urgent question: fasting before Eucharist

[Monica4316]

Just to clarify If I could eat lunch at 12 and then receive the Eucharist at the 7:30 pm Mass, and then have dinner at around 9, that would be alright. But I’m not sure that I could not eat anything at all before 9 pm, because like I said I don’t eat breakfast (no time in the morning lol). I can’t have an early lunch because I only get free time roughly around 12 and 1.

 

[5Loaves]

Just to clarify If I could eat lunch at 12 and then receive the Eucharist at the 7:30 pm Mass, and then have dinner at around 9, that would be alright. But I’m not sure that I could not eat anything at all before 9 pm, because like I said I don’t eat breakfast (no time in the morning lol). I can’t have an early lunch because I only get free time roughly around 12 and 1.

If you want to go ahead with what you suggest here “eat lunch at 12 and then receive the Eucharist at the 7:30 pm Mass, and then have dinner at around 9” go for it. Or again, try it only on certain days.

There is nothing “wrong” with following what you say you could do here, other than the missing main component. The issue is WHY.Just considering the number of hours you don’t eat before reception of Eucharist is the juridical approach which isn’t the objective for us.

As is emphasized in the Latin Church, fasting is part of the three part direction in Great Lent, the other being prayer and almsgiving/works of charity. All of this is for our benefit in helping restore us to our true selves and restore us into communion with the most Holy Trinity.

It sounds like in the years you were yourself part of that Russian Orthodox parish before you left Orthodoxy in college you and your family missed out on catechesis on the meaning and purpose of fasting from the Eastern perspective.

If you want to understand WHY you would fast, from our perspective, again, I encourage you to listen to the interview with Fr. Moses, also to some of the programs that come up under fasting on Ancient Faith Radio. I think Fr. Loya also covered aspects of fasting on Light of the East March 8, 2011 #337: “The Great Fast Continues”.

Do some reading. There is a great deal of excellent material available on WHY we fast. As I mentioned I really love Fr. Schmemann’s writings. Here’s one piece on the OCA site, another three of writings from my parish “…The least important (but most visible) aspect of this fasting is a change in the quantity and quality of food:…”

“The fast of Lent has no advantage to us unless it brings about our spiritual renewal. It is necessary while fasting to change our whole life and practice virtue.” St. John Chrysostom.

If it hasn’t already been said, we begin Great Lent singing “Let us begin the fast with joy! Let us prepare ourselves for spiritual efforts!” It is a joyful practice in a joyful time of preparation and anticipation, as are the other 3 major fasts in the Eastern liturgical year.

 

[josephdaniel29]

If you want to go ahead with what you suggest here “eat lunch at 12 and then receive the Eucharist at the 7:30 pm Mass, and then have dinner at around 9” go for it. Or again, try it only on certain days.

There is nothing “wrong” with following what you say you could do here, other than the missing main component. The issue is WHY.Just considering the number of hours you don’t eat before reception of Eucharist is the juridical approach which isn’t the objective for us.

As is emphasized in the Latin Church, fasting is part of the three part direction in Great Lent, the other being prayer and almsgiving/works of charity. All of this is for our benefit in helping restore us to our true selves and restore us into communion with the most Holy Trinity.

It sounds like in the years you were yourself part of that Russian Orthodox parish before you left Orthodoxy in college you and your family missed out on catechesis on the meaning and purpose of fasting from the Eastern perspective.

If you want to understand WHY you would fast, from our perspective, again, I encourage you to listen to the interview with Fr. Moses, also to some of the programs that come up under fasting on Ancient Faith Radio. I think Fr. Loya also covered aspects of fasting on Light of the East March 8, 2011 #337: “The Great Fast Continues”.

Do some reading. There is a great deal of excellent material available on WHY we fast. As I mentioned I really love Fr. Schmemann’s writings. Here’s one piece on the OCA site, another three of writings from my parish “…The least important (but most visible) aspect of this fasting is a change in the quantity and quality of food:…”

“The fast of Lent has no advantage to us unless it brings about our spiritual renewal. It is necessary while fasting to change our whole life and practice virtue.” St. John Chrysostom.

If it hasn’t already been said, we begin Great Lent singing “Let us begin the fast with joy! Let us prepare ourselves for spiritual efforts!” It is a joyful practice in a joyful time of preparation and anticipation, as are the other 3 major fasts in the Eastern liturgical year.

Once you truly understand the why, the when and how are really quite simple. Whereas if you don’t understand the why you risk everything from useless fasting to actual spiritual and physical damage.

 

[5Loaves]

Once you truly understand the why, the when and how are really quite simple. Whereas if you don’t understand the why you risk everything from useless fasting to actual spiritual and physical damage.

