Universal catholic church and The Catholic church

[steve-b]

From a Catholic standpoint, the Catholic Church and the universal catholic church are the same thing.

From a Protestant standpoint, the Catholic Church is one tradition within the universal catholic church, which contains all true Christians.

For clarification,

Bp Irenaeus, in the year, ~ 180 a.d. , who was taught by Bp Polycarp, who was himself, a direct disciple of St John the apostle, wrote in his work "Against Heresies" a good definition of Catholic, and the Catholic Church.

From Bk 1, ch 10. para 3

He writes

“while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world”

Also

moving ahead in his work, to Bk 3, Ch 3, pp 2-3

He writes

" Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil] self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church], on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem]."

then he goes on to name (paragraph 3) 12 bishops by name, and a brief autobiography , who are the succession , from Peter, in Rome, down to his day.

So, in these 2 selections from Irenaeus, we see Catholic Church means, the faith is the same throughout the world, and the Church of Rome is the Church everyone is to agree with, and Irenaeus explains that this comes from Peter and Paul who were giving this direction from Rome.

Irenaeus (in this case, in his day,) he’s writing against the Gnostic heretics. And heresies continue “the great heresies”

Episcopalian:

If you ever see the Nicene or Apostles Creed in a Catholic church, you’ll notice in the last bit where they say: “we believe in the holy Catholic Church” they capitalize the “C”, while if you see it on a Protestant one, the “C” is not capitalized.

As you see from the link above, Protestantism is a heresy from the 16th century

 

[annad347]

As you see from the link above, Protestantism is a heresy from the 16th century

Why, if they believe the same, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour. In order to be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven you must be born again?

 

[annad347]

Im starting to think, from a lot of what I’m reading is that man’s trust, understanding, greed, and pride is the difference between a universal cathoic church and a Catholic church.

 

[steve-b]

As you see from the link above, Protestantism is a heresy from the 16th century

Why, if they believe the same, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour. In order to be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven you must be born again?

annad347:

Im starting to think, from a lot of what I’m reading is that man’s trust, understanding, greed, and pride is the difference between a universal cathoic church and a Catholic church.

Anna, for some clarification, on your understanding

There are groups that are NOT Catholic, but want to call themselves Catholic, by redefining the name Catholic for their own purposes. There is one Catholic Church. I’ve given various links over time on different threads to describe this . You responded to one post with links on this thread, but I don’t see where the links I gave were opened.

And as the CCC defines the following terms,
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. " Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

In addition

When Paul wrote to the Church of Rome, he warns against , and says this about , those who divide from the Church. And in Galatians, he gives the consequences to those who divide.

Btw, the Greek word for Division / dissension διχοστασίαι used in Rm 16:17-21 & Gal 5:19-21 is the same Greek word. Open the link for διχοστασίαι to see the definition

SO

Based on the consequences for the sin of division, does it look like an itty bitty sin, or a whopper of a sin?

AND

To the point you make,

( believe the same, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour, In order to be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven you must be born again)

If Jesus is really Lord and Savior, then it goes without saying one needs to obey Him.

Can those who separate from the only Church the Catholic Church He established, on Peter and those in perfect unity with Peter, and instead, start their own separate organizations, call themselves Catholic or the Catholic Church? The answer is No,

 

[Crusader13]

I think you’ve touched on a good point. When looking back at the earliest generations immediately after the reformation you find the Church actively trying to point out the errors of Protestantism because it was a matter of one’s salvation.

Today however, we find some within the Church telling people that even though these Protestant beliefs are still errors, they will no longer cost you your salvation. Why? Because they are no longer actively rejecting the Catholic Church but instead are following God with a sincere heart.

So the Catholic Church is still the One True Faith founded by Jesus, but it is no longer required that one subscribe to this belief. In fact, it’s almost better that they don’t because through their ignorance they will attain heaven simply because they are seeking God. It doesn’t matter if their beliefs contradict Catholic teaching, because they aren’t Catholic, but are still “catholic”.

 

[Crusader13]

This same misunderstanding is why we are talking about catholic vs Catholic. Everyone loves bringing up the “New Evangelization”, but we aren’t evangelizing anyone. We no longer need to, because there are privileged and non-privileged routes of salvation.

So in the center circle you have the Catholic Church, outside that circle we drew another circle which includes the catholic church, then there’s another circle which includes basically every body else.

And within all these circles there is salvation, because according to the fruits of Vatican II, everyone is saved through the center circle without even being in the center circle! Because it’s God working through their own circles which saves them, even if they don’t acknowledge it!

Crazy how that works!

 

[Crusader13]

I rarely hear this talk amongst my protestant friends. In fact most protestants are pretty black and white when it comes to salvation and the role of the Church. There is no ambiguity and talk about privileged and no-privileged routes to heaven.

When asked about the salvation of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists and everyone else who doesn’t believe in Jesus or scripture, there is a resounding “Yes, they need to convert.”

It’s only here in the Catholic Church that we seem more concerned about offending one’s beliefs then we are about their salvation. So in order to give the appearance that we are more tolerant and “woke” with regards to others beliefs, we move the goal posts back and widen the boundaries to allow more acceptance of other ways to heaven.

Then we just dress up it by saying “Well if a Buddhists goes to heaven, it’s not technically Buddha that saved him, but it was Jesus through the Catholic Church” because apparently God willed these other religions and wants all men to be saved, so He uses whatever faith has a belief in god.

This line of reasoning is why there is pagan worship going on at the Vatican right now. This whole concept of Catholic vs universal catholic is the fruit of bad theology and a misguided view to want to appear more ecumenical. When in reality all its done, is foster confusion, ambiguity and a desire to be more politically correct when talking about the salvation of others.

 

[fhansen]

What exactly is the difference?

Please try to explain with as many easy to understand words as possible without too many links. I just want to get an understanding of the differences without go out on line to read websites I wont understand.

There can only be one Church, established by Christ. And by definition that Church must be unified in beliefs. So ask yourself, where can you find that Church, just from a logical and historical perspective? And where can you find a line that divides that Church from the one Christ established?

 

[steve-b]

When looking back at the earliest generations immediately after the reformation you find the Church actively trying to point out the errors of Protestantism because it was a matter of one’s salvation.

Today however, we find some within the Church telling people that even though these Protestant beliefs are still errors, they will no longer cost you your salvation. Why? Because they are no longer actively rejecting the Catholic Church but instead are following God with a sincere heart.

So the Catholic Church is still the One True Faith founded by Jesus, but it is no longer required that one subscribe to this belief.

Crusader13:

This same misunderstanding is why we are talking about catholic vs Catholic. Everyone loves bringing up the “New Evangelization”, but we aren’t evangelizing anyone. We no longer need to, because there are privileged and non-privileged routes of salvation.

So in the center circle you have the Catholic Church, outside that circle we drew another circle which includes the catholic church, then there’s another circle which includes basically every body else.

Back when this prophetic listing of errors was printed

Following From Pius IX 1864, The Syllabus Of Errors - Papal Encyclicals

THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. – Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. – Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. – Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
4. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. –
   Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.

As in these “condemned errors” = heresy

So

in the case, according to Catholic teaching, one who is baptized and holds to those understandings, is in condemned error as in heresy.

Fast forward to 1965 and the last ecumenical council on record. Has anything changed theologically?

From Lumen Gentiun

From paragraph 14

"Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved".

Ergo by definition, nothing has changed theologically except in the minds of those in error.

 

[steve-b]

I rarely hear this talk amongst my protestant friends. In fact most protestants are pretty black and white when it comes to salvation and the role of the Church. There is no ambiguity and talk about privileged and no-privileged routes to heaven.

then, Ergo relativism and indifferentism

Crusader13:

When asked about the salvation of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists and everyone else who doesn’t believe in Jesus or scripture, there is a resounding “Yes, they need to convert.”

Wait a minute. You just said there is no privileged vs non privileged route to heaven.

Crusader13:

It’s only here in the Catholic Church that we seem more concerned about offending one’s beliefs then we are about their salvation.

Excuse me? Where do you get THAT?

Crusader13:

This whole concept of Catholic vs universal catholic is the fruit of bad theology and a misguided view to want to appear more ecumenical.

