US Nuns Facing Vatican Scrutiny [NYT]

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My family encountered a busload of Carmelites from LA in December. They were out on a Christmas lights tour, and were using the restroom (2 x 2) at the steak house where we were dining. There must have been at least 60 nuns, all in full habit. They scored a hefty check from each of my family groups, as well as from other diners. Once I received the thank you note, I went on the web and became a monthly donor. My sister and niece did the same. I’m sure my family and those December diners aren’t the only ones happy to open their pocketbooks to communities who demonstrate, without reservation, their humility and dedication towards their vows.

BTW, at least half the sisters we saw were young, by nuns standards :), and there were a number of postulants and novices present.
All of these women were young & many appeared to be of Eastern Indian decent. The only nun/sister in our parish wears street clothes, uses inclusive language during Sunday Mass & does not attend daily Mass, tho she is employed by the parish & is at her office at the church during the times daily Mass is held… discouraging to say the least! :grouphug:
 
I’m very new to this forum and while reading the titles, this topic jumped out at me. I have an aunt who I love and respect very much, who is in her late 90’s and just celebrated her 75 jubilee as a “nun”. At the recent celebration, there were very few nuns wearing even the head covering. Interestingly, the foreign nuns were all in habits. My aunt who is a sharp as a tack, openly promotes married priests and the ordination of religious women as well. She also voted democratic in the last election. As a product of 16 years of Catholic education, most, if not all the nuns I encounted shared this view as well as some of them being pro-abortion. IMHO… I truly believe with all these “social” differences within our church, that within my lifetime, sadly we will see a split in the Catholic Church.
 
I’m very new to this forum and while reading the titles, this topic jumped out at me. I have an aunt who I love and respect very much, who is in her late 90’s and just celebrated her 75 jubilee as a “nun”. At the recent celebration, there were very few nuns wearing even the head covering. Interestingly, the foreign nuns were all in habits. My aunt who is a sharp as a tack, openly promotes married priests and the ordination of religious women as well. She also voted democratic in the last election. As a product of 16 years of Catholic education, most, if not all the nuns I encounted shared this view as well as some of them being pro-abortion. IMHO… I truly believe with all these “social” differences within our church, that within my lifetime, sadly we will see a split in the Catholic Church.
Welcome to the forums kneese & congrats to your aunt for reaching such a milestone! I will pray that her views come in line w/ the teachings of the church. There will always only be One Holy & Apostolic Catholic Church. This is scriptural from the mouth of Jesus (and he would never lie to us right?). Though the Catholic church will remain One, folks are free to leave & ‘do their own thing’ as many have as evidenced by the more than 38,000 Christian denomination/sects worlwide. Sadly there are way too many people w/in the church that have effectively ex-communicated themselves due to their heretical views.

Pax,
Jim
 
For years I have been thoroughly frustrated by the direction and attitudes I see in many of the nuns I have come in contact with. I believe firmly that religious orders are conceived by their founders with the intent to pursue a spiritual direction toward the heavenly Kingdom if not radically different from what the world offers, at least to a great extent at odds with it. If this is not the case, then joining a particular convent is merely a convenience, not different from joining a social club that offers a particular philosophy, activities, or the convenience of easy access to fellowship, companionship, and communication with others of like-mind for people who might not on their own find that to be an easy task.

Throughout the history of the Church there have been religious communities that have radically veered from the original purpose of their founders, and there have been as well movements of reform that have attempted to bring back such communities to their original purpose, which in the end is to serve God in a more complete way, either free of the cultural distractions of secular life, or in a life where sacrifice, obedience and the gift of oneself to a higher purpose. Anyone who has seen the excellent Spanish movie periodically shown on EWTN about the life of Teresa of Avila can identify this.

The point is that the religious life is, and must be, a life of personal sacrifice dedicated to the love of God and neighbor. However, what we see presently, especially among some of the religious communities in the US, and more so in those where the nuns have for some time abandoned the original ideals of the community and are out in the world, practically indistinguishable from the laity in conduct and dress, is at time not only un-edifying but outright shocking.

It is true that those who choose the married life may not be a paragon of fidelity to the chosen vocation itself; it is said that even among Catholics the rate of divorce hovers around 50%. However, those who marry do not consciously go into the marriage with the intent of swearing fealty or an oath to a particular religious house whose rules and guidelines were sought from and initially allowed and sanctioned by the ruling body of the Catholic Church. In my view, leaving the rule and life dictated by the order then, is akin to seeking and obtaining identification with one of the major social or service clubs, with a prominent political party or organization, then abandoning its charter to pursue one’s own political and social ends - even opposing or misrepresenting the charter- while still claiming to be a member in good standing.

My experience with heterodox nuns -except with the likes of the beyond liberal Joan Chittister who has been prominently featured in PBS documentaries and makes what must be a handsome living in the quasi-Catholic lecture circuit- has not been extremely negative, though not positive or edifying either. At some point in my life I had a deep religious re-conversion to my faith and thought it prudent to contact one of the nearest convents for guidance and fine-tuning. On the one hand, the Irish nuns who guided my children’s school were in deep discord with the pastor -a highly abrasive man at the time, visibly more interested in the finance angle of his parish than on the spiritual direction- and were ultimately the losers in the conflict, hence soon to be packed back to their country. The nun who replaced them came from the nuns of Notre Dame de Namur, an order I believe is associated with ND University, and we know how orthodox that place is, don’t we?

To my dismay this nun was somewhat New Agey, focused on the ‘Centering movement’ as preached by Karl Keating, Basil Pennington and Thomas Merton, when what I needed was someone along the lines of precisely Teresa of Avila: single minded, strong and faithful to the Magisterium and the mission of the Church. This nun lived in her own apartment and wore no habit. Further, she seemed either confused or antagonized by my spirituality.

The nuns of the school of my childhood, though still in habit and living in community, were not much better. When I related to them the fact that after many years of unhappiness, deep inner conflict and search for the meaning of life I had found peace, knowledge of myself and a relationship with God in a tacitly miraculous manner, they looked at me as to a mental institution. From that I surmised they themselves did not have any idea of what spirituality was if it hit them upside the head. I was lucky to have the inspiration to persevere on my own in the path I’d found and to have books, along with the Bible, that seemed to appear as if by magic with just the perfect word that put my experience in context. If I had relied on those nuns I would still be waiting for guidance, or would have been misled.

My point is, finally, that the Church itself has done a poor job of educating and guiding the faith of many its ministers, and of channeling their initial impulse to serve. In many cases what we have is a warehousing of people who at some point end up coming face to face with the sterility of their commitment, their lack of understanding of themselves and others, and ultimately end up abandoning that commitment while remaining in some state of suspended religious animation perhaps at best neither good to themselves and, at worst, a bad example to others.

Caution here, I am not generalizing. There are plenty of emerging orders that seem to be excellent, such as the ones in the Carmelites of the Renewal (?), and the sisters whose mother house -I cannot remember the name- is in Ann Arbor, MI to mention the most recognizable ones because they are on TV. I’m sure there are many more all over as well. But the ones who seem to be most faithful and committed are recognizable because they wear the habit and are not afraid to be stared at in the present ultra-secularized world.
 
I just finished a book about nuns, the title is “Unveiled”. It tells about quite a few different orders and their ways. some wore habits, some didn’t. The habits seems to be a stumbling block to alot of them. While they loved the fact of wearing one, most nuns found them to be very uncomfortable (and at times smelly) Most were made of wool, (even in the hotter climates) because wool lasted longer than other cloths. So in order to wash them, they had to completely tear them apart, wash and then sew them back together. They also wore quite a few layers of undergarments. Which kept the habits from being soiled by sweat too quickly. (Most were allowed only 2 habits.) All these layers in hot weather, you can imagine is almost unbearable.

The sisters give up a lot to give a lifetime of love and devotion. I would venture to say that most nuns do more physical labor for their pittance of a salary than alot of Vatican officials. Back in the “old days”, the nuns didn’t even get a salary and when it came to drawing their Social Security, there was none and some lived in squander.

Alot of us have put nuns up on a pedestal, never thinking of what that pedestal cost them or what they go through daily to maintain that pedestal.

If a nun doesn’t want to wear that hot habit, then that should be her decision. I agree that some sort of “religious garb” would be great but not necessarily all that goes with those habits. I met a nun in a Catholic cardic hospital once and she had on a below the knee black skirt, white blouse and the head wrap of most novices. Although she was a fully vowed nun, she perferred to dress in a way that wouldn’t bring so much attention to herself. She said she could get more people to talk with her in her dress than in a full habit. That there seemed to be a more open relationship. The people saw her as a religious person but one that was much more approachable.

