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Wannano
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Gorgias
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Very true. If the leadership of the Catholic Church hadn’t been doing some of the things that they were doing, it wouldn’t have fomented the kind of dissatisfaction among the faithful.
(However, there’s a world of difference between “ya’ll need to stop doing these sinful things, ok?” and “ya’ll need to stop teaching these doctrines, ok?”, don’t you think…?
How the latter arises and gets conflated with the former is an interesting discussion that I think doesn’t happen often enough…)
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Vico
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I fixed it, that part was from … Gorgias.
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Gorgias
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Right. And I know the answer, from a Catholic perspective. I was asking how a non-Catholic Christian would answer the question “if you’re a member of the universal catholic church and you leave it, are you still a member of the church you’ve left?”
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Wannano
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I think that is very true. We all tend to judge the churches, Catholic or non-Catholic by the actions of the followers and leaders. It is natural to assume that if the church does not discipline the unfaithful and remove them, that the church itself must condone the activity.Wannano:
Very true. If the leadership of the Catholic Church hadn’t been doing some of the things that they were doing, it wouldn’t have fomented the kind of dissatisfaction among the faithful.
(However, there’s a world of difference between “ya’ll need to stop doing these sinful things, ok?” and “ya’ll need to stop teaching these doctrines, ok?”, don’t you think…?
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Wannano
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Interesting question but your question needs clarifying. When you ask if your still a member of the church you’ve left, do you mean the universal catholic church or your particular denomination?Vico:
Right. And I know the answer, from a Catholic perspective. I was asking how a non-Catholic Christian would answer the question “if you’re a member of the universal catholic church and you leave it, are you still a member of the church you’ve left?”
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Vico
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How does one leave? The Catholic Church in their statement on formal defection (actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica) states that it is a specific act of schism, heresy, or apostacy. It must be freely manifested personally in writing to the competent Church authority who is to judge if it is “true separation from the constitutive elements of the life of the Church … an act of apostasy, heresy or schism.” Nevertheless the person is still obliged as before.Vico:
Right. And I know the answer, from a Catholic perspective. I was asking how a non-Catholic Christian would answer the question “if you’re a member of the universal catholic church and you leave it, are you still a member of the church you’ve left?”
Do non Catholic churches or communities have such process to validate apostasy, heresy or schism?
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Wannano
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I would say you become a member of the universal, catholic church when you become a Christian. If you leave the universal church it is because you have chosen to reject God and no longer believe in His plan of Salvation. Thus I guess, become an atheist, agnostic or non-Christian.
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Vico
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Becoming an atheist, agnostic or non-Christian is called apostacy. Could not schism and heresy be a rejection of His plan of Salvation?
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Wannano
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I have not thought this through and I must go for today but I am not sure that schism and heresy produce a rejection of God’s plan of Salvation, but a rejection of God’s plan of Salvation brings schism and heresy. Was just a quick thought.
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Vico
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OK. I would add that the plan is that:
- We are inheritors of original sin and all its consequences,
- We are all sinners in need of a savior,
- Salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone,
- By actual sin we distance ourselves from God,
- We can’t save ourselves
- Saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us,
- That grace is accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism,
- Those remaining in that grace at death have salvation.
- The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation,
- The Holy Spirit bestows upon the Church varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic,
- The saving work is revealed and active in the Church’s seven sacraments.
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Gorgias
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If the church you left is the “universal catholic church”, then when you create a new denomination, how do you make a claim on still being in the “universal catholic church”?
Let’s go back to the Reformation, though. When the Reformers left the universal catholic church and started their own organizations, were those organizations the “universal catholic church”? And, if so, how do we make the claim "I left X, and now my Y that I created is also X "…?
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De_Maria
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Do Baptists include Presbyterians, Lutherans and other Protestant denominations under the umbrella of universal catholic church?Episcopalian:
Christ would be head of the universal catholic church (Baptist tradition)
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Dlee
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My answer would have to be that anyone “who is saved” would be considered part of the umbrella of the universal catholic church. But then the doctrine becomes fuzzy on how you define salvation. My particular Baptist Church would say Catholics are not saved or part of the universal catholic church! I don’t know about Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. We grew up believing that Baptists were correct, other denoms were not.
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De_Maria
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Not very universal then, since there are 40 million Baptists in the world. But there are
8 billion people. That’s 8000 million. So, .005 of the population. So, still got a lot of work to do.
There are 1.2 billion Catholics. So, more than 10 % of the world population. That’s closer to universal. Still, not quite there, but working on it.
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Dlee
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Agreed! I think we were our own little universe.
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adf417
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I dont think the shear numbers are a very good argument for universality. If it were then the church would have a problem being universal at its infancy or - at what point did the church become universal sense it started so small in numbers.
Peace!!!
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Justin_Mary
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To look at it a different way, by actual sin we prevent the light of Christ to shine through us. Even if I feed the hungry, clothe the poor, liberate the oppressed it is not Christ. It may be my pride, my guilt, my or my fear that moves me to do such things. & God may very well use those acts to bless those people. That is His discretion to do so.
I can’t by my own will allow Christ to live in me, through me. That also is His discretion. I can avoid obstacles that block the light of His life within me.
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Vico
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A person does have the free will to cooperate with the grace and thus be the partial cause of their eternal salvation.Vico:
To look at it a different way, by actual sin we prevent the light of Christ to shine through us. Even if I feed the hungry, clothe the poor, liberate the oppressed it is not Christ. It may be my pride, my guilt, my or my fear that moves me to do such things. & God may very well use those acts to bless those people. That is His discretion to do so.
I can’t by my own will allow Christ to live in me, through me. That also is His discretion. I can avoid obstacles that block the light of His life within me.
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De_Maria
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Since it was called the Catholic Church early on, it’s growth must have been explosive.De_Maria:
I dont think the shear numbers are a very good argument for universality. If it were then the church would have a problem being universal at its infancy or - at what point did the church become universal sense it started so small in numbers.
Peace!!!
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