US Nuns Facing Vatican Scrutiny [NYT]

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I think identifying garb may be OK but a habit is strictly out of the 15th century. Nuns don’t need that and it would not be a benefit, as far as I can see. I favor some type of identifier because the nuns in my neighborhood are here studying at a theological college and are often taken for lay students. Even worse, no lay female wants to be taken for a nun. Neither do nuns need convents, except for the retired religious, in my opinion. With the small numbers, of nuns convents are just wasteful and many now which were built earlier have serious design flaws and violate the fire codes. That’s the status of my parish’s convent…

In my experience, I have not heard really anything from nuns which does not follow Catholic teaching. A very few favor ordination of women.

My friend the missionary nun wears no habit and is quite conservative. She is a cancer survivor and before her third placement overseas to work with women in a developing nation she gave me a gift – a memorial book on the election of Barack Obama.

With all this, I consider nuns to be in self-managed religious orders, responsible to the pope. Basically they get to decide what they want to wear and what their ministry will involve. Its their business.
You need to get outside the city limits and visit some retreat centers. The Franciscan center in Frankfort, IL has a lovely chapel filled with Dream-Catchers just a few steps from the tabernacle. And these aren’t just decorative dream catchers. Native American spiritualism is a running theme. Of course they also do Reiki and such.

I’m curious, Beau - why wouldn’t a nun want to wear a habit?
 
I think identifying garb may be OK but a habit is strictly out of the 15th century. Nuns don’t need that and it would not be a benefit, as far as I can see. I favor some type of identifier because the nuns in my neighborhood are here studying at a theological college and are often taken for lay students. Even worse, no lay female wants to be taken for a nun. Neither do nuns need convents, except for the retired religious, in my opinion. With the small numbers, of nuns convents are just wasteful and many now which were built earlier have serious design flaws and violate the fire codes. That’s the status of my parish’s convent…

In my experience, I have not heard really anything from nuns which does not follow Catholic teaching. A very few favor ordination of women.

My friend the missionary nun wears no habit and is quite conservative. She is a cancer survivor and before her third placement overseas to work with women in a developing nation she gave me a gift – a memorial book on the election of Barack Obama.

With all this, I consider nuns to be in self-managed religious orders, responsible to the pope. Basically they get to decide what they want to wear and what their ministry will involve. Its their business.
With all due respect, since I was discerning a vocation to the religious life (not something that can be done easily in the US in mid-life unless a person is not an orthodox Catholic). I started realizing that what I had viewed as the “romanticism” of nuns in habits had more to do with other things (orthodox Catholic beliefs and love for Our Lord) than anything else. That usually, nuns not in some form of habit, did not have the zeal for Our Lord and want to evangelize by their obvious consecration to Him. I saw that those not wearing any form of habit (other than a pin) were all too often the same ones that went in for liturgical dance, women’s “ordination”, new age beliefs, whose websites talked of social and political justice but didn’t have a word on them about Him or even the Pope. Those were often the ones who easily accepted mid-life vocations in women, too.:rolleyes: Not to say that all nuns who wore habits were completely Catholic and hadn’t had any influences of new age, etc., however for the most part that is what I saw.
 
I am glad to hear this. I saw a ‘Catholic’ nun on PBS (Religion and Ethics Weekly) that was a raving leftist lesbian in street clothes with a butch hair-do. I see these types of nuns as well as gay priests all over California. My parents actually switched to another Catholic Church a bit further from their home because of the obviously gay priest. The new Church they attend is not any better except that the priest is not flaming (they are still leftist-environmentalist-humanists). The ‘Catholic’ university I attended was a den of Satan. At least I did find two Churches that were Catholic, but I no longer live near them. I feel bad typing this attack on my Church, but it is the truth. I don’t have any agenda and have never been to a SSPX mass (in case you notice that my handle is SSPXwannaB). I pray that our Church is saved, or I will have to leave it in order to save myself.
 
I am glad to hear this. I saw a ‘Catholic’ nun on PBS (Religion and Ethics Weekly) that was a raving leftist lesbian in street clothes with a butch hair-do. I see these types of nuns as well as gay priests all over California. My parents actually switched to another Catholic Church a bit further from their home because of the obviously gay priest. The new Church they attend is not any better except that the priest is not flaming (they are still leftist-environmentalist-humanists). The ‘Catholic’ university I attended was a den of Satan. At least I did find two Churches that were Catholic, but I no longer live near them. I feel bad typing this attack on my Church, but it is the truth. I don’t have any agenda and have never been to a SSPX mass (in case you notice that my handle is SSPXwannaB). I pray that our Church is saved, or I will have to leave it in order to save myself.
Wow and I thought it was crazy around here! Was reading on a Protestant blog–actually Anglican/Episcopal–where a former Catholic priest determined by direct and in-direct methods where 50% of current Catholic priesthood is comprised of gays however mostly celibate.
 
Wow and I thought it was crazy around here! Was reading on a Protestant blog–actually Anglican/Episcopal–where a former Catholic priest determined by direct and in-direct methods where 50% of current Catholic priesthood is comprised of gays however mostly celibate.
In other words he made the number up.
 
Nuns don’t need that and it would not be a benefit, as far as I can see.
Orders that subscribe to adherence of the habit are growing. If you are curious as to why that may be, maybe you should read a little about some of the saints, especially the great women religious of the Church. 🙂
 
In other words he made the number up.
Instead of making the number up, perhaps an educated guess. Until a Gallup poll is taken, we may never know for sure but assuming the percentage to be very high when considering gays make up 2-4% of the population. I’m making an observation at the moment and not a judgement statement, although I’ve been known to do that on occasion.
 
Instead of making the number up, perhaps an educated guess. Until a Gallup poll is taken, we may never know for sure but assuming the percentage to be very high when considering gays make up 2-4% of the population. I’m making an observation at the moment and not a judgement statement, although I’ve been known to do that on occasion.
I can only judge by personal expeperience having spent 4 years in the seminary and having amany many friends who are Priests. i would put the number in the 10% range-but like you that is just a guess on my part.
 
I can only judge by personal expeperience having spent 4 years in the seminary and having amany many friends who are Priests. i would put the number in the 10% range-but like you that is just a guess on my part.
George Weigel had some figures regarding this in his book, “The Courage to be Catholic”, which was primarily about the abuse scandal. I can’t remember specifically and I don’t have my copy of the book any longer (nor could I find these stats online) but it may be of interest.
 
What have you got against the 15th century?
A lot of nuns work as nurses. Now, in these days nurses don’t even wear caps anymore. A nun who is a nurse would be hampered by a traditional habit.

An identifier could be a cross, a brooch, a pin or a color of a garment. Trousers are not immodest.
 
With the small numbers, of nuns convents are just wasteful and many now which were built earlier have serious design flaws and violate the fire codes. That’s the status of my parish’s convent…
So, the prayers of cloistered nuns are of no value to the church in your opinion? I just want to be sure I understand your statement.
 
My university chaplain who is a Dominican once told me a story about how some nutty Dominican sisters a number of years ago invited his congregation of brothers to a mass where the Priest they invited was supposed to talk about how the US needed to pay off the debt for the rest of the world. None of them wanted to go, but they decided to be polite so they went. The priest the nuns invited them decided to use the homily to tell the nuns why world debt cancelling was a dumb idea:p

I hope this investigation sheds some light on the problems that are visible in Women’s Religious Orders here. I do think it is a good idea that the investigation is being led by a nun from the sound of the article.
 
So, the prayers of cloistered nuns are of no value to the church in your opinion? I just want to be sure I understand your statement.
Well, since I said nothing like that I don’t have to defend that position.
 
If a nun, any nun, is living a good holy life, and is fully in line with the Magisterium, then they have nothing to fear.

Now - if they are promoting lesbian life style, not going to Mass, shipping girls to abortions, worshiping some strange “earth mother” weirdness, then they should be very concerned. And I hope the Vatican can find some way to totally distance the Church from them in any and every way possible.
Very true. The Vatican could use the Sisters at our parish as a excellent example of how an order should be ran.
 
It’s unfortunate that some nuns have reacted negatively. However, possibly communication from the V could have been improved as well.

Here’ s my perspective, as one who was deeply and positively influenced while in school, by nuns in community – active, intelligent, intellectual, courageous, self-giving nuns. The order – like other orders of their time – was effective for two reasons: life in community was a built-in support system which lightened indiviidual loads; and the entire order had a single focus: teaching.

Living in community was spiritually invigorating and comforting: that’s from their lips. Because numbers decreased in many orders, the physical facilities closed as well, resulting in smaller clusters, the dilution of mission among those who remained (branching out into additional and sometimes too-broad missions), and eventually resulting in living alone & isolated, with occasional coming together in community – much too occasionally.

I do support the realistic need for all people, including nuns and priests, to follow an appropriate personal occupation, not just a vocation. Thus, I do not disagree with Sondra Schneiders that a witness in academia is just as important as other roles. And if you can’t teach or hate teaching, you shouldn’t teach. Same for social work; same for medicine. That’s why orders used to specialize and should specialize again. Each active order should have a specialized mission, limit itself to that, combine in numbers and benefit from living in community. It means that there will be fewer houses, whereas now you can often settle or resettle in a neighborhood near you once your formation is complete. But when you do that, your witness is diluted, esp. if you are not wearing a habit. The public preivously did not just identify a particular nun; they identified a whole Order. The Sisters of ________ meant something to the surrounding area and often nationally as well.

I see nothing un-21st century about this. In fact, it certainly makes more sense environmentally & economically. The absurd situation of any sister trying to “make it on her own” with subsistence pay does not work well. Frankly, many of them have to take side jobs to make ends meet and are often depressed and filled with anxiety about their mere survival. Tell me that doesn’t get in the way of their mission. Anyone who has experienced both living alone and living in a family (or with a roommate) understands immediately how much more expensive it is to live alone. I have heard some complaints from modern nuns about conflicts over lifestyles and personalities: well in that case, you don’t belong in religious life, because that is an essential element (priests as well, even diocesan ones): living in community.

It would take a saint to be truly effective and to keep one’s morale high while living a self-sacrificial life & materially-derived life outside of a community. And how many great saints lived alone? Some, but not a whole heck of a lot. Some founded communities; some were from existing communities, but the vast majority did not live alone.

So Orders, name your mission, singular, and attract others & confirm others who share that mission because they have discerned that mission fits their talents & secondary calling (K-12 teaching, higher academia, medicine, or the some phase of social work that you have a special witness for **and which is not being filled by any lay group or groups. **) There is way too much duplication of social work between religious and non-religious, and most of that social work is being done by individual religious in isolation, which seriously diminishes its effectiveness and its witness.

Choose a limited number of consolidated communities. If there are “lifestyle” or age issues, you can compartmentalize within those communities if necessary.

And I would hope that current or prospective religious would also have an eye to what the nation and world needs, not just what they as individuals need, in forming or reforming a mission. There are hundreds of sisters in my area, for example, doing individual social work in an area overrun by willing lay social workers, but that same area is in far greater need of Catholic school teachers & principals who can impart & witness to a true spirituality. It’s difficult for me to believe that there are not enough excellent teachers among those sisters who are young enough, capable enough, talented enough to staff at least 3 already existing schools. And the problem with poor catechesis in the Church? This should be addresed with a combined effort of priests and sisters in their existing geographical locations. They should oversee catechesis and contribute directly to it.

I regret that the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction of what Religious originally were: answering to a call beyond themselves. The language of too many of them in my area focuses on self-fulfillment as the priority – which also frankly is additionally a result of no longer living in community, but living in isolation.

If I were an active religious traditionally oriented, I would be looking to Rome to help streamline and fund my (our!) mission as an Order, so that I could more successfully answer my calling. That could be a valuable outcome of a Vatican visit. And from Rome’s perspective, from a strictly dollar viewpoint, I think it has every right to question roles and living styles in order to know what it might be helping to fund, let alone what is going on there in the name of Catholicism. If anything, perhaps Orders should have been saying (if they haven’t yet), look Rome, this is what we need to complete our mission. If individual sisters or Orders do not want to be in communion with Rome, and/or abhor transparency, then they cannot expect moral, practical, and economic support either. It’s the same way individual secular businesses work.
 
The non-cloistered nuns in this part of the country (Iowa) are stark raving radicals. They are frequently in the news championing for illegal immigrants or being arrested at US military bases in protest of our Government and especially when those evil Republicans were running the show. On the upside, I appears their median age is about 70. There are several mother houses for these orders here and I know a few traditional sisters who still wear the full habit. They must go through daily hell and ridicule from many of their sisters for not conforming to the “new thing”.

A Franciscan retreat center near hear offers a full plethora of new age, non-Christian nonsense including Solstice services, labyrinths, and wiccanish things.

A chaplain for the Sinsinawa Dominicans frequently opines on how the Church needs to embrace the culture and of course he vehemently disagrees with the Catholic Church on her stand on an all male priesthood. I’m sure they would fire him if didn’t toe the dissenting line.
Well, I’m from Iowa too; my only real experience with religious sisters has been positive. I see a couple of them in full habit at daily Mass. Is the disrespect about their age really necessary? These two **are **up there a bit in years, but they’re good people, certainly not “raving radicals”.
 
So just what exactly has Sister Jackie done that is going to get her locked away???
I second that question. Polaris’ post about Sister Jackie didn’t mention anything heterodox…and she even wore a habit. 🤷
 
A lot of nuns work as nurses. Now, in these days nurses don’t even wear caps anymore. ** A nun who is a nurse would be hampered by a traditional habit.**

An identifier could be a cross, a brooch, a pin or a color of a garment. Trousers are not immodest.
What habits do you think the Vatican would require? You may have watched too many episodes of The Flying Nun. 😛

Are you thinking these habits would get in the way somehow??

 
I think most of you are WAY on the wrong track about this.

This has NOTHING to do with habits or Sister Jackie who smiled too much and EVERYTHING to do with the kind of spectacular nonsense documented in the book “Ungodly Rage” by Donna Steichen.

This book clearly chronicles the way in which large numbers of radical catholic women (including no small number of religious) who actually abandoned catholic beliefs, went over to overt paganism and have been trying to essentially steal catholic facilities and institutions and redefine catholic words and practices into something that conforms with their pagan beliefs.

I’m not just talking about a tame yoga class here and it goes well beyond the Enneagram fad. This is outright rejection of a personal God, and belief in an all encompassing goddess. The author spent several years going to conferences and getting deeply involved in numerous organizations like this that all had sponsorship and membership from religious orders. It’s a shocking book. Betcha a nickel a copy found it’s way to the Vatican.
 
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