Which is why as we have already said here and/or in the other fasting thread by OP, and every other of the many fasting threads here, fasting ought to only be undertaken under the guidance of a qualified spiritual father…

 

[Monica4316]

I’m sure that I have much to learn about fasting, but I wouldn’t say that I completely don’t know ‘why’ we fast. The reason the time/hours is important to me is because I am used to the Latin approach, where it DOES matter. I thought the East has the same approach, but was stricter. Is there not a “minimum” requirement in the East? or not?

I don’t fast simply because I “have to”… I just wanted to know what the rule is so I fast in obedience to the Church and not however much I want to. I know it’s a good idea to ask a priest, I don’t have a Russian Catholic priest that I could ask.

To be honest, I disagree with the Eastern idea that because the Latin church quantifies everything, it doesn’t care about the “why”… the detail, rules, etc, has a pastoral reason, to guide the people. It doesn’t mean there’s no emphasis on the “why”.

God bless

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Monica’s a canonically Russian Catholic who participates exclusively in the Roman Rite since her translation from Orthodoxy.

She needs, really, to make the canonical change that she was mislead into believing she made at her reception into the Catholic church.

One does not need to change ritual Churches unless they feel a need to.

The Russian Catholics in the United States fall under the omophor of the Latin Bishops.

So my question is, do they follow Latin disciplines or Eastern Disciplines?

 

[Vico]

One does not need to change ritual Churches unless they feel a need to.

The Russian Catholics in the United States fall under the omophor of the Latin Bishops.

So my question is, do they follow Latin disciplines or Eastern Disciplines?

The sacramental disciplines are of the Church sui iuris. (Sui iuris means “of their own right”; the have their own laws.) In the Canon law, e.g., CCEO canon 27, defines the eastern ritual Churches, and by generalization the Latin Church is also a ritual Church (sui iuris).

The purpose of individual laws is to ensure the preservation of the ritual Churches and that the faithful ascribed to those churches receive the sacraments and formation according to it. A Catholic has the right to receive according to the prescriptions of their ascribed tradition. The presbyterate has the obligation to administer according to the canon laws.

For example, there are different laws in the churches for reception of the Holy Mysteries. Eucharist and Penance and Annointing of the Sick are not restrictive, but other Mysteries require permissions (including granting of faculties sometimes).

The canons make exceptions for those of mixed Catholic ritual Church in regard to fasting and holy days of obligation.

Some canons:

CCEO Canon 17 – The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescriptions of their own Church sui iuris, and to follow their own form of spiritual life consonant with the teaching of the Church.

CCEO Canon 38
Christian faithful of Eastern Churches even if committed to the care of a hierarch or pastor of another Church sui iuris, nevertheless remain enrolled in their own Church.

CCEO Canon 683 – Baptism must be be celebrated according the liturgical prescriptions of the Church sui iuris in which according to the norm of law the person to be baptized is to be enrolled.

CCEO Canon 696

1. All presbyters of the Eastern Churches can validly administer this sacrament either along with baptism or separately to all the Christian faithful of any Church sui iuris including the Latin Church.
2. The Christian faithful of Eastern Churches validly receive this sacrament also from presbyters of the Latin Church, according to the faculties with which these are endowed.
3. Any presbyter licitly administers this sacrament only to the Christian faithful of his own Church sui iuris; when it is a case of Christian faithful of other Churches sui iuris, he lawfully acts if they are his subjects, or those whom he lawfully baptizes in virtue of another title, or those who are in danger of death, and always with due regard for the agreements entered between the Churches sui iuris in this matter.

 

[Monica4316]

The sacramental disciplines are of the Church sui iuris. (Sui iuris means “of their own right”; the have their own laws.) In the Canon law, e.g., CCEO canon 27, defines the eastern ritual Churches, and by generalization the Latin Church is also a ritual Church (sui iuris).

The purpose of individual laws is to ensure the preservation of the ritual Churches and that the faithful ascribed to those churches receive the sacraments and formation according to it. A Catholic has the right to receive according to the prescriptions of their ascribed tradition. The presbyterate has the obligation to administer according to the canon laws.

For example, there are different laws in the churches for reception of the Holy Mysteries. Eucharist and Penance and Annointing of the Sick are not restrictive, but other Mysteries require permissions (including granting of faculties sometimes).

The canons make exceptions for those of mixed Catholic ritual Church in regard to fasting and holy days of obligation.

Some canons:

CCEO Canon 17 – The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescriptions of their own Church sui iuris, and to follow their own form of spiritual life consonant with the teaching of the Church.

