Upon which Rock/rock?

[Nicea325]

**You haven’t answered my question. Why doesn’t the author use petros-petros but petros-petra? **

First of all,Jesus spoke Aramaic,not Greek. It was translated into Greek and why would the NT author assign a male a feminine name? Greek as many languages are gender based,unlike English.

Jesus changed Peter’s name to Cephas(Kephas) and that in itself bears a huge significance that the majority of non-Catholics blow off. Time to learn the OT lot better in its entirety.

 

[Nicea325]

**God promised the Holy Spirit to all believers. **

And did the Holy Spirit proclaim thousands of different truths? Then why the need to create 39,000 different churches? Protestanism is riddled with errors

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No He doesn’t.

Study the Old Testament and you’ll see that God was very upset when they wanted a king. Because God was their King until then … and He was unseen. God wasn’t pleased at all with the Jews’ request.

And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. ~1 Samuel 8:7

Until then they had judges and god as their king. Now they wanted someone to represent them and to be the boss.

God doesn’t need a physical prime minister. He sent the Holy Spirit as a substitute of His Son on earth.

Did God not choose David to sit upon the throne? Was God not pleased with Solomon on the throne?

Why did the angel of the Lord refer to Christ receiving the throne of David?

**Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. **

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What did the early Church fathers believe about the primacy of Peter?

Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? “Behold, we have left all and have followed you” [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, “On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. … Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).
Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” he says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church” . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

 

[KathleenGee]

Today is Easter Sunday.

God says He is “I am Who am”…outside of time and limits and being a creature, the great reality that creates through His will. It is through Jesus Christ the Heavenly Father created the universe, that Jesus is in fact The Word of God, the Word of Faith.
The Old Testament calls upon the God as our rock of salvation, God came to Moses at Mt Sinai, we are exhorted to climb the mountain of the Lord…much of this from Jewish Old Testament.

Jesus is the Cornerstone of our faith.

John came to the empty tomb first, because he was a faster runner. Peter came behind him. However at the arrival of the tomb, John stopped, and out of deference to the headship given by Christ to Peter to begin His church, Peter entered the tomb first.

It took close to 400 years to develop the institution of the Church, just as it took the Jewish people many years to develop as a culture of God’s chosen people. Christ’s church is no different.

Greek was used today in international circles then as English is today. Many Latin words make inanimate objects feminine…it is important to consider the nuances of language as well as contexts used for those times.

 

[Teneas]

Wow, another thread on this so soon. Was only a month or so ago we had a looooooong thread about this same thing. Oh well, glad to see it talked about again.

 

[PJM]

=Cristian B;6484614]You know … what I find very interesting is that the other two authors of Mark and Luke didn’t put very much importance on what Jesus said, but rather on Peter’s declaration. Just something to think about … if Jesus was setting the ruler of the church there … then they should have wrote it because it’s very important, but looks like they considered Peter’s declaration important enough to write in in 3/4 Gospels, and Jesus ‘declaration’ on only 1/3.

Just something to think about.

***And why do you thinl this is?

It’s becasue it was a “no-brainer,” everyone involved knew and accepted the Primacy of Peter.***

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Cristian_B]

Then why, much longer after Samuel was written, did Isaiah write:

Just as Peter referred to Psalms when speaking of the need to ‘fulfill scriptures’ and fill the office of Judas, the Apostles understood Christ giving the keys to Peter, His prime minister, in His earthly absence. They understood Peter having the authority to bind and loose, or open and shut.

Isaiah was not referring to Peter.
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

~Revelation 3:7
You see the parallel here? Isaiah was speaking about Christ. And He said that He has the keys.

Do you consider this fair, or an honest discussion? Why not provide the scriptures you’re referring to, so that we can discuss the proper interpretation together? Am I to just assume you are correct without you even providing the passage you’re relying on?

Tell me something: is there a Christian upon whom the Holy Spirit wasn’t poured on (means descended)? Please answer.

 

[Cristian_B]

***And why do you thinl this is?

It’s becasue it was a “no-brainer,” everyone involved knew and accepted the Primacy of Peter.***

Love and prayers,

Pat

No actually. There are so many differences between the pope today and the bible Peter.

Also, when it was to be decided what to do, as far as I know, An Ecumenical Council was assembled at Jerusalem to decide on the questions which affect the believers. Who would have called together this Council if St. Peter had been pope? St. Peter. Well, nothing of this occurred. The apostle assisted at the Council as all the others did, yet it was not he who summed up, but James; and when the decrees were promulgated, it was in the name of the apostles, the elders, and the brethren (Acts 15). The apostles and elders met to consider this question. It does not say: the apostles and elders met peter and asked him to consider this question. Also, it is written: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia. All the elders and apostles reunited together and decided together. No supremacy of Peter recognized.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Isaiah was not referring to Peter.
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

~Revelation 3:7
You see the parallel here? Isaiah was speaking about Christ. And He said that He has the keys.

