Universal Indult

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jremaley:

Wow! That was a quick reply. I’m sorry if I misunderstood your post, but I am very touchy on this issue. When I said that I thought long and hard, I meant it–I myself considered joining, or at least supporting, the society. My only goal is to prevent that from occuring to others. Sorry if it looked like a personal attack. :o

As to your family members in the society, I will and do pray specifically for their conversion.
 
TLM Altar Boy:
jremaley:

Wow! That was a quick reply. I’m sorry if I misunderstood your post, but I am very touchy on this issue. When I said that I thought long and hard, I meant it–I myself considered joining, or at least supporting, the society. My only goal is to prevent that from occuring to others. Sorry if it looked like a personal attack. :o

As to your family members in the society, I will and do pray specifically for their conversion.
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I was actually replying to your previous post, I’m not that fast. In fact I’m very slow in responding just not enough time.

Don’t worry I did not take anything as a personal attack. It is a very touchy subject especially with me having family in the society. As I am typing this, my better half is advising me to move off of this thread and stop bashing SSPX.

I can understand why you would consider joining they have very logical arguments and it looks like (on the surface) they are doing the right thing. Their original “manifesto” (if you will) was extremely interesting and very compelling. That’s the best and worst thing about them all of their letters to Rome and justification are available on their web sites. And as you have noticed when you look deeper it’s a different story.

Ecclesia Dei was really enough to turn me away but I have read most of what they have written. The society members of my family know I am looking into the indult TLM and they think there is hope for me yet. Well I guess you can till by now that there is no hope for me joining SSPX but I still pray that there is hope for them. And thank you for your payers! 👍 SSPX could be a tremendous force that the Church so desperately needs right now it’s just a shame that they maintain the unmovable positions that they do.

I’m glad you have the TLM in your parish. We have a “Traditional Parish” Mater Ecclesiae in a neighboring Diocese that we attend occasionally. I am so torn up with the whole mess of one Roman Rite Church with two Liturgical Rites.

Keep up the good work. If anyone is looking for the TLM there are plenty of alternatives other then SSPX.

latinmass.org/directory.html
 
Unfortunately for my Diocese, they just recently suppressed the Indult Mass causing the faithful from that parish to disperse to various other places including unfortunately an independent chapel not affliated with the Diocese.

A better word would be Schismatic not protestant, the SSPX do not adheare to any heresy, but are merely disobdient.
 
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Iohannes:
Unfortunately for my Diocese, they just recently suppressed the Indult Mass causing the faithful from that parish to disperse to various other places including unfortunately an independent chapel not affliated with the Diocese.
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😦 I’m sorry. What diocese are you in, and did he have a reason to suppress it (priest was calling into question the validity of the NO, etc.)? At the risk of conferring upon myself Armchair Orders, it is beyond me why the bishop would do that if some of his flock might go over to worship with the wolves.

On a tangent, I have to say that IMHO our bishops are–generally–behaving bishoplyer lately. Maybe someone should start another thread on that? Oh well, its 1 o’clock in the morning here, but I might do just that on the morrow if nobody else has yet.
 
I am in the Diocese of Orange:
Here are all the articles I have found:
The Last Traditional Latin Mass was a magnificent Solemn High Mass.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1132744/posts

