US Presidential Election Debate #1

[kimmielittle]

Dennis Prager has some interesting analysis on the root cause for the Romney win:

Understanding why Mitt Romney so decisively won the first presidential debate is as important as the fact that he did. Why? Because once we know the reasons, almost everything about President Barack Obama and this election becomes clear.

First, Obama lost because he, like virtually the entire left, lives in a left-wing bubble.

Left-wing academics live in this bubble. There is no greater uniformity of thought than at our universities; their much-ballyhooed commitment to diversity is about race and ethnicity, not about ideas.

So, too, the great majority of news media people live in the same bubble, the left-wing herd that covers national and international news. Reading The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times or Le Monde or listening to the BBC is essentially reading or listening to the same selection and presentation of the news.

One reason leftists talk to, read and listen to only fellow leftists is that they are certain that there is no other way to think rationally, compassionately or morally. Therefore, there is no reason to debate conservatives, let alone expose oneself to their ideas.

(snip)
I have met a few stout-hearted leftists who are willing to engage in the marketplace of ideas, but, with those few exceptions, I think Prager hit the nail on the head.

IMO They seem to get VERY upset when conservatives go outside that bubble for news sources

 

[Caldera]

Jim Leher Responds to Critics Over His Own Presidential Debate Performance
foxnewsinsider.com/2012/10/08/jim-leher-responds-to-critics-over-his-own-presidential-debate-performance/

He joked, “I’m not really keen on criticism, just as a general thing.” Leher said the criticism has died down after people realized that spin doesn’t work if everyone has seen the event. The format decided upon by the bipartisan debate commission allowed for Leher to implement it the way he did.

 

[LisaA]

IMO They seem to get VERY upset when conservatives go outside that bubble for news sources

The usual reaction is to shoot the messenger. Complaints about “Faux” (so clever!!!) News even though it’s the NYT and CBS and other left leaning outlets that have had the plagarism and fabricated news scandals.

The facts just don’t matter to the Left.

One fact that is a bit pesky, this has been a center right nation for a long time and if anything is becoming more, not less so. I think if people had realized how Left Obama was, he might not have won in the first place. People who voted for him told me he campaigned as a Centrist…my usual response is to say and in what universe was that? People didn’t really listen to him. He sounded like a far Left Utopian Dreamer, not a pragmatic Centrist to me. But again those news outlets that dared mention his strange associates, his lack of experience at anything practical, were called racist.

Lisa

 

[kimmielittle]

The usual reaction is to shoot the messenger. Complaints about “Faux” (so clever!!!) News even though it’s the NYT and CBS and other left leaning outlets that have had the plagarism and fabricated news scandals.

The facts just don’t matter to the Left.

Attack the Messenger
Create a Straw Man
Appeal to personal Authority

Makes me wonder at the quality of education - many are so fond of claiming.
AND what will happen with this Obama Program
townhall.com/columnists/phyllisschlafly/2012/10/09/like_obamacare_obama_core_is_another_power_grab

Will Logic 101 survive?

One fact that is a bit pesky, this has been a center right nation for a long time and if anything is becoming more, not less so. I think if people had realized how Left Obama was, he might not have won in the first place. People who voted for him told me he campaigned as a Centrist…my usual response is to say and in what universe was that? People didn’t really listen to him. He sounded like a far Left Utopian Dreamer, not a pragmatic Centrist to me. But again those news outlets that dared mention his strange associates, his lack of experience at anything practical, were called racist..

Lisa

Funny you should mention that: We are running out of descriptors

townhall.com/tipsheet/kevinglass/2012/10/08/bigoted_to_call_obama_unintelligent_or_lazy

I freely, admit I’m bigoted or color oriented.

It’s the color of Mr Obama’s integrity
It’s the color of Mr Obama’s moral compass
It’s the color of Mr Obama’s agenda

These are my concerns.

Not the color of Mr Obama’s skin

 

[meltzerboy]

Dennis Prager has some interesting analysis on the root cause for the Romney win:

Understanding why Mitt Romney so decisively won the first presidential debate is as important as the fact that he did. Why? Because once we know the reasons, almost everything about President Barack Obama and this election becomes clear.

First, Obama lost because he, like virtually the entire left, lives in a left-wing bubble.

Left-wing academics live in this bubble. There is no greater uniformity of thought than at our universities; their much-ballyhooed commitment to diversity is about race and ethnicity, not about ideas.

So, too, the great majority of news media people live in the same bubble, the left-wing herd that covers national and international news. Reading The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times or Le Monde or listening to the BBC is essentially reading or listening to the same selection and presentation of the news.