Now you are speaking in a way I agree, about “THOSE” in the Church who are galactically in error
If before you were speaking euphemistically, I wish you said it that way

Crusader13:

When in reality all its done, is foster confusion, ambiguity and a desire to be more politically correct when talking about the salvation of others.

Again I fully agree.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Why, if they believe the same, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour. In order to be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven you must be born again?

We act on our beliefs. I believe I will die if I jump off a 10 story building. As a result you will never see me walk off a 10 story building.

I believe Jesus is my God & my redeemer. So when He says to be obedient to His Church, I try to be obedient to His Church.

When He says, “do this in remembrance of me.” I try to “do this” as often as possible.

When He says you must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God… I try to honor my spiritual Father & Mother. He did not leave us orphans.

 

[annad347]

You responded to one post with links on this thread, but I don’t see where the links I gave were opened.

I did? You can see when someone clicks on your link? Cool how? Is it automatic when you make a link?
If I didnt click on a link could be for many reasons… I ran out of time, so I meant to go back but forgot, I didnt understamd your post, or I didnt agree with what you said… not sure, Im sorry, I didn’t mean no disrespect.

Btw, the Greek word for Division / dissension διχοστασίαι used in Rm 16:17-21 & Gal 5:19-21 is the same Greek word. Open the link for διχοστασίαι to see the definition

Those 2 passages can be describing any church including the Catholic church.

If Jesus is really Lord and Savior, then it goes without saying one needs to obey Him.

Totally agree. I’m trying… God knows I’m trying.

From what I’m understating when the church created by Peter was divided it was not perfect.

 

[annad347]

You don’t think they are doing those things in the universal version of the catholic church?

 

[steve-b]

You responded to one post with links on this thread, but I don’t see where the links I gave were opened.

I did? You can see when someone clicks on your link? Cool how? Is it automatic when you make a link?
If I didnt click on a link could be for many reasons… I ran out of time, so I meant to go back but forgot, I didnt understamd your post, or I didnt agree with what you said… not sure, Im sorry, I didn’t mean no disrespect.

I give links to show where the information comes from that I used to make a point. If you don’t open the links, that’s your choice, but if you then repeat your points again, we don’t get anywhere.

Btw, the Greek word for Division / dissension διχοστασίαι used in Rm 16:17-21 & Gal 5:19-21 is the same Greek word. Open the link for διχοστασίαι to see the definition

annad347:

Those 2 passages can be describing any church including the Catholic church.

No. That contradicts what is being written.

The writers of the NT are already in the One Church (the Catholic Church) they are writing to and for. There is only one Church Our Lord established, on Peter and those in perfect union with Peter.

If Jesus is really Lord and Savior, then it goes without saying one needs to obey Him.

annad347:

Totally agree. I’m trying… God knows I’m trying.

From what I’m understating when the church created by Peter was divided it was not perfect

If you would open links you would see the answer you gave misses the consequence Paul makes for those who divide. Perfectly one, as Jesus says , means there is no division allowed. Therefore, when Paul addresses division, those who do it and remain divided, won’t inherit heaven.

All described in the links I gave

 

[annad347]

I give links to show where the information comes from that I used to make a point. If you don’t open the links, that’s your choice, but if you then repeat your points again, we don’t get anywhere.

not really, because even after clicking on the links I still think its 2 different churches. the consequences being warned about can be about the Catholic church as well.

The writers of the NT are already in the One Church (the Catholic Church) they are writing to and for. There is only one Church Our Lord established, on Peter and those in perfect union with Peter.

when people seperated from the church it wasn’t the original catholic church they were seperating themsleves from but from the people who corrupted the church by misrepresenting themselves in the name of God.

I do agree that the links you posted are talking about the orginal universal catholic church created by Peter…seperating yourself from that church is basically turning your back on God and that’s not a good thing.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I give links to show where the information comes from that I used to make a point. If you don’t open the links, that’s your choice, but if you then repeat your points again, we don’t get anywhere.

not really, because even after clicking on the links I still think its 2 different churches. the consequences being warned about can be about the Catholic church as well.