There’s always two sides to everything.🙂
 
The non-cloistered nuns in this part of the country (Iowa) are stark raving radicals. They are frequently in the news championing for illegal immigrants
Bad selection of words. Being a nun or monk is “radical”. And there certainly is nothing unorthodox about champion for those in need, whether they be illegal immigrants or otherwise.
 
I truly believe with all these “social” differences within our church, that within my lifetime, sadly we will see a split in the Catholic Church.
We see a “split” all the time…it’s called people/dissenters leaving the Church. But there can be no “split” in the Church since there is only one pope. Those who follow him and the teachings of the Church are Catholic. Those that don’t have removed themselves from communion with the Church.
 
The non-cloistered nuns in this part of the country (Iowa) are stark raving radicals. They are frequently in the news championing for illegal immigrants or being arrested at US military bases in protest of our Government and especially when those evil Republicans were running the show.
Well, I would point out that John Paul II calls deportation an intrinsic evil along with abortion and genocide in Veritatis Splendor, echoing the words of Paul VI in Gaudium et Spes.

Further, I don’t know what they were protesting at the military bases, but both John Paul II and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (before he became pope) spoke out against the Iraq war.

Of course, the apostolic visitation can only be a good thing, as there are some rather egregious excesses. I grew up in Erie, PA, home to Sister Joan Chittister (enough said) and I’m in another diocese now where one church I sometimes go to has another Sister Joan who regularly gives long `reflections’ after the homily where she talks about things like how Jesus had no idea that He was going to be crucified in Jerusalem, but was just sort of an itinerant preacher wandering around Judea doing good stuff.

I suppose I shouldn’t say much more, as I’ll probably wind up identifying the diocese, but there was another incident where a woman (and a priest) at another parish went too far in their appeal for women’s ordination, excommunicated themselves and took a lot of parishoners with them. I don’t think she was a nun, but some of the sisters in the diocese certainly are supportive of the women’s ordination movement.

Edit: I should point out that I have encountered many very good nuns as well. I recall that most of the Carmelite nuns that I knew when I was in Erie radiated holiness, and I don’t think I ever ran into the Benedictine nuns that Joan Chittister was with.
 
It’s long overdue IMHO, but you won’t get this from this piece, which seems to imply the big bad male-dominated heirarchy of “the Vatican” is doing this for no good reason. Imagine the horror of inquiring whether a nun actually goes to Mass. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately you don’t have to look too far among Catholic women religious to find absolute heterodoxy. A woman religious at a parish I used to attend frequently made reference to God as “she” and gave talks about new-age spirituality.
As to your second paragraph, that is just absolutely disgusting! Nuns should be faithful to the Catholic Church!
I once knew a a nun who would tell us teenage girls that Jesus often had girlfriends and so he understood us having a boyfriend and relationships. I have also heard of nuns who will taxi teenage girls to the abortion mills.

Yes this investigation is very much needed. I also know many, many nuns who do follow church teaching and the refreshing thing about these nuns is that they are the younger nuns.👍 A change is in the air and it is coming from our youth they are tired of being lied to.
Wow. That is just horrible. I agree that the investigation is needed.
I think it’s important that nuns wear habits and live in convents, as they used to. If that’s the direction that this visitation points to, then I welcome it.
I agree.
 
Unfortunately you don’t have to look too far among Catholic women religious to find absolute heterodoxy. A woman religious at a parish I used to attend frequently made reference to God as “she” and gave talks about new-age spirituality.
As to your second paragraph, that is just absolutely disgusting! Nuns should be faithful to the Catholic Church!
Well, in some contexts, it is actually appropriate. The book of Wisdom identifies Wisdom as feminine, and it seems perfectly appropriate to call the Wisdom of God a part of God.

I’d be just as outraged if I saw someone switching genders in a translation of Wisdom as I would be with the nonsense about ``our fathermother.’’ Well, that last one is a crime against the English language, too.
 
This is just like everything else. When it’s bad news, it travels at the speed of light. When it’s good news, it’s the slow go to nowhere.

I would like to read posts about the good things the nuns do. Whether they are in habit or not, there’s got to be some good somewhere, isn’t there?:confused:

If everybody is trying to tell the nuns how to live their lives, then it is like that passage in the Bible where as…“If one of you hath no sin, let him throw the first stone”.
 
Well, I would point out that John Paul II calls deportation an intrinsic evil along with abortion and genocide in Veritatis Splendor, echoing the words of Paul VI in Gaudium et Spes.{/QUOTE]

He called deportation an “intrinsic evil”? Can you provide a link for this?
Further, I don’t know what they were protesting at the military bases, but both John Paul II
 
In reply to post #65 by AuntieM

–“I just finished a book about nuns, the title is “Unveiled”. It tells about quite a few different orders and their ways. some wore habits, some didn’t. The habits seems to be a stumbling block to alot of them. While they loved the fact of wearing one, most nuns found them to be very uncomfortable (and at times smelly) Most were made of wool, (even in the hotter climates) because wool lasted longer than other cloths. So in order to wash them, they had to completely tear them apart, wash and then sew them back together. They also wore quite a few layers of undergarments. Which kept the habits from being soiled by sweat too quickly. (Most were allowed only 2 habits.) All these layers in hot weather, you can imagine is almost unbearable.”–

I have never heard of any order of nuns, past or present, who did not wear some distinctive form of dress to distinguish themselves from the secular population, though having said that I do seem to remember the women who joined the Carmelites at the time of Teresa of Avila did in fact attempt to live in community with all the accoutrements of their previous life: jewelry maids and ladies in waiting included. They were nothing more than bored rich widows and spinsters who did not want to live the rest of their lives alone and used the convent life only as a pretext. They in fact were intent on gathering in a convenient ‘religious sowing circle.’ Teresa seeing this sought to disabuse them of their pretense by launching a ‘reform’ which at times threatened her life by putting her in the cross-hairs of the Inquisition Tribunal. The women she took on were not only powerful but, lacking in any understanding of their own faith and of what the religious life entailed (and this concept is absolutely key), they were extremely vengeful as well.

It seems to me the same mentality is affecting the present ‘nunnery feminist rebels’ in the US, and their apologists and chroniclers.’ First of all, the mere consideration that ‘their habits seem to be a stumbling block’ is risible. This shows that these women have no concept of what the convent life is all about. I am not now, nor have I ever been a nun, yet I understand that if I decide to dedicate my life to God I will do it without reservations, not holding back in the least. Can anyone REALLY think God should be cheated, fooled or short-changed once one vows to serve Him? The clear understanding of what God demands is exactly what made the saints, well… SAINTS! The form of dress I will be asked to wear then, should be the least of my concerns.

In any case, if the weight or material of the dress is a problem there are several possible solutions:
a) Summer and Winter habits made of appropriate materials.
b) Has anyone heard of the word SACRIFICE? Yes, I know that one has been lost from the Catholic vocabulary.

Those entering the religious, of all people, once having decided to dedicate their life to God should not be boggled down or quit the life because of inane reservations. The fact some do clearly shows who they are, what they are made of and, ultimately, that their commitment is conditional and only a mere convenience.
 
2nd reply to post #65 by AuntieM

***The sisters give up a lot to give a lifetime of love and devotion. I would venture to say that most nuns do more physical labor for their pittance of a salary than alot of Vatican officials. Back in the “old days”, the nuns didn’t even get a salary and when it came to drawing their Social Security, there was none and some lived in squander.**I]

a) Yes it is true that those that go into the religious life give up their entire life to serve others whether that be in the cloister in prayer, or in some form of service in hospitals, schools and missions, but that’s is a choice they make consciously, no one forces them to do so. Few of them are dissuaded from the life on the consideration of being exposed to hard work, in fact that is precisely what calls some of them.

b) Yes too, some nuns’ salary is far lower than that of Vatican officials - though I would venture to say that curia salaries are not princely or comparable to those in corporate life, even if the responsibilities are similar to those of execs in multinational corporations - but nuns don’t go into that kind of life expecting to get rich or as a career. Many however, do pursue higher education degrees which serve them in various other ways, some of which include fame and money (those who end up as published writers) which they might not have had the opportunity to do had they remained in the secular or married life.

c) Again, receiving a salary was not, or should have never played a part, in their decision to join a convent. If that was the case, it’s clear they never belonged in that life to begin with.

d) As for the lack of Soc. Sec. receipts in their old age – frankly, I think that the author of the book you just read must be someone who is trying to find fault with the religious life or trying to portray it in the most negative light by focusing on the materialistic aspects without understanding what exactly the religious life is. One more time, the convent life is about OBEDIENCE, POVERTY AND CHASTITY, in other words of total sacrifice!

