US bishop urges men to ‘step up’ and end crisis of masculinity

[Bruised_Reed]

The author of the piece is a Catholic university professor. He was addressing biological sexual differences, and not celibacy in the article. But even the unmarried remain men and women.

But are they made for the opposite sex if marriage is not their vocation? Sorry, I just think the paragraph leaves behind a whole lot of men.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I’m not sure quite what you are asking about.
My post was a response to the idea that masculinity, or the traits pertaining to a male, are merely subjective and dependent on the current culture, rather than having a real and enduring basis in our human nature. Culture helps form our attitudes, it is not the ultimate basis for what makes a man a man and a woman a woman,.

I was trying to point out that human beings are objective realities. One of those is that we are male and female, with all that entails.
I was not trying to make any case for fatherhood as the ultimate vocation over and above the single life. The bishop in the OP is not trying to exalt one way of life over others, but to awaken men to their calling as men. He correctly observes that our culture attacks this vocation. The emphasis of his talk might be on fatherhood, but I can’t imagine he is denigrating other states of life, or denigrating femininity.

Simply that indifference to human reality is not a good thing. If we deny what is unique and real about human beings, everyone suffers.
My point of view on this is heavily influenced by Theology of the Body by John Paul 2. TOB has a beautiful exposition of the fulfilled celibate life, and how the whole human being expresses this vocation, in fact it is “preferred” to marriage.

Nope. I’m not questioning the importance of fatherhood or it’s rank compared with celibacy. What rankles me is talking about fatherhood is it being portrayed as the ultimate image for a man when there is no “match” for me. I don’t need a father now so…???

It seems to affirm what has been my reality most of my life, that I was not made for man: my father was emotionally absent my entire life, no one (grandparents, uncles, others) filled the void in any way. And now as adult orphan, and a single woman I am alone. That was one of the first things that some people told me when my mom died: “you’re all alone.” I have to acknowledge that they were right even though I didn’t feel or think I was at the time because I had friends and I thought I had good connections with family. Turns out many of those connections were flimsy and largely dependent on my mom but that is another story.

I’m just saying that when some kind of “fatherhood” is a emphasized as trait of manliness, that when it doesn’t exclude certain men it certainly excludes some women. And to those who promote this ideal, I don’t think you have any idea of how far fetched this idea is.

I’ve considered this further and I think the image of masculinity that is being promoted is very one-dimensional and probably excludes gay men. It’s funny. If I was desperate enough to ask for help with something there are gay men that I would trust before men in my family. I don’t want to deal with the grudging help, or bizarre gossip that they (unwittingly) initiate. Nope, I think I would go to the gay couple who would help me with whatever, take me to lunch, and call later to make sure things were okay. I will tell you which I find more manly if it isn’t obvious.

 

[clem456]

But are they made for the opposite sex if marriage is not their vocation? Sorry, I just think the paragraph leaves behind a whole lot of men.

Nope. I’m not questioning the importance of fatherhood or it’s rank compared with celibacy. What rankles me is talking about fatherhood is it being portrayed as the ultimate image for a man when there is no “match” for me. I don’t need a father now so…???

He is not addressing our personal needs solely on in individual basis.

The human body “speaks” about the human being. Marriage is one expression of that.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM
Chapters 73 through 84.
These are the thumbnails:

GENERAL AUDIENCES: JOHN PAUL II’S THEOLOGY OF THE BODY
Pope John Paul II

1. Virginity or Celibacy for the Sake of the Kingdom
   In his General Audience of 10 March 1982, the Holy Father began a new series on virginity/celibacy for the kingdom of heaven, in furtherance of his catechesis on theology of the body. A vocation to celibacy is an anticipation of that eschatological state when men “neither marry nor are given in marriage.”

1. The Vocation to Continence in This Earthly Life
   In his General Audience of 17 March 1982, the Holy Father continued his talks on celibacy/virginity for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. This new ideal, though a departure from the Old Testament tradition of marriage, shed light on the theology of the body.

