Universal health insurance

[whatevergirl]

Clearly many of you have been brainwashed by the republican talking points. How many more lawsuits will it take to convince you? All because of the profit motive and everybody has to get a cut. Liability, overhead, bad debts, insurance, legal, accounting all gone. That is the true MIRE.

Forget the MIRE and let’s start to ADMIRE our healthCARE system.

and the government isn’t drowning in debt? Ted…I think your stance is right on, that reform is needed. I don’t agree that the govenment is going to eliminate all of the problems of healthcare…they can help manage the system better, and hopefully, there will be programs that will be able to help everyone…no one should be drowning in medical bills in this country. It’s disgusting, I agree. But, our government doesn’t have a magic wand to make sure everyone will get proper healthcare. Doctors will still want to be paid at each visit, for each surgery, on site…and insurance companies will be shouldering a lot of the claims. In Florida, there is a private carrier who is intertwined with the government, in Tampa, shouldering the claims if a hurricane hits. There isn’t enough money in the cauffers to pay out if a devestating hurricane hit, because the city government doesn’t have that kind of money.

If the avarian flu hit america, same thing would apply if the government was handling healthcare without insurance carriers. People would be dying, because there wouldn’t be enough money to go around. Granted, this is an extreme case…but insurers think of extreme cases, and are ready. Will the government be ready?

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

This is a little dated but it is interesting reading:
gallup.com/poll/8056/Healthcare-System-Ratings-US-Great-Britain-Canada.aspx

More political fodder on healthcare:
209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:aqwIixWsqfIJ:www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/files/Topline__Best_HC_Havard_Harris.doc+GREAT+BRITAIN+HEALTHCARE+SYSTEM&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

More evidence that Americans just want it quick and don’t care about costs (I believe they probably have insurance)
eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/hsop-mrt031808.php

The view that the U.S. health care system lags other countries seems largely driven by the view that the U.S. is behind in controlling health care costs and providing affordable access to everyone. In comparing how the U.S. stacks up against other countries in specific areas, a slim majority of Americans believe that the U.S. health care system is better in terms of the quality of care patients receive (55% believe the U.S. is better than other countries) and shorter waiting times to see specialists or be admitted to the hospital (53% believe the U.S. is better than other countries). However, very few believe that the U.S. has the edge when it comes to providing affordable access to everyone (26% believe the U.S. is better than other countries) and controlling health care costs (21% believe the U.S. is better than other countries).

Once again, there are contrasts in how Republicans view the United States’ standing on these elements and how Democrats and Independents rate the U.S. As an example, four-in-ten (40%) Republicans believe the U.S health care system is better than other countries when it comes to making sure everyone can get affordable health care, compared to just one-in-five Democrats (19%) and Independents (22%) who share that belief. On each of the four elements tested, Independents are within a few percentage points of agreement with Democrats, and both are significantly separated from Republicans.

“The health care debate in this election involves starkly different views of the U.S. health care system,” says Robert J. Blendon, Professor of Health Policy and Political Analysis at the Harvard School of Public Health. “One party sees it as lagging other countries across a broad range of problem areas while the other party sees the system as the best in the world with a more limited range of problems.”

So, as long as you want to believe the lies your party tells you then you will continue to be deceived. I do want to point out that even the republicans surveyed, only 40% believe we have the best.

Give it up. It just doesn’t make any more sense to give all the money to the lawyers and insurance companies. Who are you protecting? This system all it does is steal from the poor and give to the rich.

 

[whatevergirl]

Is it fair that I can’t afford food, clothing or housing because of my medical bills that insurance won’t cover? Is it fair that I have lived out of my car, and in homeless shelters because I couldn’t afford rent for my medical bills?

All I have is my health, and it is exceedingly poor. Health comes first for me, even before shelter and food, because if I’m not healthy, I can’t live, I can’t keep anything down, or even eat.

How is it right that an insurance company denies me surgery to fix an infected part of my body? The only way they would cover it is if I let it deteriorate to the point I got sepsis or gangrene from it, how insane is that?

This isn’t about little things that are ‘optional’. These are conditions that can and will eventually KILL me, and they deny them, consistently. I shouldn’t have to rely on charity to just be ALIVE. That’s insane.