One reason leftists talk to, read and listen to only fellow leftists is that they are certain that there is no other way to think rationally, compassionately or morally. Therefore, there is no reason to debate conservatives, let alone expose oneself to their ideas.

(snip)
I have met a few stout-hearted leftists who are willing to engage in the marketplace of ideas, but, with those few exceptions, I think Prager hit the nail on the head.

I’m tired of Dennis Prager’s generalizations about liberals and leftists. If liberals live in a bubble, is this any less the case for conservatives? Psychology teaches us that like-minded individuals prefer to associate with one another with whom they can validate their own beliefs. It is rather uncomfortable for most people, whether liberal or conservative, to have many friends who are opposed to their own political, social, and moral values. True to stereotypical form, Prager, similar to many other conservatives, singles out those naughty leftist and socialist academics for not even being willing to exchange ideas with conservatives, as though almost all academics are leftist and being so is equivalent to being narrow-minded. In my experience as a professor who teaches in predominantly liberal New York City, academics come in all flavors: leftist, liberal, hard right, conservative, centrist, independent. Many are actually apolitical. Sharing ideas with those of different viewpoints is the bread and butter of academia, and, contrary to what Prager asserts, the love of diversity among academics is not limited to issues of race and ethnicity.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The usual reaction is to shoot the messenger. Complaints about “Faux” (so clever!!!) News even though it’s the NYT and CBS and other left leaning outlets that have had the plagarism and fabricated news scandals.

Lisa

This! We conservatives are accused of getting our news from “Faux News” or Rush. even when our links are from other news sources!

They think black conservatives on Town Hall are “Faux News” talking points!

HAHAHA, I listen to NPR every single day! There isn’t a day gone by where they either mention Todd Akin’s “legitimate rape” or Mitt Romney’s “secretly taped 47% remark.” NOT ONE. Yet Biden’s gaffes or Obama’s "you didn’t build that go away within one news cycle.

It helps to develop a fine tuned “bias meter”

 

[LisaA]

This! We conservatives are accused of getting our news from “Faux News” or Rush. even when our links are from other news sources!

They think black conservatives on Town Hall are “Faux News” talking points!

HAHAHA, I listen to NPR every single day! There isn’t a day gone by where they either mention Todd Akin’s “legitimate rape” or Mitt Romney’s “secretly taped 47% remark.” NOT ONE. Yet Biden’s gaffes or Obama’s "you didn’t build that go away within one news cycle.

It helps to develop a fine tuned “bias meter”

I call it a B.S. meter .

We rarely hear anything original…just the bumper sticker talking points. As you said the dopey remarks, taken out of context are repeated as if Moses brought them down to the mountaintop. Meanwhile Joe Biden, Barack Obama or Nancy Pelosi can make absolutely outrageous, inane or completely false claims and crickets chirp.

That’s why I am still baffled at those who claim Obama campaigned as a Centrist. Something about “spread the wealth around” “fair share and fair shake” sounded a bit to the Left to me.

Lisa

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’m tired of Dennis Prager’s generalizations about liberals and leftists. If liberals live in a bubble, is this any less the case for conservatives? Psychology tells us that like-minded individuals prefer to associate with one another with whom they can validate their own beliefs. It is rather uncomfortable for most people, whether liberal or conservative, to have many friends who are opposed to their own political, social, and moral values. True to stereotypical form, Prager, similar to many conservatives, singles out those naughty leftist and socialist academics for not even being willing to exchange ideas with conservatives, as though almost all academics are leftist and being so is equivalent to being narrow-minded. In my experience as a professor who teaches in predominantly liberal New York City, academics come in all flavors: leftist, liberal, hard right, conservative, centrist, independent. Many are actually apolitical. Sharing ideas with those of different viewpoints is the bread and butter of academia, and, contrary to what Prager asserts, the love of diversity among academics is not limited to issues of race and ethnicity.

You are right in some respects, Melzterboy. The problem is, liberals are so loud, it’s hard to get away from them. In choir, there is always one spouting her ideas, women-priests, death penalty, nuns on the bus, blah, blah. She gets her point, and the rest of us shut-up because we are told it’s not the proper venue.

At lunch, same thing.

FB, ugh. liberal relatives treat right wing talking points designed to make make us conservatives Neanderthals and liberal the educated elite. Never mind the facts I’m just as educated as they are.

Watch the** news**, (not Fox “talking points”) same thing.

Listen to NPR, same thing. I don’t listen to conservative talk radio. Too many commercials. And most of them don’t repeat anything new. It’s just talk, no news. I do listen to Catholic radio and NPR daily.

Plus, you have to admit, CAF provides plenty of news stories and invites interesting commentary. People like you expose us to other ways of thinking about issues. I may not agree with you, but I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)uts and insights.

 

[qui_est_ce]

That’s why I am still baffled at those who claim Obama campaigned as a Centrist. Something about “spread the wealth around” “fair share and fair shake” sounded a bit to the Left to me.

Lisa

Oh boy, Lisa, don’t get me started on the “fairness” meter. Reminds me of little kids crying “NO FAIR” to perceived injustices.

 

[LisaA]

I’m tired of Dennis Prager’s generalizations about liberals and leftists. If liberals live in a bubble, is this any less the case for conservatives? Psychology teaches us that like-minded individuals prefer to associate with one another with whom they can validate their own beliefs. It is rather uncomfortable for most people, whether liberal or conservative, to have many friends who are opposed to their own political, social, and moral values. True to stereotypical form, Prager, similar to many conservatives, singles out those naughty leftist and socialist academics for not even being willing to exchange ideas with conservatives, as though almost all academics are leftist and being so is equivalent to being narrow-minded. In my experience as a professor who teaches in predominantly liberal New York City, academics come in all flavors: leftist, liberal, hard right, conservative, centrist, independent. Many are actually apolitical. Sharing ideas with those of different viewpoints is the bread and butter of academia, and, contrary to what Prager asserts, the love of diversity among academics is not limited to issues of race and ethnicity.

Melzerboy how often do you listen to Prager? How many of his books have you read? He often engages with the Left, has them on his show, treats them respectfully even if he disagrees.

His theme is “Clarity over agreement.” He wants both sides to simply understand the other’s perspective, not necessarily agree with it.

If you look at ANY study, survey, article or book, academia is far more represented by Leftist ideas, Leftist politics, and Leftist writing, particularly in the soft “sciences” such as PoliSci, Sociology, Psychology. In fact professors who maintain a different viewpoint don’t get hired or don’t get tenure. Anyone who speaks against the Leftist party line is hung out to dry. Remember the Larry Summers episode where he simply reported the truth, that there are more men in areas such as math, science (hard not fluffy), computers and was immediately tossed out of Harvard. How dare the man suggest that men and women were different? (ask any five year old and they can explain)

I grew up with college prof parents. I’ve seen the Ivory Tower close up and personal. I do not know of a single prof who was conservative although perhaps in business they might be seen now and then. I was a business major and for the most part the profs didn’t mention politics. OTOH when I went back into the Masters of Public Administration classes I was treated to tirades about President Bush, the Iraq War etc. So I suggest if you see diversity among the faculty, it’s not in Liberal Arts or the squish “sciences.”

Leftism has become the religion of many. Sadly I have to say you see this among a lot of what I call cultural Jews. They identify far more with Leftist ideas than the Torah.

Lisa

 

[Catherine_S]

One needs to remain centered on the* serious** business of what has gone on *
in the past four years so that clarity* of facts instruct on the** changes***
*that must **to be **made ***in terms of the up coming election…
…
Romney Dismantles Obama Doctrine: A President Must Use America’s *Power to **Shape ***History, Not **'Lead **from Behind’
*This is what **makes *America exceptional: It is not just the character of our country—it is the record of our accomplishments. America has a proud history of strong, confident, principled global leadership—a history that has been written by patriots of both parties. That is America at its best. And it is the standard by which we measure every President, as wellas anyone who wishes to be President. Unfortunately, this President’s policies have not been equal to our best examples of world leadership. And nowhere is this more evident than in the Middle East.
http://nation.foxnews.com/mitt-romney/2012/10/08/romney-blast-obama-doctrine-foreign-policy-address-hope-not-strategy

 

[Catherine_S]

One needs to remain centered on the* serious** business of what** has** gone on
in the past four years so that** clarity** of facts instruct on the** changes***
that* must** **to be **made ***in terms of the up coming election…
…
Romney Dismantles Obama Doctrine: A President Must Use America’s *Power to **Shape ***History, Not **'Lead **from Behind’
*This is what **makes *America exceptional: It is not just the character of our country—it is the record of our accomplishments. America has a proud history of strong, confident, principled global leadership—a history that has been written by patriots of both parties. That is America at its best. And it is the standard by which we measure every President, as well as anyone who wishes to be President. Unfortunately, this President’s policies have not been equal to our best examples of world leadership. And nowhere is this more evident than in the Middle East.
http://nation.foxnews.com/mitt-romney/2012/10/08/romney-blast-obama-doctrine-foreign-policy-address-hope-not-strategy
.