1. Continence for the Sake of the Kingdom Meant to Have Spiritual Fulfillment
   In his General Audience of 24 March 1982, the Holy Father continued his talks on celibacy/virginity for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. It is a charismatic sign that in heaven people will no longer marry, because God will be everything to everyone. Departure from the Old Testament tradition of marriage and procreation was effected especially by the example of Christ himself.

1. The Effective and Privileged Way of Continence
   In his General Audience of 31 March 1982, the Holy Father continued his talks on celibacy/virginity for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Marriage is not depreciated, but continence has an exceptional value, when chosen with a supernatural motive.

1. Superiority of Continence Does Not Devalue Marriage
   In his General Audience of 7 April 1982, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on theology of the body, addressing the superiority of continence. It is superior to marriage, not based not on any devaluation of sexuality or of the human body, but on the motive for which continence is chosen, viz., the kingdom of heaven.

1. Marriage and Continence Complement Each Other
   In his General Audience of 14 April 1982, the Holy Father continued his instruction on the relationship between marriage and continence. Those called to either state fulfill their calling in a spiritual paternity or maternity toward those in their care. And the nature of both is conjugal, being expressed in the total gift of oneself.

1. The Value of Continence Is Found in Love
   In his General Audience of 21 April 1982, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on Theology of the Body, with regard to the choice of virginity or celibacy. Continence for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven is the nuptial gift of self to Christ, the Spouse of the soul.

1. Celibacy Is a Particular Response to the Love of the Divine Spouse
   In his General Audience of 28 April 1982, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on Theology of the Body by further explaining continence for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven as the particular response of virginity/celibacy to the self-gift of the divine Spouse in the Paschal and Eucharistic Mystery.

1. Celibacy for the Kingdom Affirms Marriage
   In his General Audience of 5 May 1982, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on Theology of the Body, by concluding his considerations on Christ’s words recommending continence for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Renunciation of marriage for the sake of the Kingdom affirms the value of what is renounced, in the gift of self to God.

1. Voluntary Continence Derives From a Counsel, Not From a Command
   In his General Audience of 23 June 1982, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on Theology of the Body, by addressing St. Paul’s treatment of virginity and marriage. Consecrated virginity is a matter of counsel, not command, so that marriage is no sin, though voluntary virginity is better.

1. The Unmarried Person Is Anxious to Please the Lord
   In his General Audience of 30 June 1982, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on Theology of the Body, by examining St. Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 7, that one who marries does well, but one who chooses continence or virginity does better. Continence makes more room to be anxious for “the things of the Lord,” to please the Lord and work for the growth of His Church.

1. Everyone Has His Own Gift from God, Suited to His Vocation
   In his General Audience of 7 July 1982, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on Theology of the Body, by further examination of St. Paul’s statement that it is better to choose continence than to marry. While the gift of continence allows an undivided love for God, the grace of marriage is a true gift, suited to that state in life.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

He is not addressing our personal needs solely on in individual basis.

The human body “speaks” about the human being. Marriage is one expression of that.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM
Chapters 73 through 84.
These are the thumbnails:

I know I’m not articulating this well because I’ve said this different ways; if you haven’t read my other posts on this thread as I’m basically having the same conversation about the same thing coming at it from different angles. I’m not talking about personal needs either, at least not at this time in my life. I just used one tiny self-referential thing as an example so don’t make that the subject. What I’m saying I don’t get how orienting masculinity to marriage and fatherhood is going to actually do anything. I question that this approach is realistic and not something out of a fairytale.

 

[clem456]

I know I’m not articulating this well because I’ve said this different ways; if you haven’t read my other posts on this thread as I’m basically having the same conversation about the same thing coming at it from different angles. I’m not talking about personal needs either, at least not at this time in my life. I just used one tiny self-referential thing as an example so don’t make that the subject. What I’m saying I don’t get how orienting masculinity to marriage and fatherhood is going to actually do anything. I question that this approach is realistic and not something out of a fairytale.

Masculinity is oriented to fatherhood and marriage, and, it is also oriented to the celibate or “single” life. As with so many other things, we are not talking about either/or. It is both/and.
The bishop is speaking in the context he is speaking. He is not addressing the other context. Why are you putting words in his mouth? He is not denigrating the masculinity of single life.

