US is‘worst’ imperialist: archbishop

[bones_IV]

Times of London

The Archbishop of Canterbury has said that the United States wields its power in a way that is worse than Britain during its imperial heyday.

Rowan Williams claimed that America’s attempt to intervene overseas by “clearing the decks” with a “quick burst of violent action” had led to “the worst of all worlds”.

In a wide-ranging interview with a British Muslim magazine, the Anglican leader linked criticism of the United States to one of his most pessimistic declarations about the state of western civilisation.

He said the crisis was caused not just by America’s actions but also by its misguided sense of its own mission. He poured scorn on the “chosen nation myth of America, meaning that what happens in America is very much at the heart of God’s purpose for humanity”.
…

Williams suggested American leadership had broken down: “We have only one global hegemonic power. It is not accumulating territory: it is trying to accumulate influence and control. That’s not working.”

He contrasted it unfavourably with how the British Empire governed India. “It is one thing to take over a territory and then pour energy and resources into administering it and normalising it. Rightly or wrongly, that’s what the British Empire did — in India, for example.
…
In the interview in Emel, a Muslim lifestyle magazine, Williams makes only mild criticisms of the Islamic world. He said the Muslim world must acknowledge that its “political solutions were not the most impressive”
Words of wisdom from the captain of a sinking ship as the waves rise up to engulf him. It's always guys like him whose families are falling apart that criticize those struggling, but still intact and successful, families.

 

[Servulus]

It’s unclear why this thread is in “Catholic News”. Isn’t the Archbishop of Canterbury an Anglican prelate?

 

[MugenOne]

The man has bowed down to his Islamist lord.

 

[manualman]

He DOES have one point. Amongst American evangelicals there IS a strange sort of ‘chosen people’ mentality about the USA. It is just assumed to be true in much of their theology, approach to mission, ministry and church culture. I think it unfair to spread it to ALL Americans, but because this is still a majority protestant nation and the attitude has been prevalent for a long time, it isn’t entirely unfair.

Claiming we are WORSE than the Brit empire is patent silliness, except in one sense. The Brits back then really didn’t much pretend to be doing it for the overall benefit of mankind. It was profit and everybody knew it. We sometimes make a lot of pretense about the total goodness of our involvement in foreign affairs. That’s just a difference between a democracy and a monarchy.

 

[Digitonomy]

The Brits back then really didn’t much pretend to be doing it for the overall benefit of mankind. It was profit and everybody knew it.

I disagree. Britain had some of the most principled and high-minded explorers, soldiers, etc through the years. While there were certainly many who were nothing but greedy merchants, the overall view throughout the culture was that they were serving their country - and that this was noble not simply because it’s proper to serve the king or queen, or that they were improving the economic condition of the kingdom, but because they were bringing the gift of civilization to ignorant savages. Being capitalists, they realized that exploiting these lands to some degree was a necessary means toward that goal. Doubtless the more educated were aware of a certain amount of hypocrisy in the ideals of the nation and its agents, just as we are - I’m sure the execs at Halliburton want the best for the Iraqi people, but even more they want to make a profit.

So I don’t buy the distinction you are trying to make, and therefore I can’t agree with the archbishop that the US is the worst imperialist nation. We at least intend to give back the country to the locals, unlike the British in most cases. Whether that’s because we are holding to higher ideals, or because true imperialism is no longer practical in the information age and the age of nationalism, our actions acquit us better than those of the British Empire of past centuries.

I think the archbishop is understandably trying to disassociate himself, the Anglican church, and Christians in general from the unpopular actions of the United States. If a little hyperbole does the trick, good for him. But his claim doesn’t bear close scrutiny.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

He who can does; he who can’t teaches; he who can’t teach criticizes. I guess the only thing the archbishop can do is criticize; his management and teaching aren’t accomplishing much.

 

[Muzhik]

I think the good Archbishop lost any “high moral ground” when he approved the ordination of women and the consecration of openly gay bishops. No wonder there are a growing number of Anglicans seeking full communion with the Roman church!

 

[pnewton]

I think the good Archbishop lost any “high moral ground” when he approved the ordination of women and the consecration of openly gay bishops. No wonder there are a growing number of Anglicans seeking full communion with the Roman church!

He would best spend his energies tending his own house.

 

[bones_IV]

The man has bowed down to his Islamist lord.

