US Presidential Election Debate #1

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Unfortunately, it won’t just effect Catholics. All the poor that are served by the Church will lose also. And then they’ll demonize the Church for closing not the liberal gov’t policies that forced the close
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I have the same questions, the same worries. I do know that doing nothing will not make these structural changes disappear. I also know that merely subsidizing those who cannot meet the challenges of a new economy (and eventually replacing their incomes entirely) is a cynical and limiting “response” to this, but it is the response that the Left continues to offer as a “solution.”

Limiting my own discussion of this only to the poor (framing this in social justice terms), I have always been unwilling to relegate the poor to government assistance or long-term subsidies. That is, the employable poor, the healthy poor, the non-aged poor. Now, not in the future, the poor in my region are utterly unprepared for a 21st century economy without robots. They are undereducated, under-skilled, under-trained, and generally lacking structures into which they can fit and reasonably prosper – i.e., be and stay independent. This is true of those born here, and even more so of those here illegally. The United States is not the country “paved with gold” of yore. Everybody, immigrant or not, legally here or not, does not automatically have an upward economic path merely by virtue of “opportunity.” If you are not educated, you have very few opportunites. If you are not literate (or refuse to become literate), you have very few opportunities. If your job skills have not advanced beyond the level of 30 years ago, those skills are now outdated.

The Cost of Living, in this First World country, demands an income reflecting current market demands and the readiness to deliver those demands.

Although I doubt that robots will replace all machinery “in 10-15 years,” there is no question that even more rapid automation and sophisticated technology is making an awful lot of manual labor obsolete.
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Yeah, I really don’t want to talk about all that. Talk to someone from the Philippines. If you ask them about the “poor” in this country, they’ll laugh in your face. Our “poor” wear Nikes and watch cable TV. Europe is similar–they have a social welfare system too and it’s even bigger than ours. (well they do til it collapses anyway).
 
katcecelia said:
Unfortunately, it won’t just effect Catholics. All the poor that are served by the Church will lose also. And then they’ll demonize the Church for closing not the liberal gov’t policies that forced the close
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Yes, this will happen. People outside the Church are going to think that we closed our things out of stubbornness. I’m not sure what the average Catholic is going to think. Honestly, I think it’s going to depend on what his priest tells him, if he ever sees his priest.

Only about 20% of “American Catholics” reliably show up for Mass on Sunday, the old ones being the most reliable of the lot.

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/FRStats/mattend.jpg
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I have the same questions, the same worries. I do know that doing nothing will not make these structural changes disappear. I also know that merely subsidizing those who cannot meet the challenges of a new economy (and eventually replacing their incomes entirely) is a cynical and limiting “response” to this, but it is the response that the Left continues to offer as a “solution.”

Limiting my own discussion of this only to the poor (framing this in social justice terms), I have always been unwilling to relegate the poor to government assistance or long-term subsidies. That is, the employable poor, the healthy poor, the non-aged poor. Now, not in the future, the poor in my region are utterly unprepared for a 21st century economy without robots. They are undereducated, under-skilled, under-trained, and generally lacking structures into which they can fit and reasonably prosper – i.e., be and stay independent. This is true of those born here, and even more so of those here illegally. The United States is not the country “paved with gold” of yore. Everybody, immigrant or not, legally here or not, does not automatically have an upward economic path merely by virtue of “opportunity.” If you are not educated, you have very few opportunites. If you are not literate (or refuse to become literate), you have very few opportunities. If your job skills have not advanced beyond the level of 30 years ago, those skills are now outdated.

The Cost of Living, in this First World country, demands an income reflecting current market demands and the readiness to deliver those demands.

Although I doubt that robots will replace all machinery “in 10-15 years,” there is no question that even more rapid automation and sophisticated technology is making an awful lot of manual labor obsolete.
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👍👍 like I said earlier… Get the gov’t out of it. They CANNOT solve a situation that they just reinforce
 
iloveangels said:
Yeah, I really don’t want to talk about all that. Talk to someone from the Philippines. If you ask them about the “poor” in this country, they’ll laugh in your face. Our “poor” wear Nikes and watch cable TV.
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Well I’m sorry you “don’t want to talk about it.” I was responding to another poster, who, i.m.o., thoughtfully introduced some deeper economic questions than the usual myopic questions and answers about 21st century poverty in the Frist World. I don’t think he was talking about the Philippines. He seemed to be discussing realistically how the failure to adjust to a new economic paradigm will affect not only the poor in the First World but the middle class as well.
 
katcecelia said:
👍👍 like I said earlier… Get the gov’t out of it. They CANNOT solve a situation that they just reinforce
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Yeah, I know. But that’s not the case that we have right now.

If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that you think that most people are just waiting to see what happens next, and that’s why I’m seeing nothing, yes??
 
iloveangels said:
Yes, this will happen. People outside the Church are going to think that we closed our things out of stubbornness. I’m not sure what the average Catholic is going to think. Honestly, I think it’s going to depend on what his priest tells him, if he ever sees his priest.

Only about 20% of “American Catholics” reliably show up for Mass on Sunday, the old ones being the most reliable of the lot.

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/FRStats/mattend.jpg
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It is beyond sad, especially since even those who are consistently attended do not all know what the Church teaches or why…
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Well I’m sorry you “don’t want to talk about it.” I was responding to another poster, who, i.m.o., thoughtfully introduced some deeper economic questions than the usual myopic questions and answers about 21st century poverty in the Frist World. I don’t think he was talking about the Philippines. He seemed to be discussing realistically how the failure to adjust to a new economic paradigm will affect not only the poor in the First World but the middle class as well.
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I"m sorry Elizabeth502. The whole poor me thing in the USA is a sore nerve with me. I didn’t mean to be sharp with you. I apologize.
 
I think most people put their faith in the political machine so yes
 
Yes, of course poverty is relative. However, in the US, the cost of living is generally higher than in third-world countries, with variations between rural regions and urban centers as well as geographical locations. Elizabeth has raised the important issue of how poor and uneducated people who live in THIS country can survive economically without the technological skills required.
 
meltzerboy said:
Yes, of course poverty is relative. However, in the US, the cost of living is generally higher than in third-world countries, with variations between rural and urban centers as well as geographical locations. Elizabeth has raised the important issue of how poor and uneducated people who live in THIS country can survive economically without the technological skills required.
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Hey, meltzerboy. You’re Jewish aren’t you? You have schools and hospitals that serve the general public too.

How seriously are Jews taking the Obamacare thing? Religious liberty etc. Do they think of it that way?

Do they plan to simply buy the insurance, or will they pay the fines or what??

How concerned do they seem to be from your vantage point?
 
iloveangels said:
I"m sorry Elizabeth502. The whole poor me thing in the USA is a sore nerve with me. I didn’t mean to be sharp with you. I apologize.
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I don’t know about poor “me.” I wasn’t referring to myself. I have some very current skills, and those skills are being used, thanks be to God. I’m talking about our obligations as Catholics to consider soical justice, and I’m saying that the poster epan has, i.m.o., some thoughtful views on the subject. He just merely goes beyond (correctly, in my view) the concerns of the poor, pointing out that an economy in which change is gaining momentum is an economy which can threaten the majority, not only a minority, and that economic vision, practical leadership, and cooperation from legislatures is essential to avoid further precipitous declines in the American economy.
 
iloveangels said:
Or is it that they don’t know, or don’t care? Or don’t think that either way anything is really going to happen?
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I think a combination, some don’t know, some know but don’t care, many don’t think it will really happen either way… because how could it happen in America? It is a lack of awareness of history, America’s included
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I don’t know about poor “me.” I wasn’t referring to myself. I have some very current skills, and those skills are being used, thanks be to God. I’m talking about our obligations as Catholics to consider soical justice, and I’m saying that the poster epan has, i.m.o., some thoughtful views on the subject. He just merely goes beyond (correctly, in my view) the concerns of the poor, pointing out that an economy in which change is gaining momentum is an economy which can threaten the majority, