urgent question: fasting before Eucharist

[ConstantineTG]

Actually, yes, she DOES have to wait for it to start living as a Roman. By canon law, she’s bound to the Russian Church’s fasts, holy days, and obligations; that ends when she canonically transfers elsewhere, or receives an indult from her bishop.

CCEO Canon 403 specified a duty to preserve one’s rite, even as it allows participation in the liturgies of another rite. It specifically permits liturgies, not praxis. Now, personal parishes usually also grant praxis, as well… but that’s by standing indult, not automatic, and not by the law itself.Canon 403

1. With due regard for the right and obligation to preserve everywhere their own rite, lay persons have the right to participate actively in the liturgical celebrations of any Church sui iuris whatsoever, according to the norms of the liturgical books.
2. If the necessity of the Church and genuine advantage so recommend, and when sacred ministers are lacking, certain functions of the sacred ministers may be committed to lay persons, according to the norms of law.

CCEO Canons 35 and 38 are even more clear…Canon 35
Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible.
Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

Canon 38
Christian faithful of Eastern Churches even if committed to the care of a hierarch or pastor of another Church sui iuris, nevertheless remain enrolled in their own Church.

Well, the advice a Bishop has given me says otherwise. In reality, how many people even know the Canons? Like I said, if they sincerely in their hearts follow a spiritual tradition of another Church, how can that be wrong? Living a spirituality is not like immigration that you have to wait for your residence papers before you can work and open a bank account in your new country.

In fact, isn’t it even a pre-requisite that before you file for a canonical transfer, you would have shown that you have lived the spiritual life of that Rite and are committed to that Rite? Like me, I should have been going to a Ukrainian parish for about 2 years and follow their practices and traditions before I apply. How can I achieve that if I would suspend myself from Ukrainian-Byzantine traditions until I transfer formally?

 

[Monica4316]

thanks for the replies everyone… i don’t know a Russian Catholic priest and I dont live near any Russian Catholic parish, but I emailed a priest for his advice… I also spoke to a Ukrainian Catholic priest today.

I have decided to try my best to follow the Eastern fast and go to an Eastern Catholic parish whenever I am able to on Sunday, - and I hope with time it would be clearer to me if God would want me to stay Russian Catholic or transfer to Roman Catholic. I will also continue going to Mass at the Roman Catholic church I attend - during weekdays and Sunday evenings. I talked to the priest about the confusion I feel trying to balance the two spiritualities… going to DL, also to Mass, praying the Rosary, but also not wanting to let go of some Eastern things like icons… he helped me understand that the Catholic Church is one and united, and that all these devotions are Catholic. I want to focus more on the unity of the Church, maybe that would help.

When I move back home after I’m done my studies in May, that would be a bit difficult because I won’t be able to go to the Ukrainian Catholic parish anymore… apparently there’s one in my area there too, but I don’t know if I’ll be able to get transportation there - I’ll have to see. In any case, there is no Russian Catholic parish where I live. At that point, I’ll start praying whether I should transfer rites, or continue being Eastern.

The priest also explained fasting to me and clarified about fasting before Communion, and also Lent… he gave me permission to eat the food that my family bought for me (which contains meat), as long as I don’t eat a lot of it, and whenever I buy food it should be Lent appropriate. So I’ll try that and see how it goes

The reason I want to wait and pray about switching rites, is because I would want to do this for the right reasons… I would only do that if I would feel that God wants me to. I don’t want to switch rites just to make it easier for me. I think that I’ll stay Eastern for now, - I’ll keep doing all the Latin devotions too and going to Mass, but also to DL on Sunday and keeping the fast.

God bless

 

[Vico]

Well, the advice a Bishop has given me says otherwise. In reality, how many people even know the Canons? Like I said, if they sincerely in their hearts follow a spiritual tradition of another Church, how can that be wrong? Living a spirituality is not like immigration that you have to wait for your residence papers before you can work and open a bank account in your new country.

In fact, isn’t it even a pre-requisite that before you file for a canonical transfer, you would have shown that you have lived the spiritual life of that Rite and are committed to that Rite? Like me, I should have been going to a Ukrainian parish for about 2 years and follow their practices and traditions before I apply. How can I achieve that if I would suspend myself from Ukrainian-Byzantine traditions until I transfer formally?

A Latin Catholic considering changing ritual churches attends the eastern parish but is still follows minimally the Latin fasting and holy days and sacramental discipline (because they are bound to them), until they are actually granted a transfer (or can do so because of marriage). One can always ask for official Latin Church approval to do something differently.

 

[Monica4316]

In my understanding, I am allowed to practice Roman Catholic devotions, go to Mass, etc, as long as I fulfill my Eastern obligations - fast, holy days, going to DL on Sunday when possible. It’s not like I have to cut out anything Roman Catholic out of my life… right? Can I just do both? because the Church is one… that’s one of the things i liked about the Catholic Church, that there are no divisions in it.

am I correct??

