US Nuns Facing Vatican Scrutiny [NYT]

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A lot of nuns work as nurses. Now, in these days nurses don’t even wear caps anymore. A nun who is a nurse would be hampered by a traditional habit.

An identifier could be a cross, a brooch, a pin or a color of a garment. Trousers are not immodest.
I’m not an expert…but I think a sister who is a nurse would wear scrubs at work, then if she wore a habit, then she could wear it when she wasn’t working.

My DH went to graduate school with a very good priest who wore regular clothing…It took a few times of interacting before my DH realized he was a priest. Whenever I’ve seen him, he was in clericals.
 
Are you thinking these habits would get in the way somehow??

http://www.miamiarchdiocese.org/Atimo_s/news/img_sctjmvows_04.jpg
I’m not an expert…but I think a sister who is a nurse would wear scrubs at work, then if she wore a habit, then she could wear it when she wasn’t working.
One mustn’t attempt to inject clarity into an argument lacking that very quality. It prevents the issue from just going round and round without resolution.

😃

– Mark L. Chance.
 
My experience with nuns in the diocese of Rockville centre has been awful. Every time I heard a nun speak or teach on a subject it was always to pick, point and prod at some traditional belief or practice as being negative or not the only way. I never once heard an argument or teaching in favor of tradition. Never. They show great entusiasm for dissent. I hope it’s different in other dioceses.
 
I’m not an expert…but I think a sister who is a nurse would wear scrubs at work, then if she wore a habit, then she could wear it when she wasn’t working.
I can remember Sisters of Charity (like in ‘Doubt’) who could be identified as nurses only because their habits were white instead of black.
 
Yes,I had just started teaching in this newly opened catholic (small c) high school and the two orders of sisters connected to the school were in their habits and doing fine…but then an agent of satan started an attack and the poor things changed out of their habits and were convinced that maybe they are the church and can do just as well,even better on the outside…over the wall…remember that flick! It was sad,crucifixs came down from the classrooms,the sisters never went thru natual teen grooming and thus looked rather weird…putting on lipstick and well,just weird…one sister took off in the middle of the nite and later got married etc etc…the famous story of the nun who sang that hit song in french,she left her order,turned to drugs and died an early death…quite sad when they can be brainwashed so easily…intense investigation of the seminaries are also in order…the evil ones who posed as priests and who…well thats another issue…lets see what happens.satans tail is wagging in anticipation !
 
Living in community was spiritually invigorating and comforting: that’s from their lips. Because numbers decreased in many orders, the physical facilities closed as well, resulting in smaller clusters, the dilution of mission among those who remained (branching out into additional and sometimes too-broad missions), and eventually resulting in living alone & isolated, with occasional coming together in community – much too occasionally.

I do support the realistic need for all people, including nuns and priests, to follow an appropriate personal occupation, not just a vocation. Thus, I do not disagree with Sondra Schneiders that a witness in academia is just as important as other roles. And if you can’t teach or hate teaching, you shouldn’t teach. Same for social work; same for medicine. That’s why orders used to specialize and should specialize again. Each active order should have a specialized mission, limit itself to that, combine in numbers and benefit from living in community. It means that there will be fewer houses, whereas now you can often settle or resettle in a neighborhood near you once your formation is complete. But when you do that, your witness is diluted, esp. if you are not wearing a habit. The public preivously did not just identify a particular nun; they identified a whole Order. The Sisters of ________ meant something to the surrounding area and often nationally as well.

I see nothing un-21st century about this. In fact, it certainly makes more sense environmentally & economically. The absurd situation of any sister trying to “make it on her own” with subsistence pay does not work well. Frankly, many of them have to take side jobs to make ends meet and are often depressed and filled with anxiety about their mere survival. Tell me that doesn’t get in the way of their mission. Anyone who has experienced both living alone and living in a family (or with a roommate) understands immediately how much more expensive it is to live alone. I have heard some complaints from modern nuns about conflicts over lifestyles and personalities: well in that case, you don’t belong in religious life, because that is an essential element (priests as well, even diocesan ones): living in community.

It would take a saint to be truly effective and to keep one’s morale high while living a self-sacrificial life & materially-derived life outside of a community. And how many great saints lived alone? Some, but not a whole heck of a lot. Some founded communities; some were from existing communities, but the vast majority did not live alone.

So Orders, name your mission, singular, and attract others & confirm others who share that mission because they have discerned that mission fits their talents & secondary calling (K-12 teaching, higher academia, medicine, or the some phase of social work that you have a special witness for **and which is not being filled by any lay group or groups. **) There is way too much duplication of social work between religious and non-religious, and most of that social work is being done by individual religious in isolation, which seriously diminishes its effectiveness and its witness.

Choose a limited number of consolidated communities. If there are “lifestyle” or age issues, you can compartmentalize within those communities if necessary.

And I would hope that current or prospective religious would also have an eye to what the nation and world needs, not just what they as individuals need, in forming or reforming a mission. There are hundreds of sisters in my area, for example, doing individual social work in an area overrun by willing lay social workers, but that same area is in far greater need of Catholic school teachers & principals who can impart & witness to a true spirituality. It’s difficult for me to believe that there are not enough excellent teachers among those sisters who are young enough, capable enough, talented enough to staff at least 3 already existing schools. And the problem with poor catechesis in the Church? This should be addresed with a combined effort of priests and sisters in their existing geographical locations. They should oversee catechesis and contribute directly to it.

I regret that the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction of what Religious originally were: answering to a call beyond themselves. The language of too many of them in my area focuses on self-fulfillment as the priority – which also frankly is additionally a result of no longer living in community, but living in isolation.

If I were an active religious traditionally oriented, I would be looking to Rome to help streamline and fund my (our!) mission as an Order, so that I could more successfully answer my calling. That could be a valuable outcome of a Vatican visit. And from Rome’s perspective, from a strictly dollar viewpoint, I think it has every right to question roles and living styles in order to know what it might be helping to fund, let alone what is going on there in the name of Catholicism. If anything, perhaps Orders should have been saying (if they haven’t yet), look Rome, this is what we need to complete our mission. If individual sisters or Orders do not want to be in communion with Rome, and/or abhor transparency, then they cannot expect moral, practical, and economic support either. It’s the same way individual secular businesses work.
Excellent, Excellent post Elizabeth. As someone discerning a religious life, I think your absolutely correct. (I had to edit due to length)
 
…Here’ s my perspective, as one who was deeply and positively influenced while in school, by nuns in community – active, intelligent, intellectual, courageous, self-giving nuns. The order – like other orders of their time – was effective for two reasons: life in community was a built-in support system which lightened indiviidual loads; and the entire order had a single focus: teaching.

Living in community was spiritually invigorating and comforting: that’s from their lips. Because numbers decreased in many orders, the physical facilities closed as well, resulting in smaller clusters, the dilution of mission among those who remained (branching out into additional and sometimes too-broad missions), and eventually resulting in living alone & isolated, with occasional coming together in community – much too occasionally.

I do support the realistic need for all people, including nuns and priests, to follow an appropriate personal occupation, not just a vocation. Thus, I do not disagree with Sondra Schneiders that a witness in academia is just as important as other roles. And if you can’t teach or hate teaching, you shouldn’t teach. Same for social work; same for medicine. That’s why orders used to specialize and should specialize again. Each active order should have a specialized mission, limit itself to that, combine in numbers and benefit from living in community. It means that there will be fewer houses, whereas now you can often settle or resettle in a neighborhood near you once your formation is complete. But when you do that, your witness is diluted, esp. if you are not wearing a habit. The public preivously did not just identify a particular nun; they identified a whole Order. The Sisters of ________ meant something to the surrounding area and often nationally as well…
You have an interesting, well-thought out point of view, and I enjoyed reading your post. I’ve often thought similarly myself: Why wouldn’t orders want to consolidate and share resources, like rural public schools are forced to do? Wouldn’t that make them stronger, more relevant? Wouldn’t that be more environmentally friendly and efficient?

Then I realized there is a fundamental flaw with this perspective - it’s too utilitarian! It does not respect the multitude of charisms that the various congregations have been formed in. It reduces religious life to an ecclesiastical workforce, much as religious life in the US was before VII! Congregations are trying to get away from that image for good reason - it one-dimensional and unhealthy. It is one-dimensional because such an image of religious life reduces that person (along with a habit) to a dime-a-dozen someone who does ___ for Christ rather than someone who IS for Christ. It can be unhealthy for the order because not only does it not allow them room to grow and transform in their charism, but as an “ecclesiastical workforce” they probably would not get paid market-rate salaries/insurance/benefits/retirement for their professional work. We have a situation like that now, where elderly religious who have served all their lives, well-past retirement age, are insecure about meeting their daily needs and medical costs because at a time when they were young and their peers were working for a living wage and building up pensions, they never saw a paycheck; their order used whatever little pay they received for the whole community to subsist on. They do not now, and never did, receive funding from the Vatican. Just because they do not live OF the world, does not mean they do not live IN the world!

I think most consecrated religious will agree that their lives are for ministry, which has at least three intertwining parts - community, prayer, and works. If we argued that works were most important, that we should “consolidate” orders around that exclusively, that negates the importance of the other two as part of their Christian witness. Someone who discerns a call to a particular order is (or should be) wrestling with all aspects of that order’s charism to find a fit. Indeed, if all you want to do is teach school, or even teach school and be involved in a professional community of teachers and a Christian community that prays regularly, that is no need to join a religious order. One can do that well as a secular teacher who stays active in his/her parish and AEA. Furthermore, as the overall numbers of religious shrink, maintaining a “teaching order” of sisters who are not all gifted or professionally qualified to teach makes no sense - there are plenty of other secular teachers who can, will, and should do that work. Those sisters who are not meant to be teachers should discern other needed ministries in keeping with the spirit of their community and prayer life, and the example of their founder. That is why many of the orders have branched out into other works. They are simply trying to reform their orders by giving witness to Christ by who they ARE, not simply by what they do or what they look like.
 
It’s long overdue IMHO, but you won’t get this from this piece, which seems to imply the big bad male-dominated heirarchy of “the Vatican” is doing this for no good reason. Imagine the horror of inquiring whether a nun actually goes to Mass. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately you don’t have to look too far among Catholic women religious to find absolute heterodoxy. A woman religious at a parish I used to attend frequently made reference to God as “she” and gave talks about new-age spirituality.
I noted Sister Schneiders is a professor from Berzerkly, and an IHM, why am I not surprised? I presume she’s a card carrying member of the “progressive” group, LCRW. I also noted the NYT failed to interview any members of the orthodox sisters’ group, CMSWR as part of their “unbiased” reporting.

Speaking of heterodox, how about this from the 2007 LCRW Conference keynote address. " The dynamic option for Religious Life, which I am calling, Sojourning, is much more difficult to discuss, since it involves moving beyond the Church, even beyond Jesus. A sojourning congregation is no longer ecclesiastical. It has grown beyond the bounds of institutional religion. Its search for the Holy may have begun rooted in Jesus as the Christ, but deep reflection, study and prayer have opened it up to the spirit of the Holy in all of creation. Religious titles, institutional limitations, ecclesiastical authorities no longer fit this congregation, which in most respects is Post-Christian."…Excerpt from the address by Sr. Laurie Brink lcwr.org/lcwrannualassembly/2007assembly/Keynote.pdf

I’m no longer confused as to why Rome may be curious…

For myself, I hope there’s information as to which orders are still attracting young women. Anecdotal information is the more orthodox orders, still residing in communities rather than condos, who are still loyal to Rome rather than themselves, are achieving more vocations than their “progressive” counterparts.
 