 

[kimmielittle]

I’m tired of Dennis Prager’s generalizations about liberals and leftists. If liberals live in a bubble, is this any less the case for conservatives? Psychology teaches us that like-minded individuals prefer to associate with one another with whom they can validate their own beliefs. It is rather uncomfortable for most people, whether liberal or conservative, to have many friends who are opposed to their own political, social, and moral values. True to stereotypical form, Prager, similar to many other conservatives, singles out those naughty leftist and socialist academics for not even being willing to exchange ideas with conservatives, as though almost all academics are leftist and being so is equivalent to being narrow-minded. In my experience as a professor who teaches in predominantly liberal New York City, academics come in all flavors: leftist, liberal, hard right, conservative, centrist, independent. Many are actually apolitical. Sharing ideas with those of different viewpoints is the bread and butter of academia, and, contrary to what Prager asserts, the love of diversity among academics is not limited to issues of race and ethnicity.

I wonder if your views of academic diversity, and how you are treated by your academic peers, would be challenged, if all of a sudden you started enthusiastically expressing conservative views? Kinda like the undercover journalist who pretended to be a hooker.

I think, it may be an eye opener.

 

[LisaA]

.
Interesting preview of the debate on foreign policy. Did anyone else hear Lara Logan’s skewering of the current attitude in Obama Administration with respect to the Middle East? I wouldnt think of her as a Right Wing Hack and she was brave enough to make the speech in Chicago of all places. She said there is a complacency that borders on irresponsibility with respect to the Middle East. She said the Aministration is continuing to advance the narrative that with Osama gone, the Taliban and Al Qaeda are withering away…which is not true.

Futher it seems the whole “it was the video” claim was based on the theory they could fool the American people until after the election. Clearly they knew early on that it was a well orchestrated attack, not a spontaneous uprising. But even more disconnected was the idea they could hide the truth in this world of 24/7 news, bloggers, Twitter etc. I think Romney has learned that already.

I will be curious what kind of questions both candidates will receive at the upcoming debate.

Lisa

 

[reclaimed]

Romney kicked Obama’s behind. That is all.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I wonder if your views of academic diversity, and how you are treated by your academic peers, would be challenged, if all of a sudden you started enthusiastically expressing conservative views? Kinda like the undercover journalist who pretended to be a hooker.

He’d be treated the same way as would be a conservative who suddenly started expressing liberal views. Questions would be raised: Why the sudden change of heart? What’s the motivation? Is he sincere? The conservative-become-liberal and the liberal-become-conservative would be IMO rightly suspected of insincerity by those peers.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Romney kicked Obama’s behind. That is all.

There are two debates to go, and even if Romney wins them both, that doesn’t give him a 100% guaranteed ride into the White House. It may surprise a lot of folks on the Forum, but there are Americans who didn’t listen to the first debate, and who may not listen to the next two.

 

[_Abyssinia]

NBC’s Chuck Todd: Possible Shakeup In Chicago

Chuck Todd: Obama Campaign Can’t Seem to Stop Talking About Bad Debate

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Listen to NPR, same thing. I don’t listen to conservative talk radio. Too many commercials. And most of them don’t repeat anything new. It’s just talk, no news. I do listen to Catholic radio and NPR daily.

The difference is that NPR provides real news, albeit from a liberal POV. Conservative radio is just opinion - Limbaugh, Savage, Beck. Okay in their place, but don’t expect to hear solid news from them.

Plus, you have to admit, CAF provides plenty of news stories and invites interesting commentary.

LOL! You are subtle, Christine. “Interesting commentary” indeed.

 

[Elizabeth502]

That’s why I am still baffled at those who claim Obama campaigned as a Centrist.

I think that in ‘08 he did appear more Centrist, and deliberately so. (Therefore "campaigned as.’) More accurately, I believe, the phrase would be

• “avoided (in '08) Leftist social issues as much as possible, given Party affiliation.” *

He tended to introduce those issues far less often “in mixed company,” in an effort to appear Centrist and appeal to Independents and moderates. And when questioned directly by reporters (such as regarding homosexual “marriage”), he more often was noncommittal or vague.

Also, Lisa, compared to the expectations of the ultra-liberal/Left dominant lamestream media (NYT, MSNBC, etc.) he was in fact “Centrist.”

I don’t know about any “BS” meter but this latter (media) standard is hardly an accurate measurement tool for labeling, given their extreme biases/expectations.