Universal Indult

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I think we have all made some very valid and pertinent points here. We must remember always that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church into ALL truth and while we may not all agree on which form the liturgy should take, we can all agree that Christ is the center of the Mass. It’s not about personal preference, what feels better, but what is right and true and if we truly believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church into ALL truth, it will come to the best conclusion eventually, or should I say the TRUE conclusion… 👍
 
The Roman Mass is the Roman Mass is the Roman Mass. I agree that the current Missal leaves much to be desired (i.e. all the variations allowed); but what we should be working toward is a reform of the reform, not a division of the Catholic Church into “High” and “Low” Church Catholics, such as Anglicanism has long had.
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The indult is a temporary provision, not an end-all.
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That’s the thing…The Mass shouldn’t be about our personal preferences—if that was the case then there would be hundreds of various ways to celebrate the Mass. What it’s all about is how the Mass best gives due respect, honor and worship to God and the best reflection of our Catholic faith and theological tradition. I believe there is much of that in the centuries of development that the Traditional Mass has undergone which should be a reason for its preservation in future generations.

The Church could definitely suppress any rite she so chooses like at the time of the Council of Trent when she suppressed rites that were no older the 200 years…However, she makes changes on the grounds of what best honors and represents the Catholic faith in the Mass rather then change it for the sake of reform or modern times. The TLM (Traditional Latin Mass) could go under more development in order to better enhance it but totally suppressing a rite that goes back centuries is something that is unheard of and I believe won’t happen.

Who knows what will happen in the future? You can’t say with any certainty to anyone here that the indult is just a temporary prevision that will latter on be suppressed. For all you know the Church might suppress the Novus Ordo all together and decided it was a failed “experiment” (do they still call it that?).

Whatever decision the future Magisteirum decides the fact is we have two rites within the Latin rite (weird huh?) and that the Church allows us to choose which one we are to attend…If the toleration of another rite in the Church leads to an Angelican Church structure then maybe we should suppress all rites. Or maybe the Anglican High and low division that the church will(???) go through is not just something about Liturgical preference but a crisis that is eating up at the heart of the Church?

Miguel.
 
but truthfully, how many priests have you met who don’t either re-read in the vernacular or provide the readings and proper Gospel in a tri-fold
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Truthfully, very, very few.

In my experience, in a parish setting the priest wil repeat the readingd before the homily.

In a monastery, the readings are usually not repeated, because its assumed that the faithful who are taking the time to go to the non-parochial Mass have the sense to bring their own Missal. The monks don’t need them, because they understand Latin. And just to be safe, the monks will usually, 99.9% of the time, provide Missals for lay-people to use.

Sometimes it happens that the priest just forgets to repeat the readings.

But the gist of what you said was correct. 🙂

It would seem to me to make more sense to just have the subdeacon/deacon/priest chant the readings in the vernacular.

Bu thats just me . . .

BTW, I recall reading some Church Fathers and medieval liturgists saying that the use of Latin as a universal language in the Church was symbolic of the return to one langage, Latin, and a reversal of the dispersal of languages as happened at Babel.

Babel was a result of the Fall, and so the use of Latin was actually a symbol of the redemption wrought by Christ.

Pretty cool, huh?
 
Domini:
The TLM (Traditional Latin Mass) could go under more development in order to better enhance it but totally suppressing a rite that goes back centuries is something that is unheard of and I believe won’t happen.
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This supposes that the Novus Ordo is a separate rite from the Tridentine.

I don’t think this is/was supposed to be the case. What we noew call the Novus Ordo is supposed to be the developed form of the Tridentine Mass.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
I recall reading some Church Fathers and medieval liturgists saying that the use of Latin as a universal language in the Church was symbolic of the return to one langage, Latin, and a reversal of the dispersal of languages as happened at Babel.

Babel was a result of the Fall, and so the use of Latin was actually a symbol of the redemption wrought by Christ.

Pretty cool, huh?
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That *is *cool! :tiphat: I guess you learn something new every day. Do you know who said that and where? Thanks!
 
For all you know the Church might suppress the Novus Ordo all together and decided it was a failed “experiment” (do they still call it that?).

Miguel.

You eluded to this Bull with regards to rites that were not at least 200 years old. For those who don’t have time to read it in its entirety, it’s The Bull Quo Primum Tempore 14 July 1570 from St. Pius X and this exerpt should state satisfactorily why the TLM as outlined by the Council of Trent should never have been surpressed :

“Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women - even of military orders - and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.”

latin-mass-society.org/quoprim.htm
 
A friend of mine told me. He heard from an audio tape he had listened to. (Maybe it was by Michale Davis?)
 
TBOY:

If that Bull means what you think it means, then how do you justify all the reforms of the Tridentine Missal, from 1570 to 1962?

Dude, you have to understand words and poetic, hyperbolic expressions in their historical context.
 
For proof that “now and forever” does not mean what you think it does, I direct you to here:
The very first stand taken by the ‘Tridentiners’ was, that the Bull Quo Primum of Pope St. Pius V could never be set aside. According to the pamphlets circulated around Australia in the late seventies, they are still of that opinion, i.e when dealing with (so they think) ignorant people. Since they base their belief in the immutable character of Quo Primum on the very wording of the Bull, it should be sufficient to show from Tradition that Papal Bulls, using exactly the same phraseology, have been set aside by subsequent Popes, if the Bulls dealt with matters of Church discipline.
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My first example refers to the ‘emphatically strong condemnation’ that the same Pope St. Pius V uttered against anyone who would dare to change or modify the Roman Breviary: promulgated by the Bull *Quod a nobis * of June 7th, 1568. Like the wording of Quo Primum, any interference with the new breviary would likewise bring about the indignation of Almighty God and the wrath of the Apostles Peter and Paul. Yet 34 years later (1602) Pope Clement VIII, and again 29 years later (1631) Pope Urban VII introduced new changes, and each of these two Popes ended their bulls with the same solemn declaration. The whole pseudo-argument of the ‘Tridentiners’ evaporates even further if one considers that a Pope and Saint, Pope St. Pius X, did not consider himself bound by the disciplinary Bulls of his predecessors, and with his own Bull *Divino Afflatu * of 1911 issued his radically reformed Roman Breviary, and ended once again with a repetition of all the strong words used by St. Pius V. Yet again, Pope Paul VI, on the 1st of November 1970, issued his *Liturgia Horarum * in conformity with the directives put forward by the Second Vatican Council.
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Here is a second example. On June 23, 1773, Pope Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuit Order through his Brief Dominus ac Redemptor. The language of this Apostolic Writ once again declares ‘the perpetual validity of the decision then taken, to be inviolately observed for future times’. Yet, in 1814 Pope Pius VII re-established the Society of Jesus.
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Finally, to show that no Pontiff is restricted by the untouchable edicts of his predecessors and - what is more - to show that His Holiness Pope Paul VI was not the first Pope in history to make changes to the Liturgy covered by Quo Primum. It is well known that Pope Pius XII reorganised the Liturgy of the Holy Week and re-introduced the Paschal Vigil, infringing, with these changes, on Quo Primum.
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Domini Canis:
I really don’t buy the argument that this will create some sort of “high” and “low” church like the Anglicans and separate the Catholic faithful into fractions;
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This is exactly what Arinze was thinking when asked about the possibility of allowing somekind of universal indult.
they should have thought of that when they decided to introduce a totally new rite in the 60’s.
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Miguel.
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Totally New Rite?

Are you saying that Novus Ordo is TOTALLY new?
 
As much as I love the Tridentine Mass (and the Novus Ordo when offered TRULY in accordance with Vatican II), I was in Rome a few months ago and had a chance to talk with one of Cardinal Ratzinger’s right hand men in the CDF. When the topic of hoping for such a universal indult came up, this priest was very quick to say straightforwardly, “That’s not going to happen” (although I think he personally would certainly be a fan of the Old Mass). I can only speculate as to the reasons, but I think, as many people have mentioned here, there are certainly good ones for such a position. Granted, this is the CDF and this seems to fall more under Cardinal Arinze’s jurisdiction in the CDW, but I just thought I’d share it with all of you 🙂 Grace and JOY in Christ…
 
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faithfulfinger:
As much as I love the Tridentine Mass (and the Novus Ordo when offered TRULY in accordance with Vatican II), I was in Rome a few months ago and had a chance to talk with one of Cardinal Ratzinger’s right hand men in the CDF. When the topic of hoping for such a universal indult came up, this priest was very quick to say straightforwardly, “That’s not going to happen” (although I think he personally would certainly be a fan of the Old Mass). I can only speculate as to the reasons, but I think, as many people have mentioned here, there are certainly good ones for such a position. Granted, this is the CDF and this seems to fall more under Cardinal Arinze’s jurisdiction in the CDW, but I just thought I’d share it with all of you Grace and JOY in Christ…
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The first time I heard of it I tried not to get my hope’s up. Knowing that things like these are mostly rumors or they eventually don’t plan on going through with it.

I don’t think the majority of the bishops and cardinals would like the idea and perhaps a universal indult isn’t so prudent at this time (God still guides His Church after all…). I remember hearing a bishop on the radio taking about the possibility of altar girls being banned (this was some time ago when the Liturgical Document now out was considering it) and he said that there will be such an out cry among the bishops that this document will never see the light of day. Well, if that’s their attitude towards a “minor” issue such as altar girls could you imagine the rebellion and out rage if they announce the Tridentine Mass could be said by any priest? I think this is what they fear (and there’s some good reason there) and, I believe, Cardinal Hoyos expressed the same concerns privately.

I’m blessed to actually have a Bishop who allows the indult and perhaps Rome could do something to promote further a “wide and generous application” of the TLM --not necessarily issuing a “universal indult” but maybe allowing more Traditional Masses to be said with the direct permission of the Holy See rather then the bishop who might refuse. Or establishing more traditionalist communities and religious orders…I’ve heard that the FSSP turns away many men seeking the priesthood every year just because they don’t have the space in the seminary.

Miguel.
 
There are many features of the Tridentine Mass that enrich me. I grew up with it until I was 14 years old and things changed.

The one thing I liked the best was the “Last Gospel” – the opening verses of the gospel of John. I think that alone is a good reason to frequent the Tridentine Mass.
 
Remember, if disparate languages in an area are really an issue, the Novus Ordo can be celebrated in Latin.
 
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NM2:
Remember, if disparate languages in an area are really an issue, the Novus Ordo can be celebrated in Latin.
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This is certainly true, but the universiality of the Latin language is only one of the benefits of the Tridentine Mass. Don’t get me wrong, though; I think its great for a priest to follow the recommendations of Rome and incorporate Latin into the Novus Ordo, even if the incorporation is as simple as saying “Dominus Vobiscum” instead of “The Lord be with you”.
 
Dr. Colossus:
the expanded Liturgy of the Word brings more Scripture to Catholics than ever before.
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But you don’t get a good cross section of the contents of the Bible. The new lectionary systematically excised harsher readings in favor of love-oriented readings.

See Gagging the Gospels:
lumengentleman.com/index.asp
 
Hananiah,

Are you saying that they took all the love out of Christanity? The bible didn’t change and the love is still there.
 
I truly pray and hope that the Mass of all Ages will be once again restored.
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Really, this comment would offend me if I were an Eastern Catholic. The Tridentine Mas was not the “Mass of all Ages” any more than any authentic and approved rite of the Church is, including the Missa Normativa (i.e. Novus Ordo).

The Tridentine Mass was really a Gallicanized form of the relatively simple Roman Mass of, say, Pope Saint Gregory the Great.
Are you saying that they took all the love out of Christanity?
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Read again what Hananiah wrote. Quite the opposite. A charge made by some is that many “harsh” sounding readings were taken out of the lectionary, and what we are left with is mostly a bunch of more “fluffy” passages that are less offensive or not at all) to modern sensibilities.

I’m not sure how much truth there is to this. It would be better if the site she (he?) linked to were less on the schismatic side.
 
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