CCEO Canon 38
Christian faithful of Eastern Churches even if committed to the care of a hierarch or pastor of another Church sui iuris, nevertheless remain enrolled in their own Church.

CCEO Canon 683 – Baptism must be be celebrated according the liturgical prescriptions of the Church sui iuris in which according to the norm of law the person to be baptized is to be enrolled.

CCEO Canon 696

1. All presbyters of the Eastern Churches can validly administer this sacrament either along with baptism or separately to all the Christian faithful of any Church sui iuris including the Latin Church.
2. The Christian faithful of Eastern Churches validly receive this sacrament also from presbyters of the Latin Church, according to the faculties with which these are endowed.
3. Any presbyter licitly administers this sacrament only to the Christian faithful of his own Church sui iuris; when it is a case of Christian faithful of other Churches sui iuris, he lawfully acts if they are his subjects, or those whom he lawfully baptizes in virtue of another title, or those who are in danger of death, and always with due regard for the agreements entered between the Churches sui iuris in this matter.

Hmm I have a question now…

I was Russian Orthodox and then became Catholic, I didn’t know I need to attend an Eastern rite Catholic church, and became Catholic at a Roman Catholic parish. I made a profession of faith, had my Confession and Communion.

Was my reception into the Church valid, though it was not in my Eastern sui iuris church?

 

[Monica4316]

Also… don’t get me wrong I really like the East too, but I’m kind of upset that I didn’t get to choose which church I wanted to be. My intention was to be Roman Catholic… but then it turned out I’m Eastern Catholic. I just wish I had a choice of some sort

again not saying anything against the East, - I love the Eastern liturgy and everything, - it’s just that my intention was to be Latin.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I’m sure that I have much to learn about fasting, but I wouldn’t say that I completely don’t know ‘why’ we fast. The reason the time/hours is important to me is because I am used to the Latin approach, where it DOES matter. I thought the East has the same approach, but was stricter. Is there not a “minimum” requirement in the East? or not?

I don’t fast simply because I “have to”… I just wanted to know what the rule is so I fast in obedience to the Church and not however much I want to. I know it’s a good idea to ask a priest, I don’t have a Russian Catholic priest that I could ask.

To be honest, I disagree with the Eastern idea that because the Latin church quantifies everything, it doesn’t care about the “why”… the detail, rules, etc, has a pastoral reason, to guide the people. It doesn’t mean there’s no emphasis on the “why”.

God bless

Well lets discuss then. Why do you fast?

 

[Hesychios]

Was my reception into the Church valid, though it was not in my Eastern sui iuris church?

Of course it was. It is painful to see someone so wrapped up in this artificial crises.

You were really received, and you are considered an Eastern Catholic. The Latin church priest received you on behalf of the respective EC church (whatever one that is).

These rules were put in place because there was poaching of eastern Christians in the past by Latin church missioners. The rules were intended to protect the EC from abuse. (Nevertheless, the Eastern Catholic churches of the Byzantine-Slavonic tradition are hurting, and their numbers are diminishing, in some places, especially in north America.)

But the rules don’t work. People like you (you are not alone) convert to Latin Christianity and it is just a game to keep counting Latin Catholics as Eastern Catholics, when they have no intention of practicing that way and have no intention of going back. So the Eastern Catholic churches seem destined to give up their membership in North America to the Latin church anyway, despite the records.

You are caught in a record-keeping technicality of little real worth, if it harms your spiritual progress it is doing the exact opposite of what the church intends for you.

You can change this ascription, so if it means that much to you I’d say go and do it. Just go to the rectory and insist your pastor fix this, and he will help you with the letters and whatever else that need be done.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hmm I have a question now…

I was Russian Orthodox and then became Catholic, I didn’t know I need to attend an Eastern rite Catholic church, and became Catholic at a Roman Catholic parish. I made a profession of faith, had my Confession and Communion.

Was my reception into the Church valid, though it was not in my Eastern sui iuris church?

Yes it was valid. You didn’t need to attend a Russian Catholic parish then and now. But canonical ascription is there as a formality, in instances as you are going to get Ordained (which being woman isn’t possible therefore not a worry). Thats the hard rule. While canon law is also saying that your children should be baptized in the Rite of your canonical ascription, its not uncommon where people who are attending a parish of another Rite will get the baptism there.

 

[ryanpwnzall]

Well first off JESUS IS A ******. He is super black, he severd coke with dre in L.A. you know that crack u bought? it was from jesus and his ****** friends tryin to ruin ur life. so **** jesus

 

[Monica4316]

Can we please get a mod here?