Why is an insurance company denying you a benefit for a life threatening illness? I don’t understand that. I can honestly say that even though I work in the business, I have had my fair share of arguments with payments, claims, after having things denied…and then, they are paid…but usually, they weren’t being paid, because it fell through the cracks. Is there any way you can escalate your situation up the ladder within that insurance company? I’d tell you to get another carrier, but the problem I foresee you having is that a new carrier will assess your preexisting condition, and deny you coverage.

It is not solely the insurance company’s fault…it’s amazing that doctors, pharmaceutical companies, lawyers, and hospitals can charge inordinant amounts of money for procedures, services, etc…and then, when that gets dumped into the insurers lap, we think they should charge a reduced fee but still cover everyone else’s expenses. (I say this as a blanket statement, of the way insurers are viewed)

The truth is…your situation is horrible, but I don’t believe that it’s not fixable. Have you looked into any government programs currently, for your situation?

 

[pathia]

Why is an insurance company denying you a benefit for a life threatening illness? I don’t understand that. I can honestly say that even though I work in the business, I have had my fair share of arguments with payments, claims, after having things denied…and then, they are paid…but usually, they weren’t being paid, because it fell through the cracks. Is there any way you can escalate your situation up the ladder within that insurance company? I’d tell you to get another carrier, but the problem I foresee you having is that a new carrier will assess your preexisting condition, and deny you coverage.

The truth is…your situation is horrible, but I don’t believe that it’s not fixable. Have you looked into any government programs currently, for your situation?

1.) I make too much money to qualify for government aid
2.) The plan I am on is the only one in the state that will carry me. everyone else outright denies even starting coverage.
3.) All my problems will be gone as soon as I can move into MA, WA or CA.

The problem is Virginia is full of bigots, when I leave this area, I’ll be fine. However I have too much family business to take care of to leave just yet.

 

[whatevergirl]

This is a little dated but it is interesting reading:
gallup.com/poll/8056/Healthcare-System-Ratings-US-Great-Britain-Canada.aspx

More political fodder on healthcare:
209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:aqwIixWsqfIJ:www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/files/Topline__Best_HC_Havard_Harris.doc+GREAT+BRITAIN+HEALTHCARE+SYSTEM&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

More evidence that Americans just want it quick and don’t care about costs (I believe they probably have insurance)
eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/hsop-mrt031808.php

The view that the U.S. health care system lags other countries seems largely driven by the view that the U.S. is behind in controlling health care costs and providing affordable access to everyone. In comparing how the U.S. stacks up against other countries in specific areas, a slim majority of Americans believe that the U.S. health care system is better in terms of the quality of care patients receive (55% believe the U.S. is better than other countries) and shorter waiting times to see specialists or be admitted to the hospital (53% believe the U.S. is better than other countries). However, very few believe that the U.S. has the edge when it comes to providing affordable access to everyone (26% believe the U.S. is better than other countries) and controlling health care costs (21% believe the U.S. is better than other countries).

Once again, there are contrasts in how Republicans view the United States’ standing on these elements and how Democrats and Independents rate the U.S. As an example, four-in-ten (40%) Republicans believe the U.S health care system is better than other countries when it comes to making sure everyone can get affordable health care, compared to just one-in-five Democrats (19%) and Independents (22%) who share that belief. On each of the four elements tested, Independents are within a few percentage points of agreement with Democrats, and both are significantly separated from Republicans.

“The health care debate in this election involves starkly different views of the U.S. health care system,” says Robert J. Blendon, Professor of Health Policy and Political Analysis at the Harvard School of Public Health. “One party sees it as lagging other countries across a broad range of problem areas while the other party sees the system as the best in the world with a more limited range of problems.”

So, as long as you want to believe the lies your party tells you then you will continue to be deceived. I do want to point out that even the republicans surveyed, only 40% believe we have the best.

Give it up. It just doesn’t make any more sense to give all the money to the lawyers and insurance companies. Who are you protecting? This system all it does is steal from the poor and give to the rich.

Our healthcare system is designed to keep people sick in this country. Reactive care, as opposed to proactive. Yes, people are cured, people have heart transplants, etc…but, still reactionary procedures done when a person is quite ill. Until we start looking at how to be proactive in our healthcare system, doesn’t matter if the man on the moon is running the system, it will always be designed to react to sick people, instead of create health and well being. Even our nighttime commercials show a wide range of pills available for the most minor things…take a pill because I’m worried? Take a pill because my sex life is bad? Take a pill because I lack fiber in my diet? It goes on and on and on…

Insurance companies, and lawyers are part of the problem,but the problem starts with our quality of healthcare being strictly reactive for the most part.

 

[whatevergirl]

1.) I make too much money to qualify for government aid
2.) The plan I am on is the only one in the state that will carry me. everyone else outright denies even starting coverage.

Pathia, I want to help…if I can. I am going to pm you later tonight.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I shouldn’t have to rely on charity to just be ALIVE. That’s insane.

I know this will sound callous, but it is not my intent to be rude or minimize your obviously tragic circumstances. Please read the entire post and really think about what I’m trying to say.

Life isn’t fair (yes, I know this is trite). As Christians, we try to compensate for how unfair the world really is by living the values of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

If you’re not self sufficient, either individually, or through voluntary, cooperative participation with others, you are relying on others to support you.
In our society, you can get this support either through charity freely given by others out of genuine concern for you, or you can choose to violate charity by participating in government programs that are funded by tax money forcibly taken, not charitably given, from others.

If you can’t provide for your own medical care, then you must rely on others to provide it for you- I guess it is your choice as to whether or not you feel you have the right to force other people to provide for you involuntarily through threat of government force to involuntarily fund programs like UHC.

There are people who have to rely on the charity of others just to be alive-there is no shame in that-I’ve been on both sides of it. It can be a humbling experience, but that experience provides an opportunity for the giver and the receiver to grow closer to one another and to God.

 

[Oscarthecat]

3.) All my problems will be gone as soon as I can move into MA, WA or CA.

(…) However I have too much family business to take care of to leave just yet.

I’m glad to hear that there is light at the end of the tunnel-

What is it about MA, WA, and CA that your medical/insurance problems will go away once there?

If that’s the case, then it sounds like the you have options that are more immediately availabe to you than UHC-

Also, if that’s the case, then it sounds like your problem can be addressed without implementing a gigantic change like UHC…

 

[whatevergirl]

Pathia–yes, MA seems to be on board with what you’re dealing with, but have you contacted HIPAA?

 

[pathia]

Pathia–yes, MA seems to be on board with what you’re dealing with, but have you contacted HIPAA?

I don’t know what they could really do for me.

If that’s the case, then it sounds like the you have options that are more immediately availabe to you than UHC-

Also, if that’s the case, then it sounds like your problem can be addressed without implementing a gigantic change like UHC…

I’m in favor of a universal payer, not government run healthcare, there’s a big difference. One the government just pays the bills, the other the government runs everything top to bottom (Canada versus UK).

What is available in WA, CA and MA? It is against the law to discriminate via ‘gender identity’. Since the law and insurance companies see me as a transsexual, there is only one way to remedy that situation, move to somewhere where it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of that, which WA, CA and MA have laws against. A few others do too, but those are where I have friends.

 

[ribozyme]

In our society, you can get this support either through charity freely given by others out of genuine concern for you, or you can choose to violate charity by participating in government programs that are funded by tax money forcibly taken, not charitably given, from others.

If you can’t provide for your own medical care, then you must rely on others to provide it for you- I guess it is your choice as to whether or not you feel you have the right to force other people to provide for you involuntarily through threat of government force to involuntarily fund programs like UHC.

There are people who have to rely on the charity of others just to be alive-there is no shame in that-I’ve been on both sides of it. It can be a humbling experience, but that experience provides an opportunity for the giver and the receiver to grow closer to one another and to God.

Rather pick government programs… to see people groveling for charity is simply pathetic for me to witness.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Rather pick government programs… to see people groveling for charity is simply pathetic for me to witness.

That’s a rather negative view of those in need…asking for help doesn’t mean sitting on the side of the road with your hand out.

I work in non-governmental social services-the people who come to us for help don’t “grovel” and they are not pathetic, they simply need help.

