unmarried and pregnant RE teacher

  • Thread starter Thread starter bakerst
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Your employer has the right to know the truth and then, unfortunately, there may be consequences for you. This is a religious institution, and they have the right to uphold the contract that you both signed. Ideally they would move you to a position that would require you to not interact with the children until the issue has been resolved – your marriage to the father of your baby – but that is ultimately up to them and the listed remedies set out in your contract.

If the unions or governmental laws or whatever are allowed to usurp the rights of a private, faith-based institution – which, by the way, our Government is trying to do with the HHS mandate – then all of our Freedom of Religion rights are at stake. The fact of the matter is that the Government has no right to come in and tell the Church that the contract they signed is invalid when one of the employees breaks the moral clauses included.

I do realize that the OP is in another country so the US Constitution does not apply, but I’m a bit appalled at the responses of some of the American citizens who are posting replies to fight the Church’s position on this. Be careful what you advocate for in this situation because it can and will come back to bite you!

Edited: I did got back and look at some of the responses and I believe most of the responses I’m objecting to were from non-US citizens so I apologize, but my opinion still stands: If you advocate a government/union usurping the Church’s position on this, you’re on a slippery slope for the next issue they try to overrule the Church on.
 
What IS the “Church’s” position?

I thought we were pro-life?

People screw up, and they confess and are forgiven. Maybe they make reparation somehow too.

Being pro-life means we support life.

Being pro-life is different from anti-abortion - which is just anti-death.

If we are just anti abortion we say - no abortion. Now go on your way and good luck.

Being pro-life we support people - even when they’ve made mistakes. That is the Church’s position.

And yes, the union has a right to speak on this issue because it’s one of the parties in the contractual negotiations.

You cannot be pro-life and then fire someone when they get pregnant.:dts:

Perhaps 1Ke is correct. Ask to be reassigned for the duration.
 
triumphguy said:
What IS the “Church’s” position?

I thought we were pro-life?

People screw up, and they confess and are forgiven. Maybe they make reparation somehow too.

Being pro-life means we support life.

Being pro-life is different from anti-abortion - which is just anti-death.

If we are just anti abortion we say - no abortion. Now go on your way and good luck.

Being pro-life we support people - even when they’ve made mistakes. That is the Church’s position.

And yes, the union has a right to speak on this issue because it’s one of the parties in the contractual negotiations.

You cannot be pro-life and then fire someone when they get pregnant.:dts:

Perhaps 1Ke is correct. Ask to be reassigned for the duration.
Click to expand...
The Church is pro-life (and so I am I, BTW). The issue is the Church that the OP works for has a morals clause in their contract and the OP works with children in a RE situation. Now, she works with high school students so this could be a great teaching moment; but that is up to the Church that she works for and not up to the Government/unions to mandate. I do not wish the OP fired, but that may very will be what the contract calls for. She signed the contract knowing the full ramifications of it – or at least she should have if she read it.

My argument is that this is a religious freedom issue that the Government has no business being involved in – plus it’s a business matter. There is a contract signed by both parties and both parties should be held to it.

And, yes, this is a hot topic for me – more so than would usually be with what the Government in the US is attempting to do to the Catholic church by mandating that they dispurse birth control as part of their health care plans. You cannot start piece-mealing religious freedom or you will lose it!!!
 
Part of religious freedom is not casting the first stone too.

I’m not saying you’re not pro-life, but firing someone doesn’t protect religious liberty:shrug: YMMV
 
triumphguy, I think you’re missing the point of my argument. I don’t want the OP fired – I personally don’t think she should be. I think the Church that she works for should show compassion and grace and mercy. Maybe they find another position for her.

My argument is that she signed a contract knowing what the rules were, and she (possibly) broke them – don’t know what the contract said, but she indicated a morality clause. To allow the unions or Government to override that is what I’m arguing against. You don’t get it both ways. You don’t have religious freedom against the mandate of birth control distribution/coverage but not on how you run your “business.” You’ve got to chose. But if you chose to allow the Government/unions to overrule the Church on this issue, you’re abdicating your religious freedom rights in all other areas. Because once the Government has been permitted to interfere, the game’s over.

Again, I realize we are talking about two different countries – the UK and the USA – but religious freedom is something that everyone should strive for. Otherwise, you’re going to have your Government tell you what kind of religion you can practice and where.
 
Well, you cause scandal by remaining in the job pregnant. You are supposed to be teaching against this, and instead, your body will be teaching something else… You can explain the situation of your error in your personal life to everyone, use yourself as an object lesson, “I sinned” etc., but that’s pretty invasive, a lot to put yourself through while you are pregnant.

It seems the only reasonable thing to do is marry, and make this right. That is, if he is one you intend to marry. Was he more of a fling, or a pastime? If not, is the reason you hesitate to marry is because you wanted a dream wedding, instead of one in haste? If its the wedding you are holding off for, that seems worth giving up, particularly if you want to keep your job for practical reasons before the baby comes. That means get married in haste, and make your child legitimate, and your pregnancy legitimate, and have a celebration of your marriage at some later date. Really, if the wedding is an issue, give it up because how callous to consider causing scandal remaining unmarried in your public position as a religious educator just so you can have a wedding in a white dress and a party afterward.

But maybe the father is not marriage material? Does not really love you, so is not concerned about what is best for you?
 
Most dioceses will not allow someone who is pregnant to marry. Nor will they allow them to marry within 6 months of the birth.

This is to prevent providing ground for annulments.

An important point to remember and keep stressing is the wonderful gift of life that has been given to the OP, and the awesome (in both meanings of the word) responsibilities that follow.

Also unions are important. They help people protect their contractual rights in times of stress when they may not be able to argue for themselves.
 
Oh_Charlotte said:
Well, you cause scandal by remaining in the job pregnant. You are supposed to be teaching against this, and instead, your body will be teaching something else… You can explain the situation of your error in your personal life to everyone, use yourself as an object lesson, “I sinned” etc., but that’s pretty invasive, a lot to put yourself through while you are pregnant.

It seems the only reasonable thing to do is marry, and make this right. That is, if he is one you intend to marry. Was he more of a fling, or a pastime? If not, is the reason you hesitate to marry is because you wanted a dream wedding, instead of one in haste? If its the wedding you are holding off for, that seems worth giving up, particularly if you want to keep your job for practical reasons before the baby comes. That means get married in haste, and make your child legitimate, and your pregnancy legitimate, and have a celebration of your marriage at some later date. Really, if the wedding is an issue, give it up because how callous to consider causing scandal remaining unmarried in your public position as a religious educator just so you can have a wedding in a white dress and a party afterward.

But maybe the father is not marriage material? Does not really love you, so is not concerned about what is best for you?
Click to expand...
I think you really need to re-read the OP.

And her child is legitimate whether she marries or not.
 
Oh_Charlotte said:
Well, you cause scandal by remaining in the job pregnant. You are supposed to be teaching against this, and instead, your body will be teaching something else… You can explain the situation of your error in your personal life to everyone, use yourself as an object lesson, “I sinned” etc., but that’s pretty invasive, a lot to put yourself through while you are pregnant.
Click to expand...
 
1ke said:
The formation of the children comes first.

Ask to be moved to a non-teaching role, preferrably in another school or location, so that you can maintain benefits while also not sending mixed messages to impressionable children.
Click to expand...
👍

May God bless you and your little one!
 
Lucky7 said:
I think you really need to re-read the OP.

And her child is legitimate whether she marries or not.
Click to expand...
Culturally, yes, certainly. And same-sex marrieds achieving a child by artificial means is also culturally legitimate, as about anything is culturally legitimate these days, in fact celebrated! Yes, in any case the child is an innocent, but there is a grave wrong in how the child came about that we Catholics cannot pretend is not, so just because the child is in fact without fault. In the Catholic faith we are called to another standard, and her child was conceived in mortal sin. Yes, we are sinners and we fall short of what God calls us to, and yes, we can ask forgiveness and be forgiven. But she is a teacher of the Catholic faith in a Catholic school, and this is a case for scandal. She has a duty to do the right thing as far as her vocation is concerned. And her baby as well. Its not an easy situation she is in, but she must seek to do the most right thing on all accounts.
 
Oh_Charlotte said:
Culturally, yes, certainly. And same-sex marrieds achieving a child by artificial means is also culturally legitimate, as about anything is culturally legitimate these days, in fact celebrated! Yes, in any case the child is an innocent, but there is a grave wrong in how the child came about that we Catholics cannot pretend is not, so just because the child is in fact without fault. In the Catholic faith we are called to another standard, and her child was conceived in mortal sin. Yes, we are sinners and we fall short of what God calls us to, and yes, we can ask forgiveness and be forgiven. But she is a teacher of the Catholic faith in a Catholic school, and this is a case for scandal. She has a duty to do the right thing as far as her vocation is concerned. And her baby as well. Its not an easy situation she is in, but she must seek to do the most right thing on all accounts.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of the stories I’d hear back in the 1970’s of teen girls that got pregnant and attended a Catholic school. They could either quietly abort, continue high school and no one was the wiser or they could embrace the pregnancy and be forced to quit school (and attend “night school” or get a G.E.D.), regardless whether the child was placed for adoption or raised by the mother.

For the past year, it appears that the main focus of faithful American Catholics (or at least the ones that post here on CAF) is to make abortion illegal. If they cannot do that, the focus is on “making abortion rare”. Holding on to attitudes such as shaming the mother of a child conceived outside of marriage isn’t going to help keeping abortion stats low. I realize that the OP was talking about unwed mothers and the majority of the posts have been about how to lower that number, but trying to keep or reinstate “shame” upon unwed moms isn’t going to help prevent abortions…
 
As Lucky 7 suggested, I reread the original post.

Lucky 7 asserts the baby will not be illegitimate, but I am not sure by what standard she means. I assume Lucky 7 is saying that by popular culture’s opinion the baby will be legitimate?

While the term is unpopular in this day, the term legitimate means the same thing it has meant for all ages - a child born of parents not lawfully married. According to Bakerst, she is not married to her boyfriend, and at this point, Bakerst and her boyfriend plan to allow their baby the indignity of being born in the state of illegitimacy. How sad.
bakerst said:
I am an Religious Education teacher in a Catholic High School in the UK. I have along term partner and we intend to marry in the next few years. I have a strong faith although I have obviously not practised in some aspects of my life, otherwise I would not be in this position. I realise that I have not acted in the manner appropriate to my position by falling pregnant…
Click to expand...
It sounds like you are already living with your partner as if you were a married person, and this is the normal result of married life. It sounds like while teaching Religious Ed you made a conscious choice to life other than what you were teaching. Maybe face this?

If you intend to marry in the next few years, why not now? If you are living as if you are fully married, how did you not expect babies to come? It sounds possible you made more than one choice against our Church’s teaching. Do you intend to continue on this way, or make it right?

You say,
bakerst said:
… We want to marry and we will, but my partner does not want to do it while I am pregnant plus the financial implications would be high and we now have a child on the way.
Click to expand...
What are the financial implications of getting married? I cannot think of anything unless you are talking about a wedding. And that’s pretty shallow and selfish. What do you think your baby will want? To be born of married parents, I think!

Unless of course the father is unworthy, then you have another scenario. If he is an unworthy husband, then better for the baby to be born illegitimately. Cut things off with the man, and if he is interested in his child, he will have his legal access to his child, and you will be living a life many are, and will do the best you can with it.
bakerst said:
I feel ashamed of myself and scared. Scared of being judged and shunned from my community. I do not know my rights and I am looking into this, but I don’t want this situation to descend into any kind of a battle. Nor do I want to bring shame on the community.
Click to expand...
Your shame is a healthy thing and there is a cure. Repent, go to confession, and your sins are forgiven - and you go forth and do the right thing now. That’s the cure for your shame.

Your way out is to seek wisdom of many. You have what we said here, now best to talk to some real people. Go to a holy priest with a reputation for wisdom and take what he says to heart. Seek wise counsel and give yourself time to absorb it and pray before the Lord about it. You are at a crossroads in your life and you cannot do it all and have it all. What matters is that you make the best and most right choice for this situation. Do the right thing, and good people will recognize that you have done the right thing. Not all people, of course. But if you are calumnized, no matter, you will have a sense of self respect and dignity for having done the right.

You already have made the wrong choice to live with your boyfriend as if he was a husband when he is not. You cannot go back and undo, but you can do the right thing from this time forward, and live a life of dignity and honour.

What did you plan to do if not marry? Continue living with him as if he were a husband?? That’s wrong on top of wrong! The other option is to live chaste lives in separate households while you raise the baby you had together on your own. Is this your plan??

Do what is right, and do what is best for your child, and while you may have some sacrifices now, you will have a clear conscience!
 
marci said:
If you both planed on getting married before the pregnancy why not just go ahead and do it now?
Click to expand...
That is what I was going to ask.

Additionally, is not normal for students to know if their teachers are married or not? I don’t think I ever knew that about any of my teachers.
 
Oh_Charlotte said:
As Lucky 7 suggested, I reread the original post.

Lucky 7 asserts the baby will not be illegitimate, but I am not sure by what standard she means. I assume Lucky 7 is saying that by popular culture’s opinion the baby will be legitimate?

While the term is unpopular in this day, the term legitimate means the same thing it has meant for all ages - a child born of parents not lawfully married. According to Bakerst, she is not married to her boyfriend, and at this point, Bakerst and her boyfriend plan to allow their baby the indignity of being born in the state of illegitimacy. How sad.

It sounds like you are already living with your partner as if you were a married person, and this is the normal result of married life. It sounds like while teaching Religious Ed you made a conscious choice to life other than what you were teaching. Maybe face this?

If you intend to marry in the next few years, why not now? If you are living as if you are fully married, how did you not expect babies to come? It sounds possible you made more than one choice against our Church’s teaching. Do you intend to continue on this way, or make it right?

You say,

What are the financial implications of getting married? I cannot think of anything unless you are talking about a wedding. And that’s pretty shallow and selfish. What do you think your baby will want? To be born of married parents, I think!

Unless of course the father is unworthy, then you have another scenario. If he is an unworthy husband, then better for the baby to be born illegitimately. Cut things off with the man, and if he is interested in his child, he will have his legal access to his child, and you will be living a life many are, and will do the best you can with it.

Your shame is a healthy thing and there is a cure. Repent, go to confession, and your sins are forgiven - and you go forth and do the right thing now. That’s the cure for your shame.

Your way out is to seek wisdom of many. You have what we said here, now best to talk to some real people. Go to a holy priest with a reputation for wisdom and take what he says to heart. Seek wise counsel and give yourself time to absorb it and pray before the Lord about it. You are at a crossroads in your life and you cannot do it all and have it all. What matters is that you make the best and most right choice for this situation. Do the right thing, and good people will recognize that you have done the right thing. Not all people, of course. But if you are calumnized, no matter, you will have a sense of self respect and dignity for having done the right.

You already have made the wrong choice to live with your boyfriend as if he was a husband when he is not. You cannot go back and undo, but you can do the right thing from this time forward, and live a life of dignity and honour.

What did you plan to do if not marry? Continue living with him as if he were a husband?? That’s wrong on top of wrong! The other option is to live chaste lives in separate households while you raise the baby you had together on your own. Is this your plan??

Do what is right, and do what is best for your child, and while you may have some sacrifices now, you will have a clear conscience!
Click to expand...
Bolding mine. Did you seriously just say that? IMHO, only idle gossips have any need for the term ‘legitimate’ and illegitimate when referring to flesh and blood *human beings, * and as I am sure you are not one, I d suggest you cease using such as despicable term. You are not helping anyone, least of all the OP.
 
Babies are always legitimate. In fact they are gift and grace.

The struggle for the OP is to see (and welcome) the gift in the midst of the chaos.

And to repeat for people who keep asking the same question: Most (all western?)dioceses will not allow the marriage of someone who is pregnant.
 
Oh_Charlotte said:
As Lucky 7 suggested, I reread the original post.

Lucky 7 asserts the baby will not be illegitimate, but I am not sure by what standard she means. I assume Lucky 7 is saying that by popular culture’s opinion the baby will be legitimate?

While the term is unpopular in this day, the term legitimate means the same thing it has meant for all ages - a child born of parents not lawfully married. According to Bakerst, she is not married to her boyfriend, and at this point, Bakerst and her boyfriend plan to allow their baby the indignity of being born in the state of illegitimacy. How sad.
Click to expand...
My point is that the Church considers that child legitimate…in fact, all children are legitimate…at least that is my understanding. Maybe someone can find some support for that?

Edit: Found this old thread in Ask the Apologist:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11787&highlight=illegitimate+illegitimacy
 
JaneGrey said:
Bolding mine. Did you seriously just say that? IMHO, only idle gossips have any need for the term ‘legitimate’ and illegitimate when referring to flesh and blood *human beings, * and as I am sure you are not one, I d suggest you cease using such as despicable term. You are not helping anyone, least of all the OP.
Click to expand...
Maybe you aren’t Catholic? Do you not think there is any benefit to the child to be born into the world with Sacramentally married parents? Do you think its just as good for the baby to be born to parents living in a state of mortal sin? (because the original poster made no mention of correcting her lifestyle, only of putting off marriage for a few years till they could “afford” it… and we are still not sure what it is she wants to afford, other than my guess, a nice wedding.)

To be born of parents married in the eyes of God and all of Heaven and bestowed with one of the great and holy and powerful Sacraments is a gift of great worth. It really does matter to the baby!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top