US is‘worst’ imperialist: archbishop

[Shoshana]

John Paul II Calls for Peace in Iraqi Crisis

Pope Appeals for All-Out Effort to Avoid War

VATICAN CITY, FEB. 9, 2003 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II made two urgent appeals this weekend: for prayer and for a proclamation of the “gospel of peace.”

On Feb. 8, the Holy Father called for the “multiplication of efforts” in favor of peace, as “we cannot be hindered by acts of terrorism, or by the threats that are gathering on the horizon.”

zenit.org/article-6489?l=english

Vatican Isn’t the Only One Wary of War

Charges of Interference and Pacifism Don’t Hold Up

ROME, FEB. 15, 2003 (Zenit.org).- As the possibility of war in Iraq grows, the Church is also feeling the heat. The repeated pleas for peace issued by the Pope, members of the Roman Curia and assorted bishops’ conferences have been criticized by some observers as evidence of either unjustified interference, mere pacifism or not-so-subtle anti-Americanism. On closer examination, however, none of these charges holds water.
zenit.org/article-17336?l=english

"To Resort to Force Would Not Be Just," Vatican Says at U.N.

Archbishop Migliore Appeals for Support of Arms Inspectors

NEW YORK, FEB. 20, 2003 (Zenit.org).- The Vatican addressed the U.N. Security Council to affirm that “to resort to force would not be just” in eliminating the threat of weapons of mass destruction attributed to Iraq.

The Vatican believes that if the U.N. inspectors are given the support of the international community, this could lead to an “agreed and honorable resolution to the problem.”
zenit.org/article-6589?l=english

Unilateral War Would Be a “Crime Against Peace,” Says Archbishop

VATICAN CITY, FEB. 24, 2003 (Zenit.org).- A unilateral war against Iraq, without the approval of the U.N. Security Council, would be a “crime against peace,” says a Vatican official.

At a conference on peace held today in Rome, Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, Vatican secretary for relations with states, referred to Paragraph 4 of Article 2 of the U.N. Charter, which states that nations must not engage in war as a means to resolve international differences.
zenit.org/article-6623?l=english

War Would Be Unjustified, Says U.S. Bishop

Warns of Troubling Moral Precedents

WASHINGTON, D.C., FEB. 27, 2003 (Zenit.org).- The president of the U.S. bishops’ conference says it is hard to justify a war against Iraq, given the lack of clear evidence linking Baghdad to an imminent and grave attack or the Sept. 11 attacks.
zenit.org/article-6656?l=english

 

[joe_clark]

From the postings it looks like we are all having difficulty with the concept of war. I have heard many of the elder’s state that war is a failure to communicate. Sounds right to me. This has become a more complicated world today and if we are to survive, it will be through understanding, patience and love. This does not mean to let the world go to (H) in a hand basket or for America to not defend itself. Obviously war, “getting them before they get us” or suggesting in our administration, in a Department of Defense memo dated September 20, 2001 and I quote** “to deliberately select a NON AL QAEDA target like IRAQ.”** (See earlier posting) isn’t working well for us.

We need to get on the right path. The church and its people are struggling with this and the way is through dialogue.

 

[NReily]

I see a bunch of articles that have individual Bishops saying ‘they’ think the War is immoral, and not together as one, as the Church, and under the conditions of ex cathedra.

 

[john1863]

I see a bunch of articles that have individual Bishops saying ‘they’ think the War is immoral, and not together as one, as the Church, and under the conditions of ex cathedra.

Please define the underlined…there are several thoughts on this item.

John

 

[CHCatholic]

I see a bunch of articles that have individual Bishops saying ‘they’ think the War is immoral, and not together as one, as the Church, and under the conditions of ex cathedra.

Seeing the Church has only declared two things ex cathedra in recent times, that being the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I hardly thing She’s going to come out ex cathedra on the War in Iraq.

And while it may be true that those links Shosana posted are from individual Bishops, I find it frightening that you’ll snub off these Bishops as just individuals, when these men have been entrusted as descendants of the Apostles, yet you’ll follow Bush and your government, who time and again has proven himself to be nothing but a liar.

