Universal health insurance

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, do you have all the answers?

You are **offended **that I have found help for people with problems? It’s wrong for me to take a specific problem and work it out?

Will you acknowledge that perhaps there are problems with the USA style of health care…or are you such a patriotic American that you cannot even imagine that there may in fact be a problem…

If you’ve been reading this thread, you can see that I have posted concrete proposals to improve the American system – but you have ignored them.

To me, it sounds like no matter what problem someone presents, you fail to listen to reason and insist that there isn’t a problem.

That is what I’m reading.

You are reading what you want to read. You have ignored my analysis of how we can fix the American system – from MSAs to opening up the health insurance industry to more competition through shopping across state lines and allowing non-affilaited business to band together to bargain for health insurance.

And when I find that a person in this debate who needs an expensive drug can get a generic for a very low cost – you make that sound like an offense!!

Failure orientation??? Did you make that up?

No. I have two graduate degrees and many years in the commercial training business. It’s a well-understood term in the field.

I have followed this board closely, you seem to be the only one with his head in the sand.

I will forebare to speculate where you have your head – but you must admit, you have contributed nothing to the debate, while I have not only offered concrete solutions to our problems, but actually found low-cost medication for someone in need.

So be it. If I had to guess, I would bet that you are an American with medical insurance.

Well, duh!!

I pay my own way. What’s wrong with that?

I still cannot believe that you are suggesting that an uninsured American can have a funny looking mole ( one that falls outside of what is statistically considered problematic) have it referred to a dermatologist, biopsied, found to be cancerous melanoma, removed and receive yearly follow ups with a dermatologist for the rest of their lives.

What you cannot believe and reality are two different things.

You actually believe that??? Everyone around here is telling you that you are wrong, that that level of care in the USA for an uninsured American DOES NOT EXIST.

No – only people who don’t bother to research what assistance is avaliable are telling me that.

 

[pathia]

I gave you two websites where you can search to find if any drug has a generic, and then determine if Wal-Mart carries it and sells it at low cost. It took me about a minute to find each of those websites and get the information – I could have done it faster, but I have dial-up.

Then work to make it your home. Start with the pastor, and have him carry the ball for you.

If you were in my parish, we’d long ago have found the cheap drugs and located ways to help pay your medical expenses.

One of the first things I am always told is that I should leave my partner. I have no interest in that advice, or help from people that would tell me to do such a thing. Sorry. Consider me part of the loyal opposition now, the Church has left me, and I it. My presence here will start to dwindle.

I have other friends and companions and groups that will help me without being insulting, offensive and damaging to my sanity as the catholic church has been. The only reason I am still here is because everyone here seems to be much more understanding and caring than anyone I’ve met at the actual parishes.

There is no such thing as a ‘generic’ kidney stone treatment, or a ‘generic’ gallstone treatment, or a ‘generic’ way to stop seizures, or a ‘generic’ way to fix any number of my problems. Prescriptions are a very small part of my debt, most of it is hospital debt. They forgive it slowly over time, because they realize how poor I am, but that doesn’t stop the bill collectors from making me go even more crazy with their daily phone calls.

I don’t qualify for medicare or medicaid. Charity is all that I qualify for, and there are much more deserving people than I for it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

One of the first things I am always told is that I should leave my partner. I have no interest in that advice, or help from people that would tell me to do such a thing. Sorry. Consider me part of the loyal opposition now, the Church has left me, and I it. My presence here will start to dwindle.

I’m sorry for you and will pray for you – but you realize that if you choose to reject the Church, you cannot justly blame the Church for your problems.

I have other friends and companions and groups that will help me without being insulting, offensive and damaging to my sanity as the catholic church has been. The only reason I am still here is because everyone here seems to be much more understanding and caring than anyone I’ve met at the actual parishes.

If you were here in our parish, we would help you.

There is no such thing as a ‘generic’ kidney stone treatment, or a ‘generic’ gallstone treatment, or a ‘generic’ way to stop seizures, or a ‘generic’ way to fix any number of my problems. Prescriptions are a very small part of my debt, most of it is hospital debt. They forgive it slowly over time, because they realize how poor I am, but that doesn’t stop the bill collectors from making me go even more crazy with their daily phone calls.

No one said there was a “generic” kidney stone treatment. The issue was generic drugs. With a little searching, I am sure you can find ways to cut your drug costs dramatically – the Fossamax case is an example.

As for hospital treatment, I think you can find help there, too. After all, there are many Catholic hospitals, and you can work with them to get treatment at a reasonable cost.