 

[Monica4316]

Thanks to Hesychios and Constantine for the replies. I’m glad it was valid. I do worry too much about this, and about other things as well. For example… am I even in the right church? Should I be Catholic or Orthodox? if Catholic, which rite should I be? how do I follow the fast? how do I balance Eastern Catholicism with the Latin devotions that I practice, or should I transfer rites to Roman Catholicism? ETC. I hope God would have mercy on me and guide me in all these questions.

 

[Vico]

Hmm I have a question now…

I was Russian Orthodox and then became Catholic, I didn’t know I need to attend an Eastern rite Catholic church, and became Catholic at a Roman Catholic parish. I made a profession of faith, had my Confession and Communion.

Was my reception into the Church valid, though it was not in my Eastern sui iuris church?

Beyond the Holy Mysteries of initiation, Matrimony and Holy Orders have some prescriptions that are different between ritual Churches (sui iuris).

Canon CCEO 35 shows that you are now an Eastern Catholic and therefore subject to the canon laws in CCEO and the particular laws for the Russian Catholic Catholic Church sui iuris (if that is in fact that is the closest to your former Orthodox ritual practice). If for some reason you want to be formally transfered to the Latin Church then you must request it. You could have requested an indult from the Apostolic See (a variance from the canons) at the time you were received into full communion instead.

CCEO Canon 35
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

 

[Aramis]

Hmm I have a question now…

I was Russian Orthodox and then became Catholic, I didn’t know I need to attend an Eastern rite Catholic church, and became Catholic at a Roman Catholic parish. I made a profession of faith, had my Confession and Communion.

Was my reception into the Church valid, though it was not in my Eastern sui iuris church?

You were received into the Russian Catholic Church at a Roman Catholic Parish. It’s valid. And it’s automatic by the law itself that you are enrolled in the Russian Church.

Many Roman priests are woefully ignorant of the CCEO. Even some canon lawyers are. That they didn’t look it up in advising you is a problem on their part.

You’ve indicated before you wished to be Roman when you converted, and still wish to be Roman in praxis. Just write the bishop and explain this, and ask for canonical transfer.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thanks to Hesychios and Constantine for the replies. I’m glad it was valid. I do worry too much about this, and about other things as well. For example… am I even in the right church? Should I be Catholic or Orthodox? if Catholic, which rite should I be? how do I follow the fast? how do I balance Eastern Catholicism with the Latin devotions that I practice, or should I transfer rites to Roman Catholicism? ETC. I hope God would have mercy on me and guide me in all these questions.

You do what God leads you to do. Your canonical membership shouldn’t be a hinder to practicing the right spirituality. So what if you follow Roman Catholic spirituality? God knows you are sincere. What is wrong is when a person says they are Roman Catholics just so they don’t have to follow stricter fasting disciplines. But since you are sincere, why would it be a sin when you are following what the Church teaches? Many Eastern Catholics who migrate go to Roman Catholic parishes and live lives as Roman Catholics. Many of them are even blissfully unaware of such canonical processes. It is the life they live now and they are sincere with it, and they are following the Church. Why should it be a sin?

You have to decide what you really want to do. Do you want to go back to your Eastern roots? Then go seek an Eastern parish. If you want to stay and live life as a Roman Catholic, then stay in your parish. You may want to change canonical enrollment for peace of mind, but you don’t have to wait for it to start living as a Roman Catholic.

 

[Aramis]

You have to decide what you really want to do. Do you want to go back to your Eastern roots? Then go seek an Eastern parish. If you want to stay and live life as a Roman Catholic, then stay in your parish. You may want to change canonical enrollment for peace of mind, but you don’t have to wait for it to start living as a Roman Catholic.

Actually, yes, she DOES have to wait for it to start living as a Roman. By canon law, she’s bound to the Russian Church’s fasts, holy days, and obligations; that ends when she canonically transfers elsewhere, or receives an indult from her bishop.

CCEO Canon 403 specified a duty to preserve one’s rite, even as it allows participation in the liturgies of another rite. It specifically permits liturgies, not praxis. Now, personal parishes usually also grant praxis, as well… but that’s by standing indult, not automatic, and not by the law itself.Canon 403

1. With due regard for the right and obligation to preserve everywhere their own rite, lay persons have the right to participate actively in the liturgical celebrations of any Church sui iuris whatsoever, according to the norms of the liturgical books.
2. If the necessity of the Church and genuine advantage so recommend, and when sacred ministers are lacking, certain functions of the sacred ministers may be committed to lay persons, according to the norms of law.

CCEO Canons 35 and 38 are even more clear…Canon 35
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible.
Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

Canon 38
Christian faithful of Eastern Churches even if committed to the care of a hierarch or pastor of another Church sui iuris, nevertheless remain enrolled in their own Church.

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).