As to that not being realistic, I could go on, but that 's why I referenced TOB, so you can read something with authority from the Church. I assure you, it all makes good sense.
What do you think of it?

 

[ARSpade]

And what does this mean to me as a single adult woman?

Maybe nothing. The church has spilled plenty of ink about women in recent decades. I assume there’s something for you in there.

Not everything must be about you. Or me, for that matter.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Maybe nothing. The church has spilled plenty of ink about women in recent decades. I assume there’s something for you in there.

Not everything must be about you. Or me, for that matter.

Didn’t read my other posts, did you?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Masculinity is oriented to fatherhood and marriage, and, it is also oriented to the celibate or “single” life. As with so many other things, we are not talking about either/or. It is both/and.
The bishop is speaking in the context he is speaking. He is not addressing the other context. Why are you putting words in his mouth? He is not denigrating the masculinity of single life.

As to that not being realistic, I could go on, but that 's why I referenced TOB, so you can read something with authority from the Church. I assure you, it all makes good sense.
What do you think of it?

I’ve been commenting on the paragraph JimG quoted as well as the video so I wasn’t putting words in his mouth but you replied to my posts where I was referring to paragraph from another source. I think the the paragraph speaks to a very tiny part of the message of video so I’m not going to discuss it further; it’s serving to distract from a more whole message in the video and letter. Yes, marriage and fatherhood serve a concrete examples of masculinity, but it really didn’t flesh out how this works for singles and celibates. That’s part of what I feel is missing.

I also detect a certain amount of preaching to the choir or the unfortunate end result of movements attracting the same people over and over. That’s why I think it’s a bit of a fairytale; I don’t see this reaching far into parishes or groups that don’t already have at least an informal group if not formal groups,like Cursillo or men’s bible study. I guess I’m trying to imagine how this would fly with male relatives or with men in the parishes I attend.

I will be waiting and watching for the fruits of this movement. It gets mucho points for not blaming feminism. And I do hope that the violence I mentioned earlier is brought out into the light. Honestly, some men will only listen to other men and I’ve mentioned this on these fora before, we need your voices.

 

[edwest2]

I am in my early 20’s and presumably the target demographic for this video. I am really tired of hearing shaming language like this directed at me and others like me. Why are men avoiding marriage and fatherhood now? It is quite simple really. The risks are higher and the rewards are less. Let us take a good hard look at the facts.

1. Being a father and a husband used to earn you respect. Now fathers are continually portrayed in the media as incompetent dolts.
2. The article acknowledges that 50% of all marriages end in divorce. What it does not mention is that 70% of all divorces are initiated by the woman. What happens to a man during a divorce? He loses 50% of all property and a sizable chunk of his future earnings.

He is unlikely to have custody of his children as the default position of the courts is to give it to the mother. She in turn does not have to prove that the child support is actually being spent on the children who will have little contact with their father.

1. Laws governing other aspects of relationships are also biased against men. The way domestic violence laws are written the United States, the predominant aggressor policies in many states ensure that ceteris paribus, only the male party will be arrested.
2. Men have no reproductive rights. Our only choices are celibacy or full responsibility for even nonconsensual sexual activity. Women have the ability to unilaterally abort the child, give it up for adoption, or use the state to extract child support from the father.

usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

1. Men are deemed rapists and batters who need to control their dangerous impulses via skewed statistics.

If society wants to exploit and demonize young men, we have no reason to support it. That is why so many men are going Galt.

One more thing. This video talks at length about the need for men to leaders and protectors. Who needs to be protected and led then? They would never deliver the complementary message to women, that would be sexist.

I see plenty of mothers and fathers in public. Just don’t allow the media portrayals of fake reality stop anyone from seeing normal family life as normal, Yes, the law is biased against men. It’s time to change that. Selling the abortion lie to women has backfired. It is getting harder and harder to get abortions and men should be responsible about sex. No more sleeping around or bragging about “I got laid!” as if that was a good thing.