But again, if you reject the Church, you can’t blame the Church.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

How do we consider ourselves “best” in healthcare?
Infant mortality rates?
Life expectancies?
Doesn’t look like we stack up so well…
infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html
Looks like to me Canada, Great Britain, France, Sweden, Denmark (who have Universal HealthCARE) all do better.

How about state of the world’s mothers? I don’t see the USA on the top 10

infoplease.com/world/statistics/state-world-mothers-2008.html

How about as a % of GDP? Looks like undeveloped countries beat us, but it also looks like as a comparison, it looks like there are countries with universal healthCARE that pay about the same, plus or minus as the USA. So if we can pay the same and don’t have to worry about going bust, isn’t that a good thing?

infoplease.com/ipa/A0934554.html

If we have the best healthcare, why are we one of the fattest? Isn’t obesity a disease?

infoplease.com/world/statistics/obesity.html

How about abortions? Seems like to me that the leading healthcare countries would have less abortions, looks like we can’t use that either…

infoplease.com/ipa/A0004397.html

Ok I found it!. We spend the most per capita, that’s how we are best.

infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html


So, why are we even discussing this? Can’t we be honest and tell the American public that the lawyers, insurance companies, collection agencies, doctors and hospitals are all taking advantage of the American heathcare patient? Isn’t it time to actually DO something and do what every other industrial country in the world does?

 

[pathia]

I’m sorry for you and will pray for you – but you realize that if you choose to reject the Church, you cannot justly blame the Church for your problems.

If you were here in our parish, we would help you.

No one said there was a “generic” kidney stone treatment. The issue was generic drugs. With a little searching, I am sure you can find ways to cut your drug costs dramatically – the Fossamax case is an example.

As for hospital treatment, I think you can find help there, too. After all, there are many Catholic hospitals, and you can work with them to get treatment at a reasonable cost.

But again, if you reject the Church, you can’t blame the Church.

I blame the church’s MEMBERS for doing what it has done to me. I don’t blame the Church for my problems, or even the members. I just blame them for being really rude, nasty and unwelcoming to me. That isn’t ‘my problems’. My problems are drugs, treatment, hospital visits and the rest are too expensive.

That has nothing to do with the church. The church doesn’t dictate drug prices last time I checked!

When did I ever blame the church for my problems? It’s not like they made me born this way, oh…wait…well, some Priests DID coax my parents to do the surgery in my infancy that mangled my body, sterilized me and made me completely incapable of ever experiencing pleasure of either gender, of any sort.

The only blessing in it is that it makes it rather easy to be celibate, but the church’s followers itself did that to me, without their ‘advise’ my parents wouldn’t have gone through with it. However I face constant medical problems with it because the entirely optional church-suggested surgery, of course went awry and I fight problems with it constantly. Since it’s a very specialized, odd surgery, it’s incredibly expensive to get treated. I have to normally fly cross country to have work done on it, which isn’t usually an option.

I’m intentionally very vague about this surgery, because what was done, where, what and how is very…gross, to say the least to many I think.

So am I bitter and angry at the church? VERY. But not about prescription drug prices

 

[vern_humphrey]

So, why are we even discussing this? Can’t we be honest and tell the American public that the lawyers, insurance companies, collection agencies, doctors and hospitals are all taking advantage of the American heathcare patient? Isn’t it time to actually DO something and do what every other industrial country in the world does?

So we say, “Hey, American people! Lawyers, insurance companies, collection agencies, doctors and hospitals are all taking advantage of you. So we’ll fix it so that lawyers, insurance companies, collection agencies, doctors, hospitals and bureaucrats can take advantage of you!!”

If you look back through this thread, you can find concrete proposals for making our system better that involve reducing the number of scoundrels that take advantage of people, not increasing the maze of parasites.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I blame the church’s MEMBERS for doing what it has done to me. I don’t blame the Church for my problems, or even the members. I just blame them for being really rude, nasty and unwelcoming to me. That isn’t ‘my problems’. My problems are drugs, treatment, hospital visits and the rest are too expensive.

That has nothing to do with the church. The church doesn’t dictate drug prices last time I checked!

When did I ever blame the church for my problems? It’s not like they made me born this way, oh…wait…well, some Priests DID coax my parents to do the surgery in my infancy that mangled my body, sterilized me and made me completely incapable of every experiencing pleasure of either gender, of any sort. The only blessing in it is that it makes it rather easy to be celibate, but the church’s followers itself did that to me, without their ‘advise’ my parents wouldn’t have gone through with it.