Amen to that. And, of course, the Muslims gladly welcomed this. Isn’t it something of a tradition for people whose organizations are falling apart to criticize US policy? Five hundred years of an empty see is long enough. Zzzzzzzz… Whoops! Who said what? Oh, never mind. Zzzzzzz. When your own product is lousy, what to do? Criticize the competition of course. This guy is such a lefty, loon I’m almost sorry that I wasted my time commenting on him. Maybe Williams ought to take a poll in Ireland to see how much the folks there appreciated Britains “pouring energy and resources” into their country. The Anglican Communion is a glass house, and its “bishops” have been throwing stones at each other for decades; now they’ve escalated to launching boulders over the issues of the day.

 

[katy]

The man has bowed down to his Islamist lord.

Sure looks like it, doesn’t it?

 

[joe_clark]

The archbishop’s opinion is that, his opinion. I do have to agree with the obvious. America is a ship off course and floundering. Today we as a nation are in an unstable position than we have been in a long time. The geopolitical world is changing and America can’t pound it into submission. We are seeing nations fighting over resources not fought over in the past. ie China/India. If you look at the world as a chess board, you will see the pieces moving strategically, positioning themselves closer to the resource. Recently in the news I saw that Russia and I think Norway sent submarines to the bottom of the Antartic to place flags on the bottom of the ocean floor claiming the land to drill for oil in the future. This is what we have become. Instead of helping each other in this world, we are going to fight over resources with the “only the strong survive” mentality. If your searching for a reason for the Iraq war, this is a good theory. We need to get back to where we once belong. Where nations respect us instead of loathing us.

 

[roymckenzie]

The archbishop’s opinion is that, his opinion. I do have to agree with the obvious. America is a ship off course and floundering. Today we as a nation are in an unstable position than we have been in a long time. The geopolitical world is changing and America can’t pound it into submission. We are seeing nations fighting over resources not fought over in the past. ie China/India. If you look at the world as a chess board, you will see the pieces moving strategically, positioning themselves closer to the resource. Recently in the news I saw that Russia and I think Norway sent submarines to the bottom of the Antartic to place flags on the bottom of the ocean floor claiming the land to drill for oil in the future. This is what we have become. Instead of helping each other in this world, we are going to fight over resources with the “only the strong survive” mentality. If your searching for a reason for the Iraq war, this is a good theory. We need to get back to where we once belong. Where nations respect us instead of loathing us.

Why is it that America is a ship off course? What course should we be on?

In my reading of history resources are what nations have always been fighting over. The United States of America is the only country I know of in history to fight for the freedom of other peoples then build it’s former enemies up to become strong economic powers. When in history have you seen as benevolent a country and people as the United States and it’s people?

Is it wrong for a country or people to look to better other nations and at the same time make it’s self a better nation?

As far as having the Islamic world respecting us I can only see 2 ways that that will happen. The first way I can see that the Islamic world will respect us is if we become Islamic. The second way I can see that the Islamic world will respect us is if we are strong enough to crush them and if we show that we have the will to do that.

After reading the posting of the Anglican clergy person I wonder why he would bow to a people that would prefer that he were converted or dead.

 

[joe_clark]

We shoukd be on a more straight course. One that is humble, one that is respectful, more honest and one that walks softly and carries a big stick. Never since the 1920’s have we started a war and then to find that we started a war on false pretenses. That would be lying. Then we rationalize and go with the “Saddam was a bad man anyway” There are our soldiers getting killed and maimed because Iraq was the goal before the President took office. Now we know The no-fly zone was working and there was no real reason to go and invade that country.Truth is now irrelevant. This is not the country we once knew. I love this country, but I also carried a draft card in the Nam era and I remember where, why and who. We should try not to get fooled again. People say that they don’t see American flags flying as much as they used to and I think it is because Americans are not proud of the direction this country is going in. I pray for the soldiers safe return. Negotiate as much as possible for war is a failure to negotiate. This is something our President has been lacking.

Helping other countries with food, shelter and clothing is a good thing. However when we arm other countries with weapons to kill each other, stand back and watch the sparks fly, it usually backfires on us. Ie: Saddam was our friend…Osama WAS our friend. We must take care who we associate ourselves with.

One should not fear the islamic world but seek to understand it. That doesn’t mean agree with them. Seeking to crush someone or something indicates fear. You only fear the unknown. This is where restraint and patience comes in. Let’s face reality. No matter what, this country will still be standing. The middle east is a pressure cooker that has been boiling over for centuries and it is foolhearty to believe that differences can be settled in a shorter amount of time. We can make a crater out of the middle east if we wanted to, but that would make us the people our parents warned us against. I would like to see us lead the way brokering peace. I believe in the end, it will work out. I have to. I pray for peace.