The primary purpose of sex is babies, orgasms are secondary. Males and females are meant to form partnerships, not power struggles. There are plenty of women out there, and men, who think like radical feminists. There are others who know not all men or women think like that. Abolish “No-Fault Divorce” and bring back divorce for cause.

Best,
Ed

 

[starshiptrooper]

I see plenty of mothers and fathers in public. Just don’t allow the media portrayals of fake reality stop anyone from seeing normal family life as normal, Yes, the law is biased against men. It’s time to change that.

Until those laws are changed, there is no reason to go back. It is time for men to go their own way as the answer to the 60’s. I suspect we will not see any changes until gynoids are developed and male birth control becomes practical.

Selling the abortion lie to women has backfired. It is getting harder and harder to get abortions and men should be responsible about sex. No more sleeping around or bragging about “I got laid!” as if that was a good thing.

Women are the gatekeepers when it comes to sex. Men are merely adapting to the situation. Does that make it right? Of course not. However, you are focusing on the symptom and not the problem.

The primary purpose of sex is babies, orgasms are secondary.

If it did not feel good and create pair-bonding, I guarantee you that there would be fewer kids around.

Males and females are meant to form partnerships, not power struggles. There are plenty of women out there, and men, who think like radical feminists. There are others who know not all men or women think like that. Abolish “No-Fault Divorce” and bring back divorce for cause.

Agreed, but “romantic” relationships have turned into a power struggle in which women hold the upper hand. Until this state of affairs is fixed, many men of my generation will go our own way.

Best,
Ed

 

[ProVobis]

There are plenty of women out there, and men, who think like radical feminists.

Thanks for pointing that out. Throw out the feminist sympathizers among the minority male congregation and you have even fewer men in attendance.

 

[on_the_hill]

:coffeeread: My masculinity is not in crisis.

 

[Mongo]

I am in my early 20’s and presumably the target demographic for this video. I am really tired of hearing shaming language like this directed at me and others like me. Why are men avoiding marriage and fatherhood now? It is quite simple really. The risks are higher and the rewards are less. Let us take a good hard look at the facts.

1. Being a father and a husband used to earn you respect. Now fathers are continually portrayed in the media as incompetent dolts.
2. The article acknowledges that 50% of all marriages end in divorce. What it does not mention is that 70% of all divorces are initiated by the woman. What happens to a man during a divorce? He loses 50% of all property and a sizable chunk of his future earnings.

He is unlikely to have custody of his children as the default position of the courts is to give it to the mother. She in turn does not have to prove that the child support is actually being spent on the children who will have little contact with their father.

1. Laws governing other aspects of relationships are also biased against men. The way domestic violence laws are written the United States, the predominant aggressor policies in many states ensure that ceteris paribus, only the male party will be arrested.
2. Men have no reproductive rights. Our only choices are celibacy or full responsibility for even nonconsensual sexual activity. Women have the ability to unilaterally abort the child, give it up for adoption, or use the state to extract child support from the father.

usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

1. Men are deemed rapists and batters who need to control their dangerous impulses via skewed statistics.

If society wants to exploit and demonize young men, we have no reason to support it. That is why so many men are going Galt.

One more thing. This video talks at length about the need for men to leaders and protectors. Who needs to be protected and led then? They would never deliver the complementary message to women, that would be sexist.

I agree. The situation keeps getting worse, and in many ways the Church has contributed to it.

 

[philipl]

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/01/07/us-bishop-urges-men-to-end-crisis-of-masculinity/

so what the article seems to be saying is that to be a good father you must also be a Masculine man. I’ve watched a lot of fathers be more like mothers and that’s not good for the children. Fathers need to be men, not just male. That means doing manly things. Woodworking, camping, working on cars, knowing what the right tools are, drinking whiskey every once in a while, taking your kids to fish, and treating your wife right. I tell people all the time I can teach you how to have a great marriage. as a man, act like one act like one around your wife does mean you have to be a troglodyte. It just means when the trash needs to go out you take it out if there’s a bug you squash it.