Did you bother reading Isaiah 22? The keeper of the keys, Eliacim, who replaced Sobna. Evidently, you dispute Christ’s words that He was giving the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter. The keys to the Davidic throne was a ‘custom’ or something ‘cultural’ that the Apostles understood. It was a type of our King giving the keys to the kingdom of Heaven to Peter.

Tell me something: is there a Christian upon whom the Holy Spirit wasn’t poured on (means descended)? Please answer.

It appears that you are deliberately avoiding providing the passage, I have asked you to provide so that we can discuss the interpretations together.

You said, ‘And the Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit is the substitute (or vicar) of Christ on the Earth while He is gone.’ This is not about the Holy Spirit descending on Christians. This is about an authority Christ chose and appointed. What scriptures do you use to make the statement that the Holy Spirit is the substitute (or vicar) of Christ?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No actually. There are so many differences between the pope today and the bible Peter.

Also, when it was to be decided what to do, as far as I know, An Ecumenical Council was assembled at Jerusalem to decide on the questions which affect the believers. Who would have called together this Council if St. Peter had been pope? St. Peter. Well, nothing of this occurred. The apostle assisted at the Council as all the others did, yet it was not he who summed up, but James; and when the decrees were promulgated, it was in the name of the apostles, the elders, and the brethren (Acts 15). The apostles and elders met to consider this question. It does not say: the apostles and elders met peter and asked him to consider this question. Also, it is written: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia. All the elders and apostles reunited together and decided together. No supremacy of Peter recognized.

According to your interpretation.

Peter rose up and spoke. Then all discussions ended and the bishop of Jerusalem affirmed what Peter had spoken.

**Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth **the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, who knoweth the hearts, gave testimony, giving unto them the Holy Ghost, as well as to us:
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore, why tempt you God to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Act 15:11 But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.
Act 15:12 And all the multitude held their peace: and they heard Barnabas and Paul telling what great signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying: Men, brethren, hear me.
Act 15:14 Simon hath related how God first visited to take to the Gentiles, a people to his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written:

 

[Cristian_B]

You said, ‘And the Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit is the substitute (or vicar) of Christ on the Earth while He is gone.’ This is not about the Holy Spirit descending on Christians. This is about an authority Christ chose and appointed. What scriptures do you use to make the statement that the Holy Spirit is the substitute (or vicar) of Christ?

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. ~John 14:16-17
Why another one? Because the one we have (Jesus) ascended to the Father.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee. There you shall see him, as he told you.

Luk 24:34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon.**

Act 1:15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty):
Act 1:16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:

Peter’s name always is first when listed with the Apostles.

**Mat 10:1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.
Mat 10:2 And the names of the twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother,
Mat 10:3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus,
Mat 10:4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mar 3:16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter:
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder.
Mar 3:18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus and Simon the Cananean:
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Luk 6:14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes,
Luk 6:16 And Jude the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus and Simon Zelotes and Jude the brother of James.**

Peter spoke for the Apostles

**Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mar 8:29 Then he saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Peter answering said to him: Thou art the Christ.

Luk 8:45 And Jesus said: Who is it that touched me? And all denying, Peter and they that were with him said: Master, the multitudes throng and press thee; and dost thou say, who touched me?

Luk 12:41 And Peter said to him: Lord, dost thou speak this parable to us, or likewise to all?

Joh 6:68 (6:69) And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.**

Peter’s name appears 195 times in the New Testament, more than all the other Apostles put together.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. ~John 14:16-17
Why another one? Because the one we have (Jesus) ascended to the Father.

Was Christ speaking to the multitude with that statement, or was those words ONLY spoke to the Apostles, He chose and appointed?

Read John 14 through 18 and tell me who all is present when Christ spoke those words. When other people show up in the story in chapter 18, it is those who went to arrest Christ.

Show me where Christ spoke those words to the multitudes?

You are not reading in context of who was spoken too. There are instructions to the authority He chose and appointed, and there are sermons where He spoke to the multitudes.

You are definately showing a bias in your interpretation, in my honest opinion. Read back through this thread and see detailed explanations, and then see where you fail to address very good points raised, to make excuses or ‘what ifs’, in an attempt to discredit what is really going on. You even went to the extent of ‘Well maybe Matthew didn’t write the Gospel’. ‘Well the other Gospel writers didn’t write it, so it must not be important’.

You are one who states the Bible is the ‘final authority’, why isn’t it even mentioned in scriptures if it’s important? ‘Well the other Gospel writers didn’t write about Peter, so it must not be important?’ Do you think people cannot see through the bias you’re displaying here?

 

[eucharisteo]

Hey!

Your preaching. You might want to slow down and leave it be. A well studied Christian would already know these things. For some it takes time. In fact, it sort of destroys their world when they finally realize they might not be correct so they go back to their drawing board or bag of tricks consisting of a list of prooftexts that affirm their position. Frankly, trying to reach them is like beating your head on a brick wall.:banghead:

It’s better to take one or a few scriptures at a time and discuss them in depth. It’s great you have the resources you’re using. But it’s probably falling upon deaf ears.

But it’s great to find people that want to defend the faith.

Happy Easter.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Peter’s Confession of Christ

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

In context and the language is in plain English thanks to the work of the protestant movement and scholarly work of teams versed in that that:

1. Peter gave a clear statement of FAITH that Jesus was the Son of the Living God
2. That Jsus said of that on THIS Rock I will build My church and note church is in small letters not with a capital letter, it was the act of faith that is the rock not the man who was just honored with a new name.
3. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose. It nowhere says this passes on to others or to a line of leaders.
4. No one was to tell anyone there that He was Christ by doing so later they broke the very command of Jesus in their later work.

I will just add to this two points. Nowhere else in the Gospels is this mentioned, was Jesus founding a church building, never did He openly appoint leaders or even issue any set rules for a clergy. Nowhere. The Father did in the OT very clearly for the Hebrew Priesthood but for His faithful He said nothing. And if He did it was not written down so might as well not be argued if its such an important point that there be one single faith then it would be noted. But nothing.

So I will make the case Peter was given a few honors at this point it was Faith and Faith Alone that is the Rock which is the Foundation of the faith we call Christianity.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

In context and the language is in plain English thanks to the work of the protestant movement and scholarly work of teams versed in that that:

1. Peter gave a clear statement of FAITH that Jesus was the Son of the Living God
2. That Jsus said of that on THIS Rock I will build My church and note church is in small letters not with a capital letter, it was the act of faith that is the rock not the man who was just honored with a new name.
3. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose. It nowhere says this passes on to others or to a line of leaders.
4. No one was to tell anyone there that He was Christ by doing so later they broke the very command of Jesus in their later work.

I will just add to this two points. Nowhere else in the Gospels is this mentioned, was Jesus founding a church building, never did He openly appoint leaders or even issue any set rules for a clergy. Nowhere. The Father did in the OT very clearly for the Hebrew Priesthood but for His faithful He said nothing. And if He did it was not written down so might as well not be argued if its such an important point that there be one single faith then it would be noted. But nothing.

So I will make the case Peter was given a few honors at this point it was Faith and Faith Alone that is the Rock which is the Foundation of the faith we call Christianity.

First, why would Protestant reformers have more insight than the early Church fathers?

If you check all scriptures, the Church is always spelled with a small ‘c’. It is a sign of respect for the established Church that Catholics use a captial ‘C’. If you note, on these forums, many Protestants do the same for ‘Word of God’, but scriptures do not.

Peter’s was an ‘office’, and the Apostles clearly viewed filling those offices as a fulfillment of scriptures.

**Act 1:16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:
Act 1:17 Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take. **

And again, the early Church fathers clearly disagree with you and those Protestants you mentioned above.

Next, did Jesus break one of His own commands? Of course not. Christ ordered them not to say anything, because His time had not yet come.

Would you care to comment on why scriptures do not, ANYWHERE, state they are the ‘sole’ or ‘final’ authority? Using the fact that only one author wrote about Christ announcing His Church, is pitting scriptures against scriptures and placing them in a position of some being wrong. Do you believe some scriptures are wrong and do not belong in the inspired word of God? Do you believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God?

Fact of the matter is, Matthew, one of the eyewitnesses to the ministry of Christ, wrote about it. Mark and Luke were not eyewitnesses themselves. They wrote according to the ‘oral tradition’. How else was Luke able to record a conversation between the angel of the Lord and Mary, the angel of the Lord and Joseph, conversations between Elizabeth and Mary, etc. etc. etc.

While John did not write about this particular event, he did write about Christ appearing to Peter and telling him to ‘feed His sheep/lambs’ three times. Which none of the other authors wrote about. Do we discount that too? It also supports Peter being singled out.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Many scriptures were used, with explanations and points raised, such as reading scriptures in context of who Christ was speaking to. Then it appears some quit posting.

 

[Stephen168]

Many scriptures were used, with explanations and points raised, such as reading scriptures in context of who Christ was speaking to. Then it appears some quit posting.

I think when a Protestant tries to change the meaning of Matthew 16:18 they are just throwing stones at the Catholic Church. It does nothing to provide Luther, Calvin, Joseph Smith, or your friendly neighborhood preacher is the leader of the church started by Christ. They do not have history on their side.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think we are in one of those cycles again of falling on deaf ears…

People just aren’t there yet. The flying Bible with wings down through the course of history, where it will land nobody knows…where did it come from? doesn’t matter…