Universal Indult

[PASCENDI]

itsjustdave1988:

Hans Kung and Charles Curran, etc., seemed to have had no trouble celebrating the Old Mass, and yet it didn’t seem to keep them from straying from the Catholic faith. Sadly, there has been many a heretic that have celebrated the Old Mass.

I’ve never been to a mass offered by Fathers Kung or Curran but I’m pretty certain they would prefer the extra lattitude afforded by the New Mass :banghead: :banghead:

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Despite an aweful lot of speculation, nobody has shown correlation to widespread dissention and poor catechesis to the New Mass, although that seems to be what is implied.

Feel free to speculate. Just don’t expect agreement based upon nothing more than speculation. Prefer the Latin Mass if you wish. I don’t. I’ve been to both and don’t see the 1962 Latin Mass as the cure-all for the dissent and scandals of the Catholic Church. Those that grew up with the traditional Latin Mass were some of the worst dissenters in American Catholic history.

God bless,

Dave

 

[lyoncoeur]

Not sure if this has been said yet…but…rather than an “Universal Indult” why not just remove the the question of weather the TLM is allowed or not from the Bishop?

The Holy Father has recognised those who appriciate the TLM by stating that HE would "guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations"and further that our desire for the TLM is should be met with “a wide and generous application”. {From Ecclesia Dei}

---

The problem, as I see it, is Bishops who are hostile {for whatever reason} toward the TLM…and deny those guarantees from the Pope.

Seems to me that it is a matter of disobediance on the part of some Bishops. If you take the Language of Ecclesia Dei, along with the language of Quattuor abhinc annos* …*wherever the TLM is desired it should be made available.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

lyoncoeur,

I agree. I think each Bishop who denies the Latin Mass have some 'splaining to do. I see no reason for suppressing an approved liturgy of the Catholic Church. Are they afraid they may have to learn Latin?

God bless,

Dave

 

[dcs]

itsjustdave1988:

I instead prefer the Novus Ordo 1) as a better tool for catechesis as it is said predominantly aloud and in the venacular

Then why are so many adults so poorly catechized? The prayers of the Missal make up only part of the catechesis of the Mass. There are other elements of catechesis – the gestures, the vestments, etc. For example, the old rubric by which a priest kept his thumb and forefinger together after the Consecration is loaded with catechetical value – it reinforces the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in every Particle of the Blessed Sacrament. This is just one example.

1. it results in more people in the pews and therefore a greater number of souls being sanctified

How do you figure? Mass attendance is about a third of what it used to be. Under Dennis Cardinal Dougherty, 99 per cent. of Philadelphia Catholics made their Easter Duty. (This at a time when the requirements for making the Easter Duty were a bit more strict.) I will bet you that today 99 per cent. of Catholics don’t even know what the Easter Duty is.

1. it results in more conversions.

Once more, how do you figure? There is no evidence that more people have converted in the time since the Novus Ordo was imposed that before. In fact, the current number of conversions to Catholicism in the U.S. is approximately equal to the number of adult baptisms before the Novus Ordo was imposed. One can assume, I think, that the number of annual conversions prior to the NOM was at least as high as it is today.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Then why are so many adults so poorly catechized?

Considering that about half of all Americans cannot program their VCR, I am not suprised that many do not know about the faith they claim to profess.

In brief… people are generally slothful when it comes to learning and many other things. I believe a general slothfulness is evident at an ever increasing rate across many disciplines since the first half of the 20th century.

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

DCS,

I’m an engineer by trade. I’m familiar with statistical analysis. It’s not an easy thing or a certain thing to make inferences and assumptions with regard to statistics.

About 100 years ago, less than half of all Christians were Catholic. Now, more than half are Catholic. We can only hazard a guess as to why. But in the past 100 years, ALL of Christianity has decreased as a portion of world population, Catholicism having a significantly less decrease than either Protestantism or Orthdoxy. Again, we can only hazard a guess as to why. I do not find plausible that the Novus Ordo Mass is responsible for the worldwide decrease in ALL Christianity. It seems more likely that it is just easier to be a sinful person than to be pious.

Nevertheless, I do have several years of practical experience in catechesis and sponsoring others into the Catholic faith. The Novus Ordo is of benefit to me in doing so, whereas the traditional Latin Mass, as I’ve said before, is like solid food, when the average American can only digest milk. It is a great liturgy for Catholics who are hungry for greater learning with regard to the ancient traditions of Catholicism, and a fondness for the Mass of all the great saints of the middle ages. Equally great are the the other ancient liturgies of the Catholic Church, said in many ancient languages now not well understood by the average American who might potentially convert to Catholicism.

There’s lots of catechesis packed into the traditional Latin Mass. However, it is not an easy thing for a potential convert from a Baptist church, for example, to grasp. There will be some, no doubt, that are very attracted to something radically different from the worship they are accustomed to. However, I haven’t seen this as a reality in the Diocese of Colorado Springs, where both the traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass are available to the faithful. There are about 30 new converts a year at my parish. Are the parishes offering the traditional Latin Mass seeing this number of converts annually? Not where I live. New TLM members are typically already Catholics who are “church shopping.”

God bless,

Dave

 

[dcs]

itsjustdave1988:

About 100 years ago, less than half of all Christians were Catholic. Now, more than half are Catholic. We can only hazard a guess as to why. But in the past 100 years, ALL of Christianity has decreased as a portion of world population, Catholicism having a significantly less decrease than either Protestantism or Orthdoxy. Again, we can only hazard a guess as to why. I do not find plausible that the Novus Ordo Mass is responsible for the worldwide decrease in ALL Christianity. It seems more likely that it is just easier to be a sinful person than to be pious.

But it’s always been easier to be a sinful person than to be pious. And, in any case, I did not make the argument that the Novus Ordo is responsible for the decline in church attendance – I was simply answering your claim that it brought more souls into the Church.

Nevertheless, I do have several years of practical experience in catechesis and sponsoring others into the Catholic faith. The Novus Ordo is of benefit to me in doing so, whereas the traditional Latin Mass, as I’ve said before, is like solid food, when the average American can only digest milk.

I would say, given the spotty Mass attendance of the average American Catholic, that he has developed an intolerance for lactose.

There’s lots of catechesis packed into the traditional Latin Mass. However, it is not an easy thing for a potential convert from a Baptist church to grasp. There will be some, no doubt, that are very attracted to something substantially different from what they are accustomed to. However, I haven’t seen this as a reality in the Diocese of Colorado Springs, where both the traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass are available to the faithful.

Ah, but they are not available on the same scale and the Latin Mass is frequently viewed as something that is “forbidden” or “schismatic” even when it is neither. The first time I assisted at the TLM I felt like nothing so much as a sneak.

 

[dcs]

itsjustdave1988:

Considering that about half of all Americans cannot program their VCR, I am not suprised that many do not know about the faith they claim to profess.

Non sequiter, people don’t go to church to learn how to program their VCRs. I don’t know how to program my VCR, either, and I don’t even know how to change the message on my voicemail. However, I’ve never taken classes for either, nor do I attend weekly seminars at which the virtues of VCRs and voicemail are supposed to be extoled.

 

[Ham1]

Iohannes:

Many youths I have talked have no Idea that Holy Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary and they attend the regular St. Suburbia Novus Ordo.

Many youths I have talked to UNDERSTAND FULLY that Holy Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary and they attend the regular St. Suburbia Novus Ordo.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Ah, but they are not available on the same scale

That can easily change, but what is stopping it? There’s no suppression of the TLM in my diocese, yet the attendance remains unimpressive.

Latin Mass is frequently viewed as something that is “forbidden” or “schismatic” even when it is neither.

Not in Colorado Springs. The TLM is celebrated once a month in the Cathedral. One would expect such an indorsement would do wonders for the TLM movement in C. Springs, yet we have more people attending daily Mass at my parish than those attending Sunday Mass at the TLM parish.