 

[on_the_hill]

so what the article seems to be saying is that to be a good father you must also be a Masculine man. I’ve watched a lot of fathers be more like mothers and that’s not good for the children. Fathers need to be men, not just male. That means doing manly things. Woodworking, camping, working on cars, knowing what the right tools are, drinking whiskey every once in a while, taking your kids to fish, and treating your wife right. I tell people all the time I can teach you how to have a great marriage. as a man, act like one act like one around your wife does mean you have to be a troglodyte. It just means when the trash needs to go out you take it out if there’s a bug you squash it.

Well, I do like woodworking, and I have enjoyed camping but I’ve only taken my kids fishing once, and I don’t drink whiskey unless it’s in a whiskey sour, which I haven’t done for about 20 years.

Bugs and trash, well, part of being a good father is teaching your kids, even the girls, to deal with it so you don’t have to. “Come on, girls, it’s just a spider!”

“You’re not going to kill it, are you?!”

“Of course I’m going to kill it.”

“No! Just put out it outside!”

“Oy vey! Fine. There. It’s outside now, and first chance it gets it’s going to crawl back into your bedroom.”

 

[Darryl1958]

I am in my early 20’s and presumably the target demographic for this video. I am really tired of hearing shaming language like this directed at me and others like me. Why are men avoiding marriage and fatherhood now? It is quite simple really. The risks are higher and the rewards are less. Let us take a good hard look at the facts.

1. Being a father and a husband used to earn you respect. Now fathers are continually portrayed in the media as incompetent dolts.
2. The article acknowledges that 50% of all marriages end in divorce. What it does not mention is that 70% of all divorces are initiated by the woman. What happens to a man during a divorce? He loses 50% of all property and a sizable chunk of his future earnings.

He is unlikely to have custody of his children as the default position of the courts is to give it to the mother. She in turn does not have to prove that the child support is actually being spent on the children who will have little contact with their father.

1. Laws governing other aspects of relationships are also biased against men. The way domestic violence laws are written the United States, the predominant aggressor policies in many states ensure that ceteris paribus, only the male party will be arrested.
2. Men have no reproductive rights. Our only choices are celibacy or full responsibility for even nonconsensual sexual activity. Women have the ability to unilaterally abort the child, give it up for adoption, or use the state to extract child support from the father.

usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

1. Men are deemed rapists and batters who need to control their dangerous impulses via skewed statistics.

If society wants to exploit and demonize young men, we have no reason to support it. That is why so many men are going Galt.

One more thing. This video talks at length about the need for men to leaders and protectors. Who needs to be protected and led then? They would never deliver the complementary message to women, that would be sexist.

Your cynicism is accurate and well thought out and truthful, but the bottom line is that it is still cynicism.

In the end, the masculinity that you are being urged to engage into is not for the purpose of all women, but for the one woman and the one family that you are called to create with her.

The best things in life are rare, and the one woman you are looking for who will be a complement to your masculinity will be rare indeed. To know the man that you want to be, and to express it to the one woman that wants to be with that kind of man becomes possible when those goals are clearly expressed and laid out on the table from the very beginning.

Society may not have the kinds of values urged by the bishops. Most women may heap scorn on masculinity and dismiss it as ego. But in the end, nobody marries society or womankind in general, but one man, one woman, is still what marriage is all about.

That one woman does exist for you, and the message is delivered precisely to the kind of cyncism that has so many young men now believing that such a woman does not exist for them.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Your cynicism is accurate and well thought out and truthful, but the bottom line is that it is still cynicism.

I do not understand why that is a bad thing. Reality is reality and nothing is to be gained by wishful thinking.

In the end, the masculinity that you are being urged to engage into is not for the purpose of all women, but for the one woman and the one family that you are called to create with her.

What about me, my happiness, and my purposes? Society needs young men to prop it up. They need us to go fight their wars, pay their taxes, do the dangerous/dirty work that society needs to function, and be the scapegoat for the problems created by society. I refuse to play that role.