So am I bitter and angry at the church? VERY. But not about prescription drug prices

The two bolded sections seem to contradict each other.

If you have not abandoned the Church, the Church will not abandon you. Talk frankly the Pastor and let him carry the ball with the parishoners. The Church will help.

 

[onetimeposter]

So we say, “Hey, American people! Lawyers, insurance companies, collection agencies, doctors and hospitals are all taking advantage of you. So we’ll fix it so that lawyers, insurance companies, collection agencies, doctors, hospitals and bureaucrats can take advantage of you!!”

If you look back through this thread, you can find concrete proposals for making our system better that involve reducing the number of scoundrels that take advantage of people, not increasing the maze of parasites.

Excellent post Ted in Charlott.

Vern, you realize that you have chosen to ignore all the facts that Ted presented and instead focus on one paragraph where he gives his own opinion.

Vern, your not fooling anyone.

You are quite transparent in how you respond to overwhelming evidence that your arguments are seriously flawed.

You ignore the facts…I suppose it’s easier to continue carrying your points forward, so long as you pretty much ignore everything everyone is telling you…and that is that the USA system does not work for the uninsured.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Excellent post Ted in Charlott.

Vern, you realize that you have chosen to ignore all the facts that Ted presented and instead focus on one paragraph where he gives his own opinion.

Vern, your not fooling anyone.

You are quite transparent in how you respond to overwhelming evidence that your arguments are seriously flawed.

You ignore the facts…I suppose it’s easier to continue carrying your points forward, so long as you pretty much ignore everything everyone is telling you…and that is that the USA system does not work for the uninsured.

Ah, the old personal attack ploy.

Tell me – I have presented concrete suggestions for improving the system. What have you presented?

I have researched and found low cost alternatives to expensive drugs. What have you researched and presented?

What** is** your role in this debate?

 

[onetimeposter]

Ah, the old personal attack ploy.

Tell me – I have presented concrete suggestions for improving the system. What have you presented?

I have researched and found low cost alternatives to expensive drugs. What have you researched and presented?

What** is** your role in this debate?

What have I offered? My point is proven, you really don’t pay any attention at all to what people write…this is the third time I have made this real life point:

I have highlighted that in Canada a person can have a funny looking mole referred to a dermatologist, have it biopsied ( just in case) and found to be a stage 1 cancerous tumor. If need be, the person can referred to a plastic surgeon for removal. Once the tumor is removed, the person will receive yearly follow ups with a dermatologist for the rest of their lives. No money out of pocket.

The uninsured in the USA do not receive this type of consistent preventative care. From what I know as fact, and from what numerous people have posted, the uninsured would only receive health care in the USA once the mole became a problem…a later stage tumor that has gone into the dermis, thus placing their life at risk…it is at that point they would receive health care.

I shudder to think what kind of care an uninsured person would receive…and the massive medical bills that they would incur.

The uninsured cannot consistently be referred to a dermatologist every time they have a mole change color slightly.

You are fooling no one by suggesting that uninsured Americans can receive quality preventative health care, efficiently, consistently and with no out of pocket expenses.

I will say it again…you are fooling no one and are only showing that you are one stubborn man.

Your like a politician, no matter the question, you get your message out, even if your message doesn’t answer the question, is off topic and doesn’t add anything to what was being asked of you.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have highlighted that in Canada a person can a funny looking mole referred to a dermatologist, have it biopsied ( just in case) and found to be a stage 1 cancerous tumor. If need be, the person can referred to a plastic surgeon for removal. Once the tumor is removed, the person will receive yearly follow ups with a dermatologist for the rest of their lives. No money out of pocket.

The uninsured in the USA do not receive this type of consistent preventative care. From what I know as fact, and from what numerous people have posted, the uninsured would only receive health care in the USA once the mole became a problem…a later stage tumor that has gone into the dermis, thus placing their life at risk…it is at that point they would receive health care.

And you haven’t helped solve a single problem – not one.

Let me offer a suggestion – you can work to get your government to pay fair prices for drugs developed in the US. Pay your share of R&D and lift some of the burden off the US consumer.

And in the process, you might even jump-start your own moribund R&D process, and help develop badly needed drugs.

The uninsured cannot consistently be referred to a dermatologist every time they have a mole change color slightly.

So you say.

You are fooling no one by suggesting that uninsured Americans can receive quality preventative health care, efficiently, consistently and with no out of pocket expenses.

And you are fooling no one with your spite-filled posts.