I further would dispute that any of the women who chose to surrender to that life ended up living in SQUALOR. I have lived in many countries throughout the world and have relatives who have joined very poor - actually mendicant - communities and have never seen or heard them complain about going hungry or naked. In fact, one of my aunts who has lived at times among the Tarahumara Indians in northern Mexico (a particularly passive group of people who can spend half a day sitting in one position without doing work), or in convents where they serve orphans and the terminally ill elderly without expecting pay, live in amazement of how PROVIDENCE supplies their needs. At times, when they had literally nothing in their pantry, sacks of rice and beans from unsuspected sources seemed to appear at their door. So I would say that the religious life is first and foremost about trust in God and in the fact that He’ll never fail us. Doesn’t the Bible say: “Seek first the Kingdom of God, and everything else shall be given you in addition”?*
 
He called deportation an “intrinsic evil”? Can you provide a link for this?
Yes.

Veritatis Splendor: Paragraph 80
Gaudium et Spes: Paragraph 27
Yes they did-HOWVER Cardinal Ratzinger stated that Catholics of good conscience could support the war BUTthe same could not be said for abortion.
Well stated. It does, however, suggest that nuns can earnestly protest the war in Iraq without being being in error. We were not, however, told why they were protesting. It’s possible that they were protesting the very existence of a military, which is something that could strain relations between the Church and the US.

(That’s not to say that elimination of the military isn’t a tenable theological position, but it’s not one that the Church is actively pursuing right now and one that I don’t think is feasible)
 
In any case, if the weight or material of the dress is a problem there are several possible solutions:
a) Summer and Winter habits made of appropriate materials.
b) Has anyone heard of the word SACRIFICE? Yes, I know that one has been lost from the Catholic vocabulary.

Those entering the religious, of all people, once having decided to dedicate their life to God should not be boggled down or quit the life because of inane reservations. The fact some do clearly shows who they are, what they are made of and, ultimately, that their commitment is conditional and only a mere convenience.
I believe your (a) suggestion is happening. The habits I see in pictures don’t look heavy and wool anymore. Some orders even have a summer and winter version.

Your (b) point : Come on now… I realize you are trying to come off as hard nosed and no nonsense but look at the reality of this. I’m not sure how effective the nuns would be in their work (especially the elderly nuns. They don’t retire remember?) while in heat exhaustion. I’m sure they have many ways of sacrificing that don’t endanger their health.
i]The sisters give up a lot to give a lifetime of love and devotion. I would venture to say that most nuns do more physical labor for their pittance of a salary than alot of Vatican officials. Back in the “old days”, the nuns didn’t even get a salary and when it came to drawing their Social Security, there was none and some lived in squander.*
a) Yes it is true that those that go into the religious life give up their entire life to serve others whether that be in the cloister in prayer, or in some form of service in hospitals, schools and missions, but that’s is a choice they make consciously, no one forces them to do so. Few of them are dissuaded from the life on the consideration of being exposed to hard work, in fact that is precisely what calls some of them.
b) Yes too, some nuns’ salary is far lower than that of Vatican officials - though I would venture to say that curia salaries are not princely or comparable to those in corporate life, even if the responsibilities are similar to those of execs in multinational corporations - but nuns don’t go into that kind of life expecting to get rich or as a career. Many however, do pursue higher education degrees which serve them in various other ways, some of which include fame and money (those who end up as published writers) which they might not have had the opportunity to do had they remained in the secular or married life.
c) Again, receiving a salary was not, or should have never played a part, in their decision to join a convent. If that was the case, it’s clear they never belonged in that life to begin with.
d) As for the lack of Soc. Sec. receipts in their old age – frankly, I think that the author of the book you just read must be someone who is trying to find fault with the religious life or trying to portray it in the most negative light by focusing on the materialistic aspects without understanding what exactly the religious life is. One more time, the convent life is about OBEDIENCE, POVERTY AND CHASTITY, in other words of total sacrifice!
I further would dispute that any of the women who chose to surrender to that life ended up living in SQUALOR. I have lived in many countries throughout the world and have relatives who have joined very poor - actually mendicant - communities and have never seen or heard them complain about going hungry or naked. In fact, one of my aunts who has lived at times among the Tarahumara Indians in northern Mexico (a particularly passive group of people who can spend half a day sitting in one position without doing work), or in convents where they serve orphans and the terminally ill elderly without expecting pay, live in amazement of how PROVIDENCE supplies their needs. At times, when they had literally nothing in their pantry, sacks of rice and beans from unsuspected sources seemed to appear at their door. So I would say that the religious life is first and foremost about trust in God and in the fact that He’ll never fail us. Doesn’t the Bible say: “Seek first the Kingdom of God, and everything else shall be given you in addition”?*
So, It seems to me that we can sum up your entire post by saying,
  1. They chose the life and all the hardship that comes with it. No one forced them too.
  1. The rest of us have the right to judge them, have expectations of our own of them, can talk at great lengths about their evil, selfish ways because we are (What??? Their boss? Better than them? Feel superior? Supporting them??? I’m really trying to find a good reason here…)
  1. There would be no way we would ever be thankful to such people for their works and prayers.
I am happy the investigation is happening as I said before and I really do hope good comes from it. I pray for it.
Here is a suggestion everyone, it is obvious by now how you feel about these ladies. Why don’t you let the actual investigators do their job and let them be judged and those that need correcting be corrected by whom has the right to do so.
Throw the first stone people! If you have the right, let’s hear it.
 