 

[Vico]

In my understanding, I am allowed to practice Roman Catholic devotions, go to Mass, etc, as long as I fulfill my Eastern obligations - fast, holy days, going to DL on Sunday when possible. It’s not like I have to cut out anything Roman Catholic out of my life… right? Can I just do both? because the Church is one… that’s one of the things i liked about the Catholic Church, that there are no divisions in it.

am I correct??

A Catholic is not a member at large, but due to membership in a ritual Church is part of the Universal Church.

Yes, your rights and obligations, and the validity and licitness of some of the Holy Mysteries, are based upon your ritual Church, not where you attend. A Catholic may receive the Holy Mysteries of Penance and Eucharist and participate in the Liturgy (Mass) at any Catholic Church. A Catholic is under the care of a bishop and (if available) a pastor of the same or different Church, depending upon the jurisdiction and also arrangments for case made by the various churches for the territory. Yet, there are some other things to be done, explained here:

Canons (CCEO for eastern Catholics, and CIC for Latin Catholics)

CCEO Canon 883

1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.
2. In families in which the parents are enrolled in different Churches sui iuris, it is permitted to observe the norms of one or the other Church, in regard to feast days and days of penance.

CCEO Canon 12

1. The Christian faithful are bound by an obligation in their own patterns of activity always to maintain communion with the Church.
2. They are to fulfill with great diligence the duties which they owe to the universal Church and to their own Church sui iuris.

CCEO Canon 17
The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescriptions of their own Church sui iuris, and to follow their own form of spiritual life consonant with the teaching of the Church.

CCEO Canon 403

1. With due regard for the right and obligation to preserve everywhere their own rite, lay persons have the right to participate actively in the liturgical celebrations of any Church sui iuris whatsoever, according to the norms of the liturgical books.

CCEO Canon 881

1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.

CCEO Canon 882
On the days of penance the Christian faithful are obliged to observe fast or abstinence in the manner established by the particular law of their Church sui iuris.

CCEO Canon 916

1. Through both domicile and quasi-domicile each person acquires his or her local hierarch and pastor of the Church sui iuris in which he or she is enrolled, unless other provision is made by common law.

Latin Church

CIC 107 §1.
Through both domicile and quasi-domicile, each person acquires his or her pastor and ordinary.

CIC 1247
On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass. Moreover, they are to abstain from those works and affairs which hinder the worship to be rendered to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s day, or the suitable relaxation of mind and body.

CIC 1250
The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.

CIC 1251
Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

H.H. Pope Leo XIII, in Orientalium Dignitas (1894) generalized the rules of Benedict XIV originally promulgated respecting the Greek Melkites:

“Any Latin rite missionary, whether of the secular or religious clergy, who induces with his advice or assistance any Eastern rite faithful to transfer to the Latin rite, will be deposed and excluded from his benefice in addition to the ipso facto suspension a divinis and other punishments that he will incur as imposed in the aforesaid Constitution Demandatam.”

Orientalium Ecclesiarum (1964)

 

[Monica4316]

thanks for the info…

there is something that I am still unclear about, it says that if I live outside of the territorial boundaries of the sui iuris church, I can adopt the fasts and feast days of where I am staying… there is no Russian Catholic church near me, so I thought I could practice my faith as a Roman Catholic.

However, I was told that I should attend another Eastern church, for example Ukrainian Catholic… but that is not my sui iuris church

that is the part I’m still unclear on

 

[ciero]

A Latin Catholic considering changing ritual churches attends the eastern parish but is still follows minimally the Latin fasting and holy days and sacramental discipline (because they are bound to them), until they are actually granted a transfer (or can do so because of marriage). One can always ask for official Latin Church approval to do something differently.

I have been told just the opposite of this by a number of bishops, both Latin & Byzantine…one does NOT need a transfer of Ritual church to FULLY participate in another Ritual church. Pick a church and CONSISTENTLY follow the discipline of that church. That is it…done.

 

[ConstantineTG]

A Latin Catholic considering changing ritual churches attends the eastern parish but is still follows minimally the Latin fasting and holy days and sacramental discipline (because they are bound to them), until they are actually granted a transfer (or can do so because of marriage). One can always ask for official Latin Church approval to do something differently.

But how can you truthfully say in your letter of petition that you have found the spirituality of the Church more advantageous for you if you haven’t immersed yourself in that spirituality?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have been told just the opposite of this by a number of bishops, both Latin & Byzantine…one does NOT need a transfer of Ritual church to FULLY participate in another Ritual church. Pick a church and CONSISTENTLY follow the discipline of that church. That is it…done.

Considering this is an Eastern forum, I’m quite surprised how overly legalistic this thread has become.

I agree with what you said. I used to think the opposite until my chat with our Bishop. And given that a number of Bishops told you the same thing, who are we lay people to say otherwise? Surely we can’t sin when a number of Bishops are already saying that.

 

[Aramis]

Well, the advice a Bishop has given me says otherwise. In reality, how many people even know the Canons? Like I said, if they sincerely in their hearts follow a spiritual tradition of another Church, how can that be wrong? Living a spirituality is not like immigration that you have to wait for your residence papers before you can work and open a bank account in your new country.

In fact, isn’t it even a pre-requisite that before you file for a canonical transfer, you would have shown that you have lived the spiritual life of that Rite and are committed to that Rite? Like me, I should have been going to a Ukrainian parish for about 2 years and follow their practices and traditions before I apply. How can I achieve that if I would suspend myself from Ukrainian-Byzantine traditions until I transfer formally?

You’re a Roman; the eastern code does not apply to you until you transfer, Con.

The bishop is extending economia. Note that the application to transfer effects the change of law for purposes of obligation (it’s in a canon I didn’t quote) unless the transfer is rejected.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You’re a Roman; the eastern code does not apply to you until you transfer, Con.

The bishop is extending economia. Note that the application to transfer effects the change of law for purposes of obligation (it’s in a canon I didn’t quote) unless the transfer is rejected.

The discussion between me and the Bishop started with my question about giving my infant son Communion. Because during Liturgy he asked me if my son was receiving at the time I came up to receive and my son was in my arms. So I asked him after Liturgy. Thats what he told me, the same as what ciero said. If one is to seriously live the life in the tradition of another Church, then that is fine. As long as one commits to it and seriously follows and lives that life.

 

[Aramis]

The discussion between me and the Bishop started with my question about giving my infant son Communion. Because during Liturgy he asked me if my son was receiving at the time I came up to receive and my son was in my arms. So I asked him after Liturgy. Thats what he told me, the same as what ciero said. If one is to seriously live the life in the tradition of another Church, then that is fine. As long as one commits to it and seriously follows and lives that life.

That is not what the canons require, however. The Ukrainian bishop is not YOUR proper canonical bishop until you apply to become Ukrainian Catholic, by the way.

In Monica’s case, she remains a Russian Catholic by the law until she applies to be Latin… but her proper bishop is most likely the local Roman, who may have assigned her canonical care elsewhere.

 

[ciero]

That is not what the canons require, however. The Ukrainian bishop is not YOUR proper canonical bishop until you apply to become Ukrainian Catholic, by the way.

In Monica’s case, she remains a Russian Catholic by the law until she applies to be Latin… but her proper bishop is most likely the local Roman, who may have assigned her canonical care elsewhere.

Aramis…your own bishop…H.G. Gerald is one of the bishops telling me this…as he told me there is an agreement between the Catholic bishops in this country…that any catholic can practice in another Ritual church as long as they consistently follow the rules of that church…and that they are free to do so forever if they choose. The reasoning for this is to keep change of Ritual church to a minimum and then only for those who actually require it, such as those for ordination.

You may want to check with Br. David about this, he did a bit of checking into it a while back when he and I had this discussion…he has since changed his mind…not sure if he spoke to the bishop…but he did find out from someone.

 

[BVM_1221]

hello,

in the Eastern Catholic rites… (such as Byzantine Catholic, Russian Greek Catholic, etc) - how many hours do you fast before Communion if you’re receiving Communion in the evening? (for example, at 7:30). For the morning, do you fast from the night before?

thanks!

Interestingly enough, I was at a retreat last week with some Eastern Catholic Monks, and learned a lot about Eastern Catholic “:rules”. For starters, they are guidelines, not rules. :tsktsk:

For example, in theory it would be nice to observe a fast from Midnight to receiving communion. Yup, even on Wednesday when the liturgy may be at 6:30 PM. But this is supposed to be tempered by Prudence. Our bodies are temples of the holy spirit, not to be damaged.

So in my case, at age 66, I was told to just do the best I could and observe the SPIRIT of the guidelines. For Wednesday, breakfast but no lunch. For sunday, no breakfast. MAYBE.

In other words, it was OK to feeel hungry, but NOT physically weak, or mentally impaired. If either condition resulted from fasting, I was to eat.

Hope this helps

 

[ConstantineTG]

Aramis…your own bishop…H.G. Gerald is one of the bishops telling me this…as he told me there is an agreement between the Catholic bishops in this country…that any catholic can practice in another Ritual church as long as they consistently follow the rules of that church…and that they are free to do so forever if they choose. The reasoning for this is to keep change of Ritual church to a minimum and then only for those who actually require it, such as those for ordination.