The best things in life are rare, and the one woman you are looking for who will be a complement to your masculinity will be rare indeed. To know the man that you want to be, and to express it to the one woman that wants to be with that kind of man becomes possible when those goals are clearly expressed and laid out on the table from the very beginning.

Society may not have the kinds of values urged by the bishops. Most women may heap scorn on masculinity and dismiss it as ego. But in the end, nobody marries society or womankind in general, but one man, one woman, is still what marriage is all about.

That one woman does exist for you, and the message is delivered precisely to the kind of cyncism that has so many young men now believing that such a woman does not exist for them.

Maybe there is the one unicorn out there. From where I stand, 99.9% of all women are like that. I see no reason to waste my time looking, when I can be improving myself for myself. Perhaps looking overseas is a better idea, but with globalization, even good countries like the Philippines are rapidly becoming just as bad as the West. I do not anticipate in significant changes until enough men walk away from this current situation and demand that our interests and rights be respected.

 

[Darryl1958]

I do not understand why that is a bad thing. Reality is reality and nothing is to be gained by wishful thinking.

‘Abandon all hope all ye who enter here’. Dante considered this to be a good description of the gates of hell, and it is also a good description of what is wrong with cynicism.

What about me, my happiness, and my purposes? Society needs young men to prop it up. They need us to go fight their wars, pay their taxes, do the dangerous/dirty work that society needs to function, and be the scapegoat for the problems created by society. I refuse to play that role

The Christian ideal of marriage has always been for a man to sacrifice himself totally to his one woman, his one flesh.
Indeed society does need men to step into their masculine roles. That is where a man’s happiness and his sense of purpose may be found.

.Maybe there is the one unicorn out there. From where I stand, 99.9% of all women are like that. I see no reason to waste my time looking, when I can be improving myself for myself. Perhaps looking overseas is a better idea, but with globalization, even good countries like the Philippines are rapidly becoming just as bad as the West. I do not anticipate in significant changes until enough men walk away from this current situation and demand that our interests and rights be respected.

I very much agree that it is a waste of time to go hunting for unicorns, and the best that you can do is to improve yourself, and become the kind of man that the woman of your dreams would adore.
That is what stepping into the masculine role is all about.

 

[starshiptrooper]

‘Abandon all hope all ye who enter here’. Dante considered this to be a good description of the gates of hell, and it is also a good description of what is wrong with cynicism.

I am not entirely hopeless about the future. The current system will collapse, until it does, “manning up” as Church, state, and society demands would only be propping it up. If I work against my own interests, I am committing suicide. Suicide not of the body, but of my mind and values.

The Christian ideal of marriage has always been for a man to sacrifice himself totally to his one woman, his one flesh.
Indeed society does need men to step into their masculine roles. That is where a man’s happiness and his sense of purpose may be found.

There are no women worth it though. There will be no happiness. A saying about pearls before swine comes to mind.

I very much agree that it is a waste of time to go hunting for unicorns, and the best that you can do is to improve yourself, and become the kind of man that the woman of your dreams would adore.
That is what stepping into the masculine role is all about.

You kinda missed my point. I will improve and develop myself. I am not doing it because it will make some woman happy. Besides, society does not allow men to have expectations for our women. If we do, we are entitled sexist pigs.

 

[signit]

so what the article seems to be saying is that to be a good father you must also be a Masculine man. I’ve watched a lot of fathers be more like mothers and that’s not good for the children. Fathers need to be men, not just male. That means doing manly things. Woodworking, camping, working on cars, knowing what the right tools are, drinking whiskey every once in a while, taking your kids to fish, and treating your wife right. I tell people all the time I can teach you how to have a great marriage. as a man, act like one act like one around your wife does mean you have to be a troglodyte. It just means when the trash needs to go out you take it out if there’s a bug you squash it.

Where I’d disagree is that I don’t think all those things are necessary to be a man or are necessarily “masculine.”

Camping, for example. My family never went camping and I never developed any interest in it. As an Army veteran, my father had no interest in sleeping outdoors by choice.

And we never drank whiskey (of course it’s fine if you drink a little “once in a while”). We had some around the house to give relatives but we never drank it ourselves.