Government programs use force to distribute money from one person to another- if you don’t think that taxation is forcible, talk to people who are in jail because they conscientously objected to paying even a portion of their taxes.

charities and charitable giving rely on the free exercise of compassion that one person has for another- is that what you find pathetic?

 

[whatevergirl]

The problem that people have with insurers, and I can attest as we are all consumers of auto, health, homeowner, etc…insurance–is that you’re paying for something, and you are being denied coverage, in some instances…so, you say to yourself…what on earth am I paying for? How many of us pay for auto insurance who are accident free, but in the event there is an accident, the insurance company will be there to provide for way more than you paid in, if you had a 3 car pile up, for example. Insurance is an intangible, in a world where we like tangibles. You don’t ever ‘see’ what you’re paying for, so the frustration is understood.

I don’t believe though, that the government will make things better. I just think that universal healthcare will be a shift of management of plans, but not a complete fix for the problems at hand.

pathia–HIPAA could at least point you in the right direction.

 

[whatevergirl]

I also sent you a pm, pathia–regarding GENDA. I will keep in touch, per my note to you.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t know what they could really do for me.

I’m in favor of a universal payer, not government run healthcare, there’s a big difference. One the government just pays the bills, the other the government runs everything top to bottom (Canada versus UK).

What is available in WA, CA and MA? It is against the law to discriminate via ‘gender identity’. Since the law and insurance companies see me as a transsexual, there is only one way to remedy that situation, move to somewhere where it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of that, which WA, CA and MA have laws against. A few others do too, but those are where I have friends.

While it makes sense on paper, I can’t imagine doctors putting up with the wait time it will take for the government to pay them for their services. And who will approve drugs at the pharmacy counter? Who will the pharmacy call to see if something is approved? Will all legal drugs be approved through the government? Will the government be able to pay the huge bills they’ll receive from pharma companies? I just see it being an administrative nightmare. That is why we have free enterprise, and private business. When the government starts telling me what they will pay for or won’t pay for–our culture will take on a communist type feel. Just my thoughts.

I believe we need reform, just not the government becoming insurance claims adjusters. lol

 

[vern_humphrey]

You still haven’t answered the problem of non-covered medical expenditures not counting towards my insurance cap. If they refuse to cover anything of mine, I’m never going to hit my cap, and if that’s what the basis of any sort of aid is, then I will continue to go bankrupt even after this plan was implemented. I don’t have have exact numbers, I simply stopped caring because they got so big, but I think around 75% of the expenses I got actually happened during when I have had insurance, so that’s 75% of my debt that wouldn’t even count towards a cap. Comes out to roughly 250k, or seven years of my income.

Yes, I have answered it.

You pay for coverage. If you are willing to pay enough, you can buy anything. Even coverage of what are now considered “non-covered” expenses.

Now, you apply for assistance based on your most recent income tax return. **Your **situation – what you need and what the insurance company will charge to cover it, and how high they want to set the cap – will be balanced against your ability to pay to determine how much assistance you get.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

I agree with everything you said. Where you go off the deep end is in believing that a)universal health care is the best way to achieve these values and b) that you have the right to FORCE your neighbor through taxation and the destruction of the free market to live according to your values.

universal health care is a good thing–how could it not be? are you saying that some people don’t deserve health care?

im not arguing one way or another which is the best solution to health care, only that everyone deserves it and it should be affordable. to say otherwise is not catholic.

hat you have the right to FORCE your neighbor through taxation and the destruction of the free market to live according to your values.

how very relativistic. of course i will force my values on others because they are rooted in truth. everyone deserves affordable health care. i don’t see what this has to do with the free market. do public libraries and fire departments destroy the free market?

Neither, for that matter, does welfare. Hand-outs don’t protect dignity-they strip people of dignity and relegate generations of the poor to a culture of dependence.

so we shouldn’t give hand outs to the poor. how very catholic of you.