While it may be true that no bishop is perfect and he isn’t speaking ex cathedra, its still frightening that you’ll snub them off in favour of your own president, who, last time I checked, hasn’t received the graces of ordination.

I leave you with a quote of St. Ignatius of Loyola (A saint may I remind you, ergo he’s in heaven as we speak).

“We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”

 

[Shoshana]

From the postings it looks like we are all having difficulty with the concept of war. I have heard many of the elder’s state that war is a failure to communicate. Sounds right to me. This has become a more complicated world today and if we are to survive, it will be through understanding, patience and love. This does not mean to let the world go to (H) in a hand basket or for America to not defend itself. Obviously war, “getting them before they get us” or suggesting in our administration, in a Department of Defense memo dated September 20, 2001 and I quote** “to deliberately select a NON AL QAEDA target like IRAQ.”** (See earlier posting) isn’t working well for us.

We need to get on the right path. The church and its people are struggling with this and the way is through dialogue.

Thank you, this is the most humble statement i have ever heard,. I need to work on my communication skills…and it seems you were able to point out the obvious and remain charitable at the same time. God bless and thank you for your post and example!

 

[gilliam]

From the postings it looks like we are all having difficulty with the concept of war. I have heard many of the elder’s state that war is a failure to communicate. Sounds right to me. This has become a more complicated world today and if we are to survive, it will be through understanding, patience and love. This does not mean to let the world go to (H) in a hand basket or for America to not defend itself. Obviously war, “getting them before they get us” or suggesting in our administration, in a Department of Defense memo dated September 20, 2001 and I quote** “to deliberately select a NON AL QAEDA target like IRAQ.”** (See earlier posting) isn’t working well for us.

We need to get on the right path. The church and its people are struggling with this and the way is through dialogue.

Joe,
I don’t know why we really went into Iraq (other than what is in the Joint Resolution on Iraq that congress passed). But right now it is central to the WOT and central to our fight with al-Qaeda. Here is an interesting article that expands on my view on another thread, on the subject and maybe we can use it to return to the original topic:

Our Founding Fathers established the United States as a revolutionary experiment in human freedom. Even to this day, Americans who are well grounded in their history understand that America is a revolutionary nation still. What Americans have difficulty understanding is that the Iranian ruling elite believe they are a revolutionary nation as well. As a result, what we are seeing in Iraq, and increasingly in Afghanistan, are these two revolutions in direct competition.

If the American Revolution is successful in bringing liberty to Iraq and Afghanistan, the totalitarianism and extremism of the Iranian revolution will be blunted from its expansion. People in the area will have hope, the Iranian revolution will be contained, and it is my belief that the people of Iran–a proud people who throughout civilization have played a momentous role in human advancement–will no longer be condemned to live under a tyrannical regime, causing it to implode as the Soviet Union did.

If we reverse these prospects and yield to the calls for “changing course in Iraq”–which is nothing but a euphemism for “retreating in the face of an enemy”–the Iranian revolution will spread first to Iraq, and then with al-Qaeda’s assistance into Afghanistan. How we leave Iraq is how we will leave Afghanistan. If these events were to unfold and Iran successfully acquired a nuclear weapon, Iran would then try to destabilize Pakistan and depose the government of Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. I would point out that they already have nuclear weapons in Pakistan. And the prospect of a Taliban without the United States being able to assist a sovereign Pakistani government in protecting itself would be a nightmare the likes of which I hope we are all spared.

Read the rest

 

[NReily]

Seeing the Church has only declared two things ex cathedra in recent times, that being the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I hardly thing She’s going to come out ex cathedra on the War in Iraq.

And while it may be true that those links Shosana posted are from individual Bishops, I find it frightening that you’ll snub off these Bishops as just individuals, when these men have been entrusted as descendants of the Apostles, yet you’ll follow Bush and your government, who time and again has proven himself to be nothing but a liar.

While it may be true that no bishop is perfect and he isn’t speaking ex cathedra, its still frightening that you’ll snub them off in favour of your own president, who, last time I checked, hasn’t received the graces of ordination.

I leave you with a quote of St. Ignatius of Loyola (A saint may I remind you, ergo he’s in heaven as we speak).

“We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”

I’m not snubbing off the Bishops. To say I’m trivializing their apostolic succession is rather insulting. But the fact is not every word that leaves a Clergy member’s mouth is free for questioning, discernment, or even ridicule. James did it to Peter in the NT, the Early Church Fathers have done, St. Catherine of Siena did it.

Your quote is a desperate attempt, but fails to prove your point. My point is that one Bishops opinion does not make the Truth. The Holy Spirit does that with the Church as one. The Hierarchy of the Church has decided nothing together of the morality of the War in Iraq. Bishops have made their opinion but this is not across the board.

If the Church ever comes out with a consensus, then I’ll follow that consensus, until then I respectfully disagree considering the Pope himself says that their is valid differences in opinion on War.

Every politician has lied at some point.

 

[Al_Masetti]

It’s not our fault if the world enjoys a Big Mac or if they let me buy the world a Coke.

America represents the rise of “everyman” and the end of imperialism. The place where everyone can have a 401(k). The place where a female Laotian refugee can become valedictorian at West Point.

Where, although our government is a Republic, the notion of democracy is spreading like wildfire across the globe.

Where innovations like the baggie are embraced by the hill people of Thailand and by market shoppers in rural Costa Rica for carrying their food.

When I watch foreign television programs I enjoy watching the backgrounds, the views of the crowds, people on buses … and I get blown away at how many ordinary people everywhere are wearing blue jeans.

As far as I know the internet and the PC (personal computer) were American innovations.

If the good Archbishop of Canterbury is upset NOW, wait until sees what is coming up the pike over the NEXT 25 years.

There are innovations in medicine, communications, computers, materials, … and in so many other fields … coming up that his eyes will pop.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . As far as I know the internet and the PC (personal computer) were American innovations.
. .

The internet by Al Gore if I remember correctly.

 

[joe_clark]

Gilliam:

I believe “why” America is at this point in time and history is very important to the original topic simply because we can’t know where we are going until we know where we’ve been. In the human element, it helps us to learn and grow and hopefully not make the same mistakes. I agree that we cannot just cut and run and I don’t hear anyone on the hill actually advocating this.

What I do hear is they may go with the Biden plan. Separating the country into the three groups like the Confederacy with a neutral capital. Having an actual instead of virtual coalition by negotiating with Russia, Germany and France with the troop levels they provided in Gulf War 1, under the color of peacekeeping. For every 15,000 troops from each country, that brings home that many American soldiers to safe harbor. This takes the American Imperialist view from the terrorist. Helping them with the money from the oil, bringing bulldozers and heavy equipment so they may build schools, hospitals in their communities. Believing that when the terrorists try to recruit, the man will turn and say no thanks I rather build a home or a school for my family.

With regard to Iran, no one including America can force any country to continue to live in the Stone Age. If America goes in and invades Iran, this would destabilize the area to a point where Pakistan would raise their threat level. This would be throwing gasoline on a fire. We should stick with plan A where it hasn’t been attempted in good faith. In exchange for American scientists helping Iran crank out nuclear power for their country, the NRC gets to monitor indefinitely. I have heard the lame arguments that they won’t tell the truth ECT. This is where diplomacy comes in. They think we are going to bomb whether they are creating nuclear power or nukes, so with no negotiations per our President who thinks this is unnecessary, what option are you leaving anyone in this situation with? We need to give them a way out and save face at the same time. This is negotiating; this is the way and the way to peace, for we all know the way to war.

**My favorite quote is from President John F. Kennedy, but you need to see the entire quote to get it’s meaning.

“And so my fellow Americans…ask not what your country can do for you…ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world…ask not what America can do for you, but what together we can do for the Freedom of Man.”**

John never forgot that we are not an island. We can live alone and isolated, and in this way never in peace. We need to learn to live together. It’s like your in-laws that your not excited to see, but you put your best foot forward and get along.

Jesus said unto them, “Yet a little while is the light in you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.” John 12-35

PS. Shoshana, thanks for the compliment and may God Bless you. You know, we have all read your posts and you are one of the reasons why the dialogue has been so respectful.