When you identify yourself as

catholic/lutherin/non denominational

Which are you?

The writers of the NT are already in the One Church (the Catholic Church) they are writing to and for. There is only one Church Our Lord established, on Peter and those in perfect union with Peter.

annad347:

when people seperated from the church it wasn’t the original catholic church they were seperating themsleves from but from the people who corrupted the church by misrepresenting themselves in the name of God.

So, when Jesus made the promise to Peter, "not even the gates of Hell will prevail against my Church that I’m building on you and those perfectly one with you, … He failed His promise?

Because THAT’S what you are saying, Jesus failed
annad345:

I do agree that the links you posted are talking about the orginal universal catholic church created by Peter…seperating yourself from that church is basically turning your back on God and that’s not a good thing.

The same Church is here today with pope Francis 266th successor to Peter.

 

[annad347]

Which are you?

I’m a Christian, child of God. Who attends a Catholic, Lutherin and some times a non denominational church, but not the last one too often.

Sadly didn’t attend any church for many years though.

So, when Jesus made the promise to Peter, "not even the gates of Hell will prevail against my Church that I’m building on you and those perfectly one with you, … He failed His promise?

Because THAT’S what you are saying, Jesus failed

No, man failed, men in power. You can not deny those in power many years ago caused the separation in the church by misrepresenting themselves in God’s name. The Catholic church admitted they messed up many many many years ago. They fixed it… but it still happened.

The church Jesus promised Peter still exist. The church that teaches Jesus is the only way to salvation, the Father… The Holy Spirit will guide you… and when accept the truth you will follow and you will obey, making you a member the church Jesus promised Peter.

 

[Justin_Mary]

The church Jesus promised Peter still exist. The church that teaches Jesus is the only way to salvation, the Father… The Holy Spirit will guide you… and when accept the truth you will follow and you will obey , making you a member the church Jesus promised Peter.

Just curious. If there was only one reason preventing you from seeing the Catholic Church as that Church, what would it be.

I understand the reality is there are many reasons. But if there was only one, which would it be?

I very much understand where you’re coming from. You & I are adopted sons of God. Brothers. But we are not united the way Jesus wants us to be united just because we say we are. Even if we truly “believe” it, doesn’t make it so.

Our Father wants something better for us. Something real. Something that will last.

 

[Gorgias]

Why, if they believe the same, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour. In order to be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven you must be born again?

“Many will cry ‘Lord, Lord’”…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Which are you?

I’m a Christian, child of God. Who attends a Catholic, Lutherin and some times a non denominational church, but not the last one too often.

Sadly didn’t attend any church for many years though.

I only asked because your answers are very Protestant.

Just another question,

When you attend the Catholic Church, do you receive the Eucharist?

So, when Jesus made the promise to Peter, "not even the gates of Hell will prevail against my Church that I’m building on you and those perfectly one with you, … He failed His promise?

Because THAT’S what you are saying, Jesus failed

annad347:

No, man failed, men in power. You can not deny those in power many years ago caused the separation in the church by misrepresenting themselves in God’s name. The Catholic church admitted they messed up many many many years ago. They fixed it… but it still happened.

So

When, Judas messed up , did that give anyone the right to leave the Church THEN?
How about all the heretics that followed in history, for the last 2000 yrs?

Jesus never promised His Church would have no sinners.

All His promises are given to His Church, ergo those promises go to those in His Church and remain in His Church.

annad347:

The church Jesus promised Peter still exist. The church that teaches Jesus is the only way to salvation, the Father… The Holy Spirit will guide you… and when accept the truth you will follow and you will obey, making you a member the church Jesus promised Peter.

anna,

Neither Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, is influencing nor behind all the denominational divisions in Christianity that are out there today. As Jesus said, we are to be “Perfectly One” There is no room for a squishy understanding of perfectly one. Scripture condemns such division and those who do it

As an observation,

People “claiming” that JESUS is Lord, and they follow JESUS, and they accept JESUS, etc etc etc, and are NOT in His Church nor receiving His sacraments is a contradiction in terms, AND a contradiction of scripture that those same folks “say”, is their sole source of truth. They invent their own reality.