I will say it again…you are fooling no one and are only showing that you are one stubborn man.

And I will say it again, you contribute nothing to the discussion. You haven’t helped anyone, you haven’t offered any concrete suggestions for improvement.

 

[onetimeposter]

Your right Vern and everybody else is wrong!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Your right Vern and everybody else is wrong!

No, not everyone else. Just those who whine and spew bile, and contribute nothing to the discussion.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

So, why are we even discussing this? Can’t we be honest and tell the American public that the lawyers, insurance companies, collection agencies, doctors and hospitals are all taking advantage of the American heathcare patient? Isn’t it time to actually DO something and do what every other industrial country in the world does?

we do have the best health care in that it’s the best that money can buy.

the problem with the political right is that they effectively don’t believe in original sin, unlimited wealth accumilation is always good as long as you don’t break any laws. i’ve heard them call this ‘generating wealth’ as if it didn’t come from somewhere.

the catholic teaching on this issue is each according to his own need. basically, we are our brothers keeper and there is an obligation to protect the dignity of the family. this would include providing the means for families to afford health care.

because of original sin, we can be dominated by greed. this is exactly why a just distribution of wealth must be the goal. the middle class should be protected and local governments have the obligation to do so.

the only difference between marxism and capitalism on an economic level is that in marxism, the government own everything. in capitalism, the rich own everything. both are inherently materialistic.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

Excellent, Fosamax was only a tiny fraction of my medical costs, but every bit DOES help. There is also the fact the closest walmart is 75miles away though, but hopefully they can ship it to me.

Leuprolide, that’s my biggest current expense, outside of constantly reoccurring kidney and gall stones, seizures and migraines, I’d be healthy!

I don’t intend to be snarky, but the fact of the matter is, fosamax simply isn’t even a drop in the bucket.

Part of the problem is I simply feel uncomfortable in a Catholic church, it causes anxiety attacks to the point that I faint in the pew. That’s more something for a pentecostal church, right? No amount of explaining by the pastor is going to make it feel like home anymore. I simply don’t belong there anymore, but it’s all I have left. Something of a catch 22 unfortunately.

You didn’t say which form of Leuprolide you are taking. In any case TAP’s assistance program offers free Luprin Depot up to 300% of the federal poverty level. tap.com/abt_tpap.asp

Sanofi-Aventis Eligard is available at up to 150% see espanol.pparx.org/resources/2008-05-19.SanofiAventis.ELIGARD_Reimbursement_Hotline_and_Patient_Assistance_Program.670.pdf the phone number to call is 1-877-354-4273

The Partnership for Prescription Assistance is basically a clearinghouse for those drugs available free or at a greatly reduced price. pparx.org/Intro.php

Fosamax also participates. Depending on your income you may be able to get most of your meds free, though many of them are indeed a hassle.

JJ

 

[Jolly_Joe]

One of the first things I am always told is that I should leave my partner. I have no interest in that advice, or help from people that would tell me to do such a thing. Sorry. Consider me part of the loyal opposition now, the Church has left me, and I it. My presence here will start to dwindle.

I have other friends and companions and groups that will help me without being insulting, offensive and damaging to my sanity as the catholic church has been. The only reason I am still here is because everyone here seems to be much more understanding and caring than anyone I’ve met at the actual parishes.

There is no such thing as a ‘generic’ kidney stone treatment, or a ‘generic’ gallstone treatment, or a ‘generic’ way to stop seizures, or a ‘generic’ way to fix any number of my problems. Prescriptions are a very small part of my debt, most of it is hospital debt. They forgive it slowly over time, because they realize how poor I am, but that doesn’t stop the bill collectors from making me go even more crazy with their daily phone calls.

I don’t qualify for medicare or medicaid. Charity is all that I qualify for, and there are much more deserving people than I for it.

Stopping the bill collectors from calling is relatively easy under the Federal Fair Debt Collections Act that assumes it is a debt collector and not the original debt holder. Get the address of the bill collector, which they want to give you so you can send a payment to, but send a certified letter return receipt, and in it you tell them to quite calling you. Keep a copy of the letter.

If they continue you can file a complain with the state attorney general’s office or the Federal Trade Commission.

It might sound too easy to be true, but it does work. A debt collection agency that keeps calling after the letter will be out of business pretty quick.

Some states have similar laws that apply even to the original letters, check with your state attorney general’s office. Note that it doesn’t stop them from say sueing you or whatever, but before they will spend that money they will check and if you don’t have the resources they aren’t going to bother. But calling and making life miserable for you is cheap so they do it, even if you repeatedly tell them you have nothing.