You may want to check with Br. David about this, he did a bit of checking into it a while back when he and I had this discussion…he has since changed his mind…not sure if he spoke to the bishop…but he did find out from someone.

Thanks ciero. I was going to point that out that they would rather keep the transfers at a minimum until it has become necessary as you pointed out. I highly doubt my bishop was misinformed on this matter. Eastern Bishops in North America face this situation everyday as many of their members switch to RC parishes and start following RC traditions and practices.

 

[Vico]

I have been told just the opposite of this by a number of bishops, both Latin & Byzantine…one does NOT need a transfer of Ritual church to FULLY participate in another Ritual church. Pick a church and CONSISTENTLY follow the discipline of that church. That is it…done.

The word fully has more than one meaning. To have all the rights and obligations and to receive the Holy Mysteries in all respects in the manner of a ritual church sui iuris requires that one be a member of it.

No person discussing this issue on the eastern forum in the last two years has been able to produce a writen reference to anything stating that the canons do not apply.

I recommend reading this current $17 book for an understanding of the issues:

Inter-Ecclesial Relations Between Eastern and Latin Catholics: A Canonical-Pastoral Handbook by Dimitri Salachas & Krzysztof Nitkiewicz, English Edition by George Dmitry Gallaro, 2009, 157 pp., ISBN 1-932208-23-2

The late Metropolitan Basil Myron Schott wrote in that book:

“It will be particularly useful to only to bishops, presbyters and deacons, but also to students of theology, parish collaborators, and lay faithful. It goes without saying that the two current codes continue to regulate interecclesial and inter-ritual relations, even though experience testifies to the fact that the often-followed praxis does not always corespond to the norm.”

 

[ciero]

The word fully has more than one meaning. To have all the rights and obligations and to receive the Holy Mysteries in all respects in the manner of a ritual church sui iuris requires that one be a member of it.

No person discussing this issue on the eastern forum in the last two years has been able to produce a writen reference to anything stating that the canons do not apply.

I recommend reading this current $17 book for an understanding of the issues:

Inter-Ecclesial Relations Between Eastern and Latin Catholics: A Canonical-Pastoral Handbook by Dimitri Salachas & Krzysztof Nitkiewicz, English Edition by George Dmitry Gallaro, 2009, 157 pp., ISBN 1-932208-23-2

The late Metropolitan Basil Myron Schott wrote in that book:

“It will be particularly useful to only to bishops, presbyters and deacons, but also to students of theology, parish collaborators, and lay faithful. It goes without saying that the two current codes continue to regulate interecclesial and inter-ritual relations, even though experience testifies to the fact that the often-followed praxis does not always corespond to the norm.”

Vico…I know your a stickler for rules, but I think I’ll stick with the info I have personally received from MANY bishops. And thanks for bringing up the book by H.G. Dimitri (Salachas) as he is one of the bishops I spoke to. Saw him in Athens last summer. His main point to me was yes there are rules and canons, but in reality people have to live in the church. Your not going to hell for observing the holy days and fasting traditions of another Ritual church…no way, no how! So go ahead and knock yourself out quoting all the canons ya like.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, I have spoken with my Bishop and I know that I am faithful to him. I won’t lose sleep at night over it, my conscience is clear.

I think I’ve shared all I can with this thread. I’m out.

 

[Vico]

thanks for the info…

there is something that I am still unclear about, it says that if I live outside of the territorial boundaries of the sui iuris church, I can adopt the fasts and feast days of where I am staying… there is no Russian Catholic church near me, so I thought I could practice my faith as a Roman Catholic.

However, I was told that I should attend another Eastern church, for example Ukrainian Catholic… but that is not my sui iuris church

that is the part I’m still unclear on

So you have the options for those things. You should receive the Holy Mysteries other than Eucharist and Penance using the Russian Catholic rites however so the Latin priest needs to know this to get faculties or any necessary delegation or permissions when necessary (such as for for Matrimony) from the Holy See (Congregation for Eastern Churches).

You brought up and intersting issue in that the other eastern churches are not your Church sui iuris either. So true, and the Russian Divine Liturgy recension is different than the Ukrainian and Byzantine. Also the chant is different.

I only know of three Russian Catholic parishes in the USA:

byzantinecatholic.org/
standrewelsegundo.org/
stmichaelruscath.org/

 

[5Loaves]

I only know of three Russian Catholic parishes in the USA:

byzantinecatholic.org/
standrewelsegundo.org/
stmichaelruscath.org/

There are* four* Russian Byzantine Catholic Churches in the US

See Find-A-Parish → By Church → Russian Greek-Catholic Church → United States → All Active.

See also Byzantine Catholic and other Eastern Catholic Churches: Byzantine-Russian.

We’ve been blest to have visits from parishioners from each of the other three Russian Greek Catholic parishes in the past year or so.