I would argue that government programs, like UHC, violate the Catholic Social Teaching Value of Subsidiarity-Jesus never told us to rely on the government to serve the poor. He told us to get in there and do it ourselves. Also, as I recall, He was not a member of any political part

i agree that health care and welfare would be much better administered at the lowest level possible. president bush attempted this with federally subsidizing charities. but Jesus never said that the government must make abortion illegal either. the natural law is applicable to all and laws exist to encourage us live virtuous lives. a law forcing you to help the poor would be as just as a law forcing you to not kill an unborn baby.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Dee Dee King-

Stop calling people bad catholics just because they don’t believe that government mandated health care is the best or only way to solve the problems of our existing health care system. **We can share the same Catholic values, and still disagree on the solution without either of us being “bad catholics.” **

I suggest you read Laborem Exercens to get a better understanding of the Church’s teachings on the problems with both Marxist and Capitalistic extremes.

universal health care is a good thing–how could it not be? are you saying that some people don’t deserve health care?

I don’t know how I could be more clear that I agree that our current system is inadequate because it does not make health care affordable and available to all who need and want it.

**Where I disagree with you is that I believe that government funded, mandated, or managed health care is a bad bad bad idea.

That does not mean I don’t think people should have access to health care.

Can you see the difference?? No sarcasm intended, I am honestly asking if you understand the difference between holding the value that health care should be affordable and accessible to all and the implementation of a government system called “Universal Health Care.”**

of course i will force my values on others because they are rooted in truth.

I think you mispoke there because you must realize how absolutely contrary to Catholic Teaching that statement is.

The Catholic Church absolutely does not teach that you should force your social values on others. Look at Gelasian Theory, read Gaudiem et Spes.

Our role, as Catholics, is not to affect social change by legislating our morality and forcing it on others. We are to work and pray for the conversion of others, not force conversion using the strong arm of government legislation.

Dee Dee, please understand, I agree with you that we, as Christians, need to find ways to make health care available to all who want and need it.

However, I, as a Catholic, do not believe that I have the right to invoke the force of law to make it happen.

You should not simply advocate a plan that claims to offer universal medical care without seriously considering whether it is best able to achieve that goal. UHC is not the answer to the problem you want to solve.

 

[Oscarthecat]

the natural law is applicable to all and laws exist to encourage us live virtuous lives. a law forcing you to help the poor would be as just as a law forcing you to not kill an unborn baby.

You are just setting up a strawman, but I’ll answer anyway. Please read my whole post and I’ll explain why they’re not the same.

Laws against abortion would protect unborn children from an elective and unjust attack by an aggressor intent on killing them.

Such a law is designed to **prohibit ** a specific, direct behaviour intended to cause harm to another.

On the other side, laws mandating universal health care are not designed to protect individuals from elective and unjust attacks by other citizens. Instead, they are compulsory laws which require citizens to engage in specific behaviours which may or may not directly benefit them.

Prohibitive laws are easy to defend on moral grounds because they generally prohibit one person from engaging in a behaviour which is directly and specifically harmful to another.

Compulsory laws are not as easy to defend on moral grounds because you have to prove that what you are compelling the individual to do is both morally acceptable in itself, is not violating the individual rights of the individual being compelled, and is demonstrably the best way to achieve the good objective sought.

Let me give you an example.
We don’t have laws mandating people to donate blood. Why? Because that would be a compulsory law which, in the eyes of some, is a violation of indiviual rights, and because, as demonstrated by successful blood donation programs, mandating blood draws is not the best or only way to achieve the goal of maintaining an emergency blood supply.

In the same way, mandating people to pay into a government health care system is not the best or only way to make health care affordable and accessible to all who need it.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Dee Dee, please understand, I agree with you that we, as Christians, need to find ways to make health care available to all who want and need it.

then we are in agreement. im not advocating one system over the other. my point is that we as catholics and as human beings are our brother’s keeper. we have an obligation to provide for the poor because they are created in the image of God.

Our role, as Catholics, is not to affect social change by legislating our morality and forcing it on others. We are to work and pray for the conversion of others, not force conversion using the strong arm of government legislation

as i understand it, we are obligated to create a just society as catholics as we pray, “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. God doesn’t will that people die of starvation or get cut into pieces in their mother’s womb.

we are forced to pay for the less fortunate all the time. our government sends aid to other countries and within our country. this is a good and just thing.