But get their address, tell them to quite calling and then send the certified letter return receipt saying you told them to stop calling the day previously and just want to confirm that they are no longer to call you. Give you number and whether it is home or work or give both if you have both and that should be the end of the calls.

JJ

 

[Oscarthecat]

the catholic teaching on this issue is each according to his own need. basically, we are our brothers keeper and there is an obligation to protect the dignity of the family. this would include providing the means for families to afford health care.

The Catholic Teaching on every social issue emphasizes the balance between individual rights and responsibilities. I think that it is very important, as Catholics, to remember our individual responsibility to the poor- but also our right to be free from a government that infringes on our right to act freely. Christ told us, individually, as Christians, to care for the poor. He didn’t tell us to force everyone in society to do so. As much as I may believe that people have the right to recieve health care proportionate to their need, I don’t have the right to force my neighbor through the force of government to provide it. Instead, I have a responsibility to be charitable to the degree my conscience calls me.

because of original sin, we can be dominated by greed. this is exactly why a just distribution of wealth must be the goal. the middle class should be protected and local governments have the obligation to do so.

The answer to greed is not to forcibly take from those we feel are greedy- Jesus Christ was not Robin Hood. If you want to evoke meaningful change, then call others to charity from the goodness of their own hearts-don’t force them to contribute to a government system they disagree with, and which will only ultimately make them more callous toward the poor.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I think that one of the big problems with Universal Health Care is that it is being presented as the only solution to the problem of rising health care costs-

It’s almost as if people in support of UHC are saying

“Health Care is bad, so something must be done…UHC is “something”…therefore, UHC must be done…”

Why trade one broken system for another???
Many in favor of UHC have admitted that it is not a perfect system. One of the primary support anecdotes mentioned early regarding a malignant mole admitted that it took 5 MONTHS to see a dermatologist!!! That’s hardly perfect- I’ve seen specialists 5 hours after calling for an appointment for something serious- many things can happen in 5 months.

While our system is imperfect, I think there are better solutions out there than UHC.

• For example, as someone mentioned earlier-why not reduce and remove free trade restrictions on medical care and insurance that necessarily drive up costs?
• Why not offer medical care providers greater direct tax incentives for providing probono care? I know many doctors who provide free appointments for patients who ask.
• Why haven’t individuals set up “insurance charities” the same way that we set up food pantries??? Probably because they’re waiting for the government to bail us out instead of stepping up and doing something that doesn’t involve government force.
• Why aren’t I seeing any paid infomercials on late-night tv asking people to “donate the cost of a cup of coffee per day to provide health care insurance for needy families”??? I would gladly donate to provide health insurance to others if there was a mechanism to do so.

There are other solutions that don’t have to increase the already invasive reach of the government into our lives. I don’t want the government to tell me when and if I can get medical treatment. I don’t want my insurance carrier, either, but at least I have the choice to refuse to be their customer, or tell my company that I want them to offer another choice (it works, my company changed PHCP’s just two months ago for this very reason).

At least private insurers have to compete with other companies for their business. The government run UHC wouldn’t have to compete with anyone- I would have nowhere to turn if I didn’t think my healthcare was being managed correctly.

Last but not least…speaking of the hidden costs of health care-what about the hidden costs of government??? If government toilet seats cost $700, how much will a government MRI machine cost??? We’ll never know, we’ll just know that our taxes keep going up and up.

 

[Holly3278]

So if you do not have money to buy insurance, will you have access to bevacizumab?

Guess not. I think we need national health insurance that covers even the most expensive medications out there. Why? Because sometimes the most expensive medications are necessary for a person to be in good health.

 

[pathia]

You didn’t say which form of Leuprolide you are taking. In any case TAP’s assistance program offers free Luprin Depot up to 300% of the federal poverty level. tap.com/abt_tpap.asp

Sanofi-Aventis Eligard is available at up to 150% see espanol.pparx.org/resources/2008-05-19.SanofiAventis.ELIGARD_Reimbursement_Hotline_and_Patient_Assistance_Program.670.pdf the phone number to call is 1-877-354-4273

The Partnership for Prescription Assistance is basically a clearinghouse for those drugs available free or at a greatly reduced price. pparx.org/Intro.php

Fosamax also participates. Depending on your income you may be able to get most of your meds free, though many of them are indeed a hassle.

JJ

I am 305% of the poverty level. I am SOL with that.