Reply #3 to Auntie M – Post #65

***Alot of us have put nuns up on a pedestal, never thinking of what that pedestal cost them or what they go through daily to maintain that pedestal. ***

One more time, no one forces men or women to join a religious order. Those who do so do it out of their own free will. Further, while one must thank God for giving some the drive and dedication to serve others, and admire the life of sacrifice that sets them apart none of them, I suspect, expects to be put on a pedestal. Mother Teresa, Francis of Asissi, Dominic, Therese of Lisieux, et al, never expected plaudits, and in fact in all humility ran away from them as a distraction. They loved God and that was ALL! This has to be the ONLY motivation to serve.

***If a nun doesn’t want to wear that hot habit, then that should be her decision. I agree that some sort of “religious garb” would be great but not necessarily all that goes with those habits. I met a nun in a Catholic cardic hospital once and she had on a below the knee black skirt, white blouse and the head wrap of most novices. Although she was a fully vowed nun, she perferred to dress in a way that wouldn’t bring so much attention to herself. She said she could get more people to talk with her in her dress than in a full habit. That there seemed to be a more open relationship. The people saw her as a religious person but one that was much more approachable.

There’s always two sides to everything.***

If a nun doesn’t want to wear a ‘hot habit’ she should avoid the calling. The convent life is not about convenience nor does it have anything to do with fashion. I am afraid you totally misunderstand what the religious life is all about.

The Catholic faith, in fact, is one enormous tent or umbrella under whose cover many forms of spirituality and service are nurtured and encouraged. There are literally hundreds of orders with different habits, yet they were mostly chosen as a symbolic statement, rather than as an act of conscious fashion. Though some orders, like the Sisters of Charity (mother Teresa’s) wear saris, appropriate to the hot and humid climate of India, rolling up their sleeve when in duty, while in Winter they put on sweaters and coats over them. Just logical.

Sure, under certain circumstances, there could be some leeway to use appropriate clothing, such as in the operating room in a hospital. I have never seen a nun/nurse hovering over the surgical table wearing enormous wide sleeves, or the big cone of the French Sisters of Charity, though many of them, for centuries in fact, fully manned (ouch! that might be considered a sexist designation) many hospitals dressed in that garb, and no one suffered or complained, until the disarray and misinterpretation of documents of Vat II.

As for discarding the use of a distinctive garb, most professions demanding one would be at a loss without one. They in fact help in projecting a certain authority (cops, priests, nuns, military), in protecting those who wear them (firemen), or in establishing an identity (school children, cheerleaders, etc.). I have heard exactly the contrary you relate as to being in habit. Fathers Groeschel, Corapi and others relate how people, even those who are not Catholic, flock to them in airports and are glad to see them in planes. They feel somehow ‘protected and blessed.’ On the other hand, imagine for instance cops not wearing uniforms! Even though there are some who need to be undercover, the lack of distinctive clothing would be a source of confusion. How would we know who is, and is not one?

There may indeed be two sides to everything, but in the case of religious vestments, objection to wearing them is such a petty consideration, more having to do with rebellion, individualism, and lack of understanding what a religious vocation demands of those who contemplate it.
 
Wow! I think you have made your point! :rolleyes: Who else are you going after next? OH!! I have one, I sometimes see Priests out in public in civies!!! There you go.

btw, I love habits and God willing I will wear one one day. 🙂
 
Priests should not wear civies, they vowed to serve the lord 24/7 and if like disobedient nuns are unable to fullfill that role, they should hang up their colors and let real men take on the job. Recently I ran into a visiting priest on his way to a house call and he was wearing civies that made him look more like a lounge lizard than a man of God.
 
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