 

[Shoshana]

Helping other countries with food, shelter and clothing is a good thing. However when we arm other countries with weapons to kill each other, stand back and watch the sparks fly, it usually backfires on us. Ie: Saddam was our friend…Osama WAS our friend. We must take care who we associate ourselves with.

And we must not forget Pinochet, Contra, etc etc…people do not forget.

 

[roymckenzie]

We shoukd be on a more straight course. One that is humble, one that is respectful, more honest and one that walks softly and carries a big stick. Never since the 1920’s have we started a war and then to find that we started a war on false pretenses. That would be lying. Then we rationalize and go with the “Saddam was a bad man anyway” There are our soldiers getting killed and maimed because Iraq was the goal before the President took office. Now we know The no-fly zone was working and there was no real reason to go and invade that country.Truth is now irrelevant. This is not the country we once knew. I love this country, but I also carried a draft card in the Nam era and I remember where, why and who. We should try not to get fooled again. People say that they don’t see American flags flying as much as they used to and I think it is because Americans are not proud of the direction this country is going in. I pray for the soldiers safe return. Negotiate as much as possible for war is a failure to negotiate. This is something our President has been lacking.

Helping other countries with food, shelter and clothing is a good thing. However when we arm other countries with weapons to kill each other, stand back and watch the sparks fly, it usually backfires on us. Ie: Saddam was our friend…Osama WAS our friend. We must take care who we associate ourselves with.

One should not fear the islamic world but seek to understand it. That doesn’t mean agree with them. Seeking to crush someone or something indicates fear. You only fear the unknown. This is where restraint and patience comes in. Let’s face reality. No matter what, this country will still be standing. The middle east is a pressure cooker that has been boiling over for centuries and it is foolhearty to believe that differences can be settled in a shorter amount of time. We can make a crater out of the middle east if we wanted to, but that would make us the people our parents warned us against. I would like to see us lead the way brokering peace. I believe in the end, it will work out. I have to. I pray for peace.
I think this discussion is getting off topic but let me try to tackle some of the untruths found here.

• First untruth: the war was started under false pretenses this is untrue. The war was started when Saddam Husain invaded a sovereign country Kuwait. We did not completely destroy Iraq because they agreed to a number of conditions. Iraq did not live up to any of their agreements. We negotiated with Iraq and the world passed resolution after resolution which the Iraq government ignored. Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Iraq supported terrorism.
• Second untruth: the no-fly zone was working. The only way one can honestly say the no-fly zone was working is if acts of war ie… shooting at our planes every opportunity they had to shoot at them is having the no-fly zone working.
• Third untruth: George Bush had a goal of attacking Iraq before taking office. This is just calumny.
  I do not fear Islam but I think it is incompatible with reasonable discourse. It is in my estimation difficult to have discussion and negotiation with people of a faith that teaches: Sura 9:5 (“Slay the idolaters wherever you find them”) Sura 2:293 (“Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme…”) or Sura 8:39 (“Make war on them until idolatry chall cease and Allah’s religion shall reign supreme.”). Another one that makes me a little nervous is Sura 9:29 (“Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”)

 

[Shoshana]

Is it wrong for a country or people to look to better other nations and at the same time make it’s self a better nation?

As long as we do not fund so many dictators…when we were told by JP2 himself to stop!

 

[roymckenzie]

As long as we do not fund so many dictators…when we were told by JP2 himself to stop!

Cool, please give me and example, or a quote would be better.

 

[pnewton]

As long as we do not fund so many dictators…when we were told by JP2 himself to stop!

Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. We do not have a very good record in setting up dictators. Good point, Canada.

 

[Shoshana]

Cool, please give me and example, or a quote would be better.

I can only type quotes as i read this in a few books, one being on Pope John Pau2 in the book ‘The Man of the Century’ written by Jonathan Kwitny, a Jew. I do not know if this is against the rules.

 

[Muzhik]

I can only type quotes as i read this in a few books, one being on Pope John Pau2 in the book ‘The Man of the Century’ written by Jonathan Kwitny, a Jew. I do not know if this is against the rules.

It should be OK so long as you provide attribution, i.e., “Quote from PJ2”, quoted by So Andso, “This Great Book”.

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