You have an interesting, well-thought out point of view, and I enjoyed reading your post. I’ve often thought similarly myself: Why wouldn’t orders want to consolidate and share resources, like rural public schools are forced to do? Wouldn’t that make them stronger, more relevant? Wouldn’t that be more environmentally friendly and efficient?

Then I realized there is a fundamental flaw with this perspective - it’s too utilitarian! It does not respect the multitude of charisms that the various congregations have been formed in. It reduces religious life to an ecclesiastical workforce, much as religious life in the US was before VII! Congregations are trying to get away from that image for good reason - it one-dimensional and unhealthy. It is one-dimensional because such an image of religious life reduces that person (along with a habit) to a dime-a-dozen someone who does ___ for Christ rather than someone who IS for Christ. It can be unhealthy for the order because not only does it not allow them room to grow and transform in their charism, but as an “ecclesiastical workforce” they probably would not get paid market-rate salaries/insurance/benefits/retirement for their professional work.
I respect your opinion, but I do not agree. I think there is room for multiple charisms within an order. (I didn’t mean necessarily literally to require “only teaching,” but I do think an Order needs a focus and an emphasis within that Order.) For example, few orders have only one house; charisms, functions, roles, could be subdivided with members moving as they develop in their vocations & abilities & needs. I see nothing wrong with that. My emphasis was not on gutting the heart of the Order, but rather on preserving that core but with a view to retaining community above all else. I’m sorry, but the current situation does not preserve community – at least among those who of us who have followed the Orders who possibly taught us & influenced us – from what they once were to what they now are. They are mostly not functioning well at all. Because they rarely meet as community, they no longer relate to that community; instead, their identity as a Religious is centered around self-fulfillment. Charism or not, that is not the purpose of a religious order. We need to get back to a healthy blend where people can be honored & nurtured & developed for their innate gifts, but within a unified structure with which they identify as greater than the sum of the individual members. As it is now, some of these Orders function as a collection of independent little units – and as to the retiring or retired ones, they are often the most abandoned of all. Living alone in separate apartments and rarely coming together in some kind of token way is not the Church’s definition of “community.” Nor do I think it is by the definition of most secular people. Gosh, my neighborhood is more of a community than some female Orders are now.

I think part of the problem (as I see it and have followed it for quite some time) is that some middle-aged and elderly sisters now, entered at a very young age when they barely new what their gifts, charisms, talents, inclinations were. They chose an Order because it was the only one they knew at the time. (Some did research, that’s true, and chose from a wider base, but most did not.) They figured if they were answering a call to serve, God would give them whatever graces they needed to serve randomly in whatever Order. But it didn’t always work out that way – not only because they sometimes did not have the inclinations for that Order’s mission, but because the very soul of the Order (not just the “utilitarian” aspect) was not a good fit for them. They didn’t know themselves well when they vowed. Hopefully vocations now entering orders have more options.

And I think if you’re not happy what you’re doing, no amount of soulful identification with a community will compensate for your daily assigned activity. That’s just the way I see it.
🙂
 
Beau - "With the small numbers, of nuns convents are just wasteful "
I totally agree with Beau - it is wasteful to try to maintain an old convent building meant for an outdated model of religious life. There simply isn’t a platoon of nuns for every parish with a school who need to live in long dormitories and keep up the large kitchens, dining halls, common bathrooms, infirmaries, libraries, receiving parlors associated with huge community living. Those buildings were not necessarily built to be comfortable, and were most likely NOT built to today’s building codes for fire safety, handicap accessibility, electricity load, etc; and may have dangerous building materials like asbestos and leaded paint. Neither would they have been built with energy efficiency in mind, particularly with HVAC systems and water usage. The cost is not justifiable to bring these dinosaurs up to code, let alone to remodel the space to be useable for the needs of today’s religious or be energy conscious. It would be poor stewardship of resources to try to resurrect most of them.