uvoc.org/OC_Register_Retirement.html

lewrockwell.com/ocregister/catholic-divide.html

losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2004/0406rk.htm

Here is the article from Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission:
Yet, not only priests feel ill used by Bishop Brown. Traditional Catholic laity at St. Mary’s by the Sea in Huntington Beach face the imminent repression of the Tridentine Latin Mass. In April it was announced that retiring Father Daniel Johnson, the pastor at St. Mary’s for the last 20 years, would be replaced by a “pro-temp” pastor, Father Sy Nguyen. A source close to the parish told me that Nguyen has told Father Johnson that the diocese’s ultimate plan is to end the Tridentine Latin Mass. “There is really no good reason to eliminate the Tridentine there,” said the source. “A Norbertine has volunteered to celebrate the Tridentine Mass there indefinitely, so it isn’t for want of a qualified priest. Many in the parish are very saddened by the impending loss of the Tridentine Mass, and they are looking for ways to save it without ruffling feathers and ruining their hope.” Sunday, May 9 was the last time the Tridentine rite was celebrated at St. Mary’s. Henceforth, it will be replaced by the Novus Ordo, in Latin.
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“St. Mary’s is by no means reactionary or extreme in its practice of ‘old time religion,’” continued my source, “but the rabid progressives in the diocese called [St. Mary’s parishioners] reactionaries because it’s the antithesis of all of their goofy hopes and dreams. Bishop Brown apparently sees Father Johnson’s leaving as an excuse to rid the diocese of the practice of traditional Catholicism as it was tolerated during Father Johnson’s tenure.”
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Father Johnson, said my source, "has had an announcement read at every Mass at St. Mary’s, telling the congregants that communion is for Catholics who are properly disposed. He always provided the option to receive communion in the hand, but Father Johnson did not give it in the hand himself; so the announcement directed Catholics wishing to receive in the hand to receive on the communion rail on the left side of the church, adding that communicants should please remember to show proper respect for Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist by consuming any sacred particles that remained in their hands. This announcement sent liberals to the moon. Some folks whined that it made them feel ‘dirty.’ But the announcement didn’t bother the parishioners at St. Mary’s, because they tend to be better catechized than the average Catholic.
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“The fact that they are replacing Father Johnson with a pro temp is bad news. A pro temp has less power and can be removed quickly (canonically speaking). Our fear is that the plan is to cut the heart out of the parish by removing the elements that made it a haven for orthodoxy. The first step is to wipe out the Tridentine Mass, which will result in reducing the number of people who come for Mass each week. As more and more of the trappings of traditional Catholicism are removed (there is an altar rail and it is used; most people kneel for communion there, and we all know how Bishop Brown feels about kneeling), the parish may dry up. We are afraid Bishop Brown wants to hasten the death of the parish so he can sell the property for a tidy sum. It is choice real estate and would fetch a nice price for a bishop looking to build a monument to his ego (a cathedral) or pay off hefty damages from lawsuits coming down the pike.”
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The Diocese had no good reason to get rid of the indult.
 
Dr. Colossus:
I think the greatest fear that most bishops have over granting the Indult would be the loss of the wonderful gifts the Novus Ordo Mass has brought to the Church. The fact that it is in the vernacular makes it infinitely more accessible to the average Catholic. **The fact that the priest now faces the congregation highlights his ministry (as well as provides several practical benefits), and the expanded Liturgy of the Word brings more Scripture to Catholics than ever before. **

That having been said, I would love to have a Tridentine Mass available somewhere in my archdiocese. I was born in 1983, and have never even attended one. I feel like I am missing out on so much tradition and beauty. I think it was a mistake to completely forget the Old Mass. And as far as I’m concerned, the more Latin, the better 👍

But I don’t know if a universal indult would be the way to go. I wouldn’t want to lose the gifts of the Novus Ordo either. They are both, in my opinion, wonderful ways of participating in Christ’s most Holy Sacrifice.
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1.) ALL Roman Rite Masses were once in Latin. Made things very convenient, worldwide.
2.) Facing God with the congregation works well too.
3.) More Bible readings now?
 
In Reply:

1.) Yes, I agree that it was very convenient to be able to attend a Roman Catholic Church anywhere and know precisely what was going on. It wouldn’t be bad to have this option available in every diocese, especially for travellers. But the Novus Ordo Mass allows more people to connect with the meaning of what’s going on. They’re not distracted by having to use missals to keep up. I think that the use of the vernacular makes it more accessible.

2.) Never said it didn’t, but notice I mentioned the practical benefits. I was specifically referring to the fact that it was often difficult to understand the priest when he wasn’t facing the congregation, due to the acoustics of most church buildings.

3.) The new Mass has expanded the readings for Sundays and solemnities to include 2 readings (versus 1 epistle). While there is now only one Gospel reading, over the course of the 3 year cycle, a great deal more of Scripture is read than in the 1962 rite.
 
Dr. Colossus:
In Reply:

1.) Yes, I agree that it was very convenient to be able to attend a Roman Catholic Church anywhere and know precisely what was going on. It wouldn’t be bad to have this option available in every diocese, especially for travellers. But the Novus Ordo Mass allows more people to connect with the meaning of what’s going on. They’re not distracted by having to use missals to keep up. I think that the use of the vernacular makes it more accessible.

2.) Never said it didn’t, but notice I mentioned the practical benefits. I was specifically referring to the fact that it was often difficult to understand the priest when he wasn’t facing the congregation, due to the acoustics of most church buildings.

3.) The new Mass has expanded the readings for Sundays and solemnities to include 2 readings (versus 1 epistle). While there is now only one Gospel reading, over the course of the 3 year cycle, a great deal more of Scripture is read than in the 1962 rite.
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  1. Oh please, do not tell me that the people who attend the Novus Ordo know more about the meaning of Mass than the people who attend the Traditional Latin Mass. I introduced my friend to the traditional rite, after having attended about three times, he understood what was going on. That can also be accomplished with the 1965 Missale Romanum in the vernacular, the Novus Ordo was unecessary. Ask any teen today what the Holy Mass is, many of them do not know and the Mass is in vernacular.
  2. The priest is not having his back to the people, that is not the purpose!! The purpose of facing east(Ad orientem) or facing God is very symbolic because, Christ will resurrection will come from the East. More accurately the priest is leading his congregration. They also have something marvelous called a microphone.
  3. I heard, they left out “tough” readings.
 
Tibi gratias agens, benedixit, fregit, deditque discipulis suis, dicens: Accipite,et manducate ex hoc omnes: Hoc est enim Corpus Meum.
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You’re telling me that the average person is going to hear this and say, “wow, it all makes sense now!. I can’t believe I’ve been going to an English Mass and all it took was a dead language to make me realize what was going on!”

Please. You say your friend “understood what was going on”, but that was only because he knew the Mass in english first. If he didn’t know the real meaning of the consecration beforehand, the 1962 rite wasn’t gonna help him.
 
Iohannes:

You’re right, most teens today don’t know what the Holy Mass is, but in my experience, those who serve at the Tridentine Mass *do. 👍 *

Dr. Colossus:

I disagree about being distracted by using a missalette. A missalette is no more difficult to use than the tri-fold most of us get every Sunday with the songs of the day. Furthermore, when you use a missalette, you read, think, pray, and (for most of the Mass) hear the words at the same time, all helping you to write the words on your brain and in your heart. I would also point out that the movements of the priest and (to some extent) the servers are very explicit and help lead to the understanding of the Mass. :bowdown2:

Actually, you would be surprised by how much Latin we all know. For example, quite often when I serve I don’t get a chance to read the Gospel printed in the trifold until after Mass. However, I almost always know what it is about. For example, in the Gospel a few weeks ago, the priest said: Et continuo exhivit sanguis et aqua. To me, that seems simple enough to decipher; it’s from John 19.

Finally, as to the people frequenting a Tridentine Mass and then suddenly screaming out loud, “I GET IT!”, I’ll be the first to tell you: it ain’t gonna happen. It doesn’t happen in the vernacular either, though. As our good priest has said, “If you don’t bring anything to Mass don’t expect to get much out of it!”–but notice he said “much”. So many people are Catholics only for one hour every Sunday. Maybe if they worship at a Tridentine Mass and then go online just to find out the Latin words for “In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” or to find out what “Dominus Vobiscum” means; who is to say that this will not be the spark to set their souls afire? The simple fact is that Catholicism has a learning curve, and nobody who doesn’t do their homework is going to just magically “get it”. Oh, that it were so! :nope:
 
I keep getting this feeling that I need to clarify (again): I fully support the Traditional Latin Mass. I wish it were more widely available. But, I don’t think there’s a good reason to revert back to it entirely, and I think the New Mass has some good changes that the Latin rite lacks. I also don’t think the Universal Indult would be the cure-all some make it out to be.
 
Please. You say your friend “understood what was going on”, but that was only because he knew the Mass in english first. If he didn’t know the real meaning of the consecration beforehand, the 1962 rite wasn’t gonna help him.
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What if had grown up hearing Mass in Latin, and following along in his Missal?

In which case, I do see the value of a vernacular rite for peoples who are illiterate.
 
Dr. Colossus:
I keep getting this feeling that I need to clarify (again): I fully support the Traditional Latin Mass. I wish it were more widely available. But, I don’t think there’s a good reason to revert back to it entirely, and I think the New Mass has some good changes that the Latin rite lacks. I also don’t think the Universal Indult would be the cure-all some make it out to be.
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I’ve said both of those things from the beginning. 😃 I fully understand that you support the Traditional Mass, and I agree that we shouldn’t revert to it entirely.

However, I feel that I must squabble about words a little here. It seems to me that no Mass is ever “lacking” anything, but that all rubrics bring out different aspects of the Sacrifice of Calvary. In my opinion, the two different rubrics are complimentary. I agree that the universal indult is not a cure-all, but if I look around, I simply do not see the “wide and generous application” the Supreme Pontiff called for. As I stated before, if the bishops all made the Traditional Latin Mass freely available, this would be a non-issue–but they haven’t.

It seems like to some extent we’ve started to talk more about the benefits of the two rubrics rather than how to make the Old Mass readily available. Maybe His Holiness should issue a clarification on what exactly a “wide and generous application” is. Also, does anyone know why after Vatican II Pope Paul VI didn’t just allow the Traditional Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular? It seems to me that that was and still is yet another possibility to help solve the problem. I would prefer the Latin, but it might provide some middle ground, though maybe that would only make things worse. :hmmm: Thoughts?
 
Sounds about like my own line of reasoning, actually. I guess we agree a lot more than we disagree.
 
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Iohannes:
Unfortunately for my Diocese, they just recently suppressed the Indult Mass causing the faithful from that parish to disperse to various other places including unfortunately an independent chapel not affliated with the Diocese.

A better word would be Schismatic not protestant, the SSPX do not adheare to any heresy, but are merely disobdient.
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Isn’t it heretical to deny the authority of the Bishop of Rome?

Seems to me protestant (in a general sense) is a pretty accurate label.
 
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Ham1:
Isn’t it heretical to deny the authority of the Bishop of Rome?

Seems to me protestant (in a general sense) is a pretty accurate label.
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They do not deny the authority of the pope, they are disobiedent to him, there is a difference. They are schismatic.

It is only heresy if they proclaim that St. Peter was not the first pope. Otherwise Eastern Orthodox would be heretics and their Holy Communion would be invalid. So again, the protestant label does not work. Schismatic would be the more correct answer.
 
They do not deny the authority of the pope, they are disobiedent to him.
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Excepting the fact that many of the SSPX troupe are waxing sedevacantists. They won’t admit to it, but they question the validity of Pope JPII’s election.
 
Dr. Colossus:
Excepting the fact that many of the SSPX troupe are waxing sedevacantists. They won’t admit to it, but they question the validity of Pope JPII’s election.
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That would still not make the SSPX a heretical group if some of the priest decide to hold a closeted sedevacantist position.

Can we please call them schismatics?? Is that really hard to do? Come on!!! They are not protestants or like protestants. The closest group to compare to them is the Eastern Orthodox Church. If SSPX are heretical or like protestants then their Holy Communion would be invalid.

The LA Archdiocese has done many heretical things within the Church and yet they are not punish.
 
I myself do usually refer to SSPXers as schismatics. But it’s not hard to see the parallels between their way of thinking and protestantism. I still think it’s just a matter of degree.
 
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