US Jews protest Catholic document on salvation

[RobbyS]

You’re looking at this from a Christian point of view. Because Jews believe that they are God’s chosen people, they do not seek converts to Judaism the way Christians seek converts to Christianity. Mentality is different. Christians believe that it is their “job” to bring others to salvation thru Jesus. Jews believe that if God wanted to save the person, he would have put it in that person’s heart to become a Jew. All these “outreach” programs are always initiated by Christians.

History factors into all this , and long history. After the time of Alexander, Greeks and Jews lived together, and Jews, such as the ones in Alexandria become assimilated, in part, to Greek culture. So the Bible was translated in Greek, and many Greeks were attracted to the God of the Jews. Circumcision was a huge barrier to conversion, but many God-fearers still became fringe members of the Community, a community that, because it so welcomed life, that grew so much that it made up about a tenth of the Roman Empire. Jewish Nationalism grew apace the growing population, and gained a land base when the Macabees overthrew Greek rule. Misrule led to Roman takeover. The idea that the mysterious Messiah might be someone like King David led to considerable unrest. The Jewish Rebellion in the '60s, which had been preceded bydecades of unrest and rebellion, and not the only outbreak of Jewish patriotism. But after the Rebellion of the 130s, Jews turned away from political hopes and turned inward.That was reflected in the new movement we now call Orthodox Judaism,

 

[Middleman]

There comes a time when you need to politely say, “I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion and I hope that you will respect mine.” It’s no secret that Jesus is a stumbling block to many Jews today, just as He was 2000 years ago.

Well said.

I daresay, most evangelizing to Jews is probably to the non-religious, which seems to comprise of the majority of those claiming Jewish heritage. There seem to be very few God-fearing, observant Jews left.

 

[WillieWonka]

Well said.

I daresay, most evangelizing to Jews is probably to the non-religious, which seems to comprise of the majority of those claiming Jewish heritage. There seem to be very few God-fearing, observant Jews left.

I’d suggest there are proportionately just as few God-fearing, observant Christians.

 

[Middleman]

I’d suggest there are proportionately just as few God-fearing, observant Christians.

This thread was about evangelizing to Jews if I’m not mistaken.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

We don’t seek conversions because we don’t think that Christians are disadvantaged by being Christians.

But you (pl.) do think we are disadvantaged by being Christians. You (pl.) say we commit idolatry by performing the worship of latria with relation to JESUS and the Ruach.

Pax.

 

[johnXXIII]

I may disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it
an old American saying.
Do you really expect them to accept our document on salvation? It has been very helpful to discuss our differences, then to handle these with love and respect for each other.
Palistine and Isaerl have the same problems, discussion but no real agreement. Both sides experience the thinking of each other which is good; we don’t shot or call each other names. Some protestant denominations don’t fully agree either with the Catholic Church document on Salvation, but we still meet and discuss our simularities, not difference to much.
They have to protest because they are wrong; with discussions and prayers someday they may receive and accept the Holy Spirit

 

[johnXXIII]

You’re assuming that we think that there’s something for the individual to be ‘saved’ from in the first place - Judaism doesn’t ‘work’ like Christianity.

We don’t seek conversions because we don’t think that Christians are disadvantaged by being Christians.

Faith alone is their salvation; havennnnnnnnn’t I heard that some place before?
God Bless us one and all

 

[Kaninchen]

But you (pl.) do think we are disadvantaged by being Christians.

You (pl.) say we commit idolatry by performing the worship of latria with relation to JESUS and the Ruach.

Pax.

Perhaps you might reveal where you’re getting that from? What’s a ‘latria’ when it’s at home?

 

[Kaninchen]

Faith alone is their salvation; havennnnnnnnn’t I heard that some place before?
God Bless us one and all

That’s one of the best examples of entirely missing the point that I’ve come across for some time.

What part of:

You’re assuming that we think that there’s something for the individual to be ‘saved’ from in the first place

did you find difficult?

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Perhaps you might reveal where you’re getting that from? What’s a ‘latria’ when it’s at home?

The First Commandment:

You shall not have other gods besides me

In Catholic thought, since JESUS and the Ruach (Holy Ghost) are GOD as well, there is no Idolatry. In Jewish thought, GOD is not triune, but rather singular, so JESUS and the Ruach are not GOD.
In Catholic theology there are three types of worship. Latria is the highest form which can only be paid to GOD Himself alone.
Since in Jewish theology, GOD is singular, JESUS and the Ruach are not GOD, so to pay to them the same latria as to the Father would ammount to idolatry - having other gods.

Pax.

 

[Kaninchen]

In Catholic thought, since JESUS and the Ruach (Holy Ghost) are GOD as well, there is no Idolatry. In Jewish thought, GOD is not triune, but rather singular, so JESUS and the Ruach are not GOD.
In Catholic theology there are three types of worship. Latria is the highest form which can only be paid to GOD Himself alone.
Since in Jewish theology, GOD is singular, JESUS and the Ruach are not GOD, so to pay to them the same latria as to the Father would ammount to idolatry - having other gods.

Pax.

I would argue that it would be idolatry if I did it but not if you do - unless you actually worshiped the statues or something.

 

[WillieWonka]

This thread was about evangelizing to Jews if I’m not mistaken.

Yes. And it was the Christians who were doing the evangelizing if I’m not mistaken.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

I would argue that it would be idolatry if I did it but not if you do - unless you actually worshiped the statues or something.

So, let me get this straight. You’re saying that in Jewish theology, a gentile who worships anyone/anything other that GOD the Father is not sinning?

And what makes worshiping the statues different from worshipping the people (in Jewish thought, pertaining to gentiles)?

Of course, you know we as Catholics don’t actually worship the statues…

Pax.

 

[dzheremi]

How’s about we keep this thread to the subject of the protest against the Catholic document and away from differences in Jewish and Catholic theology? This doesn’t seem to be the correct thread for that, judging by the title and content of the first post.

 

[Kaninchen]

So, let me get this straight. You’re saying that in Jewish theology, a gentile who worships anyone/anything other that GOD the Father is not sinning?

What I’m saying that the conceptualization is different - all that apologetics about the trinity (that makes the tradition of the ‘body-mind’ problem in philosophy appear simplicity itself) is part of your conceptualization of God. You have to remember that we’re not as focused on the niceties of ‘correct’ belief as Christians - to you it’s one God.

Of course, you know we as Catholics don’t actually worship the statues…

Pax.

Obviously - though to anybody of a Southern European background the theater of it all sometimes makes you rub your eyes!

 

[JSSebastianoP]

What I’m saying that the conceptualization is different - all that apologetics about the trinity (that makes the tradition of the ‘body-mind’ problem in philosophy appear simplicity itself) is part of your conceptualization of God. You have to remember that we’re not as focused on the niceties of ‘correct’ belief as Christians - to you it’s one God.

Hmmm - it’s all so confusing to me (I guess because I really like rigidity and firmness) but I’ll take your word for it.

Obviously - though to anybody of a Southern European background the theater of it all sometimes makes you rub your eyes!

It’s true - I’ll be the first to admit it!

Pax.

 

[chosen_people]

The underlying basis for any dialog between two religions must be one of mutual respect. It should not be about recriminations. It should be looking for a better future despite a troubled past. It should not be about who is right and who is wrong. A dialog based on the premise that one party is somehow defective unless they accept the beliefs of the other party is not a dialog - it is a debate.

 

[Elizabeth502]

When the lay peoeple, on either side have gotten into an exchange over their faith, there have been some ugly confrontations.

When you have friendship, dialogue builds. Dialogue leads to trust. Trust leads to interest. Gradually interest may lead to conversion. Even if you do not convert the Rabbi, you may convert others who are watching the interaction. That’s the beauty of patience and gentle and persuasive rhetoric.

You obviously have very little exposure to the breadth & depth of Catholic lay dialogue with Jews, including some of us with extensive education in both Judaism and Catholicism, who have been opening doors and building bridges with the beauty of patience and with gentle and persuasive rhetoric, for much longer than you can apparently imagine. There are many ways to lead. Personal friendships – beyond the clerical kind – are one way; lay leadership positions are another way that has been proven fruitful in this particular arena. It’s not a closed club, sir.

 

[johnXXIII]

I expect them to protest, just keep on meeting and praying and talking together, some thing will come out of it. They know that is better than all of the killing our faiths have experienced. The average Catholic and Jewish person I know get along very well and do share a common faith and do go to each others services at times toshare togetherness and the same God. Its just the leaders that can’t get along.rolleyes: