked through the doors of that or any church, I would be on my knees!

+Pope John Paul II+ of eternal memory called for the widespread permission and use of the 1962 Missal. Therefore, it should and must be done. Fortunately, Bishop Wuerl in Pittsburgh has permitted the Latin Mass at St. Boniface on the North Side.

I do not and have never called for the elimination of the Novus Ordo or of the abolishment of the vernacular. I want to see a better translation and the responses in Greek and Latin, with a return of Gergorian and Polyphonic Chant. In addition, the “modern” architecture should be imploded - everywhere. A church should look like a church.

 

[Isidore_AK]

JW10631:

In addition, the “modern” architecture should be imploded - everywhere. A church should look like a church.

Just say “No!” to the flying saucer design philosophy, and the Mother-ship design committee!

 

[sneakers]

+Pope John Paul II+ of eternal memory called for the widespread permission and use of the 1962 Missal. Therefore, it should and must be done. Fortunately, Bishop Wuerl in Pittsburgh has permitted the Latin Mass at St. Boniface on the North Side.

I do not and have never called for the elimination of the Novus Ordo or of the abolishment of the vernacular. I want to see a better translation and the responses in Greek and Latin, with a return of Gergorian and Polyphonic Chant. In addition, the “modern” architecture should be imploded - everywhere. A church should look like a church.

 

[sneakers]

+Pope John Paul II+ of eternal memory called for the widespread permission and use of the 1962 Missal. Therefore, it should and must be done. Fortunately, Bishop Wuerl in Pittsburgh has permitted the Latin Mass at St. Boniface on the North Side.

I do not and have never called for the elimination of the Novus Ordo or of the abolishment of the vernacular. I want to see a better translation and the responses in Greek and Latin, with a return of Gergorian and Polyphonic Chant. In addition, the “modern” architecture should be imploded - everywhere. A church should look like a church.

St. Boniface is the church I attended several days ago. The Mass was so beautiful! The reverence, the respect of the Lord in the Blessed Sacrement was what I had been yearning for. I drove 65 miles from Indiana, Pa. to go to the high mass there… It was worth it. I have not stopped thinking of it since that day.

I also agree with you about the Novus Ordo though. If it was done correctly, I wouldn’t have a problem either. Our Lord deserves better than He is getting now in the poorly-done NO masses of most churches today.

 

[sneakers]

KathleenElsie:

We live in the same area. We have asked for an Indult Latin Tridentine Mass and have been turned down. We know how you feel. Our Parish is St. Edwards in Herminie and to get to an approved Tridentine Mass we must go into the next county.

Keep praying.

Are you in the Greensburg Diocese? I heard a group went to the (then) new bishop Brandt and asked for an Indult mass and he flatly refused. I sent him an e-mail around the same time. I’m convinced there would be an increase in the number of vocations if we went to the Latin Mass.

 

[JW10631]

Retired Bishop Anthony Bosco of the Greensburg (Pennsylvania) Diocese refused to permit the TLM before Bishop Brandt.

The Greensburg Diocese is hurting for pristly vocations. There are more parishes than there are priests in the Greensburg Diocese. This is one of the reasons that Bishop Bosco refused the TLM indult. I wonder why the Greensburg Diocese was created out of the Pittsburgh Diocese - it doesn’t make sense to me. Many dioceses are bigger than the Pittsburgh and Greensburg dioceses put together.

It is clear that there are bishops who appear to be hostile to the TLM. This should not be the case.

Bishop Trautman of the Erie ¶ diocese has been on the forefront of “inclusive” language (think The Creator, the Sanctifier, the Redeemer instead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and God - the Eternal Parent). I would not be optimistic about the Erie Diocese offering the TLM.

 

[KathleenElsie]

sneakers:

Are you in the Greensburg Diocese? I heard a group went to the (then) new bishop Brandt and asked for an Indult mass and he flatly refused. I sent him an e-mail around the same time. I’m convinced there would be an increase in the number of vocations if we went to the Latin Mass.

Yes, Greensburg Diocese. We go into the Pittsburgh Diocese for homeschool support and for Traditional support. Many people have been going into Pittsburgh for Mass, Catholic Schooling and HS support. Must admit the priests don’t know how to take my daughter and I as we still wear skirts and cover for Mass.

We also believe that vocations would increase with more traditional values and form.

 

[jpgsister]

I hope that this isn’t just another rumor. It seems like Pope Benedict would grant a universal indult for the traditional latin mass. He has always had a soft spot for this Mass I started praying a novena to st Therese on Monday when I read this forum at school on Monday. I"ve only been to one traditional latin mass and that was on Nov. 20th of 2005, but I have instantly fell in love with it and ordered my 1962 missal from FSSP about 6 weeks ago. Really hope this is true

AD MEJORUM DEI GLORIA