With all the claims that the faithful are starving for a suppressed TLM liturgy, the evidence here in C. Springs seems not to support it.

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Non sequiter, people don’t go to church to learn how to program their VCRs

You miss my point. Sloth is prevalent across many disciplines, not just withing Catholic catechesis. American Protestants are plagued by the same lousy understanding of their respective faiths.

God bless,

Dave

 

[JNB]

Dave, again, the TLM in your diocese only recently moved to St Joespeh Parish, how well can you except attendence to the old rite mass be if the mass start time was at 7:30 every Sunday, as it was for a while? You keep on stressing attendence this and attendence that, but I have a few questions, was it the 8 AM low mass or the 12 PM sung mass that you went to? The TLM faces much opposition, even from those who call themselves conservative, and again, there is the fact meny do not know the old mass is allowed even if it is in their diocese. Again, and I stress this, if the Latin Mass was doing that badly, they would not have added an additional mass on Sundays.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

12pm Mass, but they were not sung. I wish they were. Perhaps the next time it will be.

Before St. Joseph’s it was celebrated solely at the Cathedral. I was told by the folks at St. Joseph’s that it moved there due to the construction at the Cathedral. I hope it moves back to the Cathedral on a regular basis, as it is closer to where I work.

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Again, and I stress this, if the Latin Mass was doing that badly, they would not have added an additional mass on Sundays.

I don’t contend it is doing badly. I support it and have donated money to it so that it may continue.

However, the 50 people in attendance at the 12pm Sunday Mass, out of the 120,000 registered Catholics in my diocese does not seem to be and a positive indicator in favor of the Latin Mass.

Perhaps it will become more popular … we shall see. How long would be reasonable for us to expect to see at least the small chapel to be filled to capacity, such that another parish might offer it as well? Or is it perhaps that the additional Mass on Sunday was to give the same small group of people more flexibility in there worship time, not because the pews were overflowing?

God bless,

Dave

 

[Iohannes]

In my diocese, there was a popular Parish that had the Traditional Latin Mass and it was well attended. All of a sudden, when the pastor retired, the Diocese decided to revoke the indult despite 1050+ signatures and letters to the Bishop. The parish and the parishoners wanted the Traditional Latin Mass but the bishop still took away the indult.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

itsjustdave1988:

The TLM is celebrated once a month in the Cathedral.

I know that at the Indult Parish I attend it is pretty full. And I notice there are usually more men than women in attendance. Also families with young children attend. The TLM is every Sunday at 8 a.m. (not a particularly convenient time considering the drive most people have to make).

The indult is located about twenty miles outside of town, out past an industrial area where very few people would normally drive by.

Also, I wonder if having the TLM only once a month in Colorado Springs might affect attendance at least a little bit. People get used to attending a different parish the rest of the month and so don’t bother switching parishes once every month.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Iohannes,

The bishop ought to be ashamed of himself. Can you tell me who it was? I like to keep track of which Bishops are trustworthy and which are lousy.

God bless,

Dave

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I wonder if having the TLM only once a month in Colorado Springs might affect attendance at least a little bit. People get used to attending a different parish the rest of the month and so don’t bother switching parishes once every month.

Let me clarify …

The TLM is offered every day at St. Joseph’s parish, twice on Sunday. I’m told it is offered one Sunday a month ALSO at the Cathedral (that is, in addition to St. Joseph’s). I haven’t been to the Cathedral’s TLM Mass, however. I’ll send an email and ask about it.

God bless,

Dave

 

[dcs]

itsjustdave1988:

The bishop ought to be ashamed of himself. Can you tell me who it was? I like to keep track of which Bishops are trustworthy and which are lousy.

I believe Iohannes is referring to the revocation of the Indult at St. Mary’s By-the-Sea in the Diocese of Orange County, California, whose ordinary is +Todd Brown.

The Norbertines offered to continue to celebrate the Mass after Fr. Johnson retired.