That said, I don’t think anybody said anything about prayers of religious not being of value. Those are words you tried to read into his post! Of course prayers are of value to the church, and the conventual communities from which they arise are of great value. Religious orders just have to adapt to new models of small, familial community living (houses or apts) in response to smaller membership and newer ministries. They still pray together, and God still hears their prayer; it’s just more likely to happen in a home chapel or with their local parish.
 
With all due respect, since I was discerning a vocation to the religious life (not something that can be done easily in the US in mid-life unless a person is not an orthodox Catholic). I started realizing that what I had viewed as the “romanticism” of nuns in habits had more to do with other things (orthodox Catholic beliefs and love for Our Lord) than anything else. That usually, nuns not in some form of habit, did not have the zeal for Our Lord and want to evangelize by their obvious consecration to Him. I saw that those not wearing any form of habit (other than a pin) were all too often the same ones that went in for liturgical dance, women’s “ordination”, new age beliefs, whose websites talked of social and political justice but didn’t have a word on them about Him or even the Pope. Those were often the ones who easily accepted mid-life vocations in women, too.:rolleyes: Not to say that all nuns who wore habits were completely Catholic and hadn’t had any influences of new age, etc., however for the most part that is what I saw.
well put -
 
I read Donna’s Book, Ungodly Rage last winter after I’d heard her on Teresa Tomeo’s radio show on EWTN. Well footnoted and detailed. She attended many conferences and observed many rituals which you mentioned, manualman; paganistic, indeed. This review of women religious is WAY overdue, about 30 yrs, IMO.
Copies may be had for a very reasonable cost at Alibris.com (used books).

New Oxford Review often prints articles about the paganistic practices some orders are into; sad that they actually even promote them.
Here’s a couple:
On Retreat With Sister Rupp
newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0608-hutton

Our Pantheistic Sisters
newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=0208-gardiner

One woman religious I know does sidewalk counseling and witnessing regularly in front of an abortion mill. I often think how much more effective she might be just wearing the veil! There would be an immediate identification of everyone who passes by that a Religious is involved in this important work, and perhaps a recognition that this person could be trusted to be kind in dealing with a woman who is abortion minded.

I really do not mind if the habits worn are modified; the full-length ones made of wool must surely have been an extra burden in hot & humid climates. I do appreciate women religious wearing some sort of identifying garb, not just a large cross.

I was told by a monsignor that NUNS, by definition, are different from women religious. I think it was that Nuns stay cloistered and are not generally out in public.

God bless,
Mimi
I think most of you are WAY on the wrong track about this.

This has NOTHING to do with habits or Sister Jackie who smiled too much and EVERYTHING to do with the kind of spectacular nonsense documented in the book “Ungodly Rage” by Donna Steichen.

This book clearly chronicles the way in which large numbers of radical catholic women (including no small number of religious) who actually abandoned catholic beliefs, went over to overt paganism and have been trying to essentially steal catholic facilities and institutions and redefine catholic words and practices into something that conforms with their pagan beliefs.

I’m not just talking about a tame yoga class here and it goes well beyond the Enneagram fad. This is outright rejection of a personal God, and belief in an all encompassing goddess. The author spent several years going to conferences and getting deeply involved in numerous organizations like this that all had sponsorship and membership from religious orders. It’s a shocking book. Betcha a nickel a copy found it’s way to the Vatican.
 
If a nun, any nun, is living a good holy life, and is fully in line with the Magisterium, then they have nothing to fear.

Now - if they are promoting lesbian life style, not going to Mass, shipping girls to abortions, worshiping some strange “earth mother” weirdness, then they should be very concerned. And I hope the Vatican can find some way to totally distance the Church from them in any and every way possible.

~Liza
Sounds like most of the nuns in MT; unfortunately, the only orthodox one’s I’ve seen in the past 10 or 15 yrs have been on EWTN… 🤷
 
On a Pagan board I post to there is a lot of stuff going on about these Nuns from arm chair Popes.

I personally point out no one made them become Nuns and if your gonna be a Catholic Nun, it ain’t like Paganism. There is no multiple choice, no believe what feels right only. Your signing up to follow a strict list of rules.

I really went at it with one poster who for some reason loved posting links and sources from every place but Catholic ones… Well except for Women Priest (the thread had drifted into women as priests) when I tore her argument up she responded with a laughing smiley and said what started cracking jokes, you know what little girls do when there cornered on an adult subject.
 
Beau - "With the small numbers, of nuns convents are just wasteful "
I don’t see how that is a value judgment on the cloistered communities. I refer to brick and mortar considerations as to their housing, which is often aging and inappropriate under the current fire codes.
 
I was shocked by the local PBS radio talk that was about this. They played ominous music and kept trying to use the outdated name of “Office of the Inquisition” to play on people’s emotions.

I hope the good women who have battled their way these past 30ish years will breath a sigh of relief that the orders they once knew and loved may have a deep renewal. I wish this had happened sooner but I know it will bring some good fruit!
 
I don’t see how that is a value judgment on the cloistered communities. I refer to brick and mortar considerations as to their housing, which is often aging and inappropriate under the current fire codes.
What communities are you refering to that did need not meet fire codes and had to close down due to shortage of money for updating?

Going to apartments devalues the community. The whole point of a convent is important to remember. Being able to construct a cloistering fence for one to make sure that ‘they abandon the world FOR the world’. I believe His Holiness John Paul II was speaking of this at a conference. With an apartment you have neighbors who exhort you to more worldly temptations and conflicts with one to bear fruit for God’s kingdom with the apostolic vocation of prayer. It relates to the Desert Fathers who went to the desert for this purpose.

To go away from convents which house many religious living an authentic cloistered community life goes against a Religious Order’s way of life. The Servites, Augustinians, Carmelites, Carthusians, Cistercians, Fransiscians, are all Orders that derive hundreds of years for contemplative nuns living in cloistered convents.

Each Religious nun is married to their community, and to take away a cloistered convent and their community is hindering and removing them from their calling.

I am obviously speaking of nuns and not sisters; contemplatives, not apostolic. We need convents full of nuns (which may dwindle, will never empty, consider it like a pendulum) who pray for the salvation of the world and for the souls in purgatory!

Also I have never heard of a religious community inviting guests for retreat at a house or apartment. The ones I hear of is always at one of these “outdated” convents or monasterys, most notably being Benedictine.
 
Sounds like most of the nuns in MT; unfortunately, the only orthodox one’s I’ve seen in the past 10 or 15 yrs have been on EWTN… 🤷
I was in the Bible belt during Holy Week (Southern Pines NC) and there were a number of nuns in habits at all Masses we attended- how refreshing! Of course any ‘disguised’ in civilian garb would have remained unnoticed by us… :cool:
 
I was in the Bible belt during Holy Week (Southern Pines NC) and there were a number of nuns in habits at all Masses we attended- how refreshing! Of course any ‘disguised’ in civilian garb would have remained unnoticed by us… :cool:
My family encountered a busload of Carmelites from LA in December. They were out on a Christmas lights tour, and were using the restroom (2 x 2) at the steak house where we were dining. There must have been at least 60 nuns, all in full habit. They scored a hefty check from each of my family groups, as well as from other diners. Once I received the thank you note, I went on the web and became a monthly donor. My sister and niece did the same. I’m sure my family and those December diners aren’t the only ones happy to open their pocketbooks to communities who demonstrate, without reservation, their humility and dedication towards their vows.

BTW, at least half the sisters we saw were young, by nuns standards :), and there were a number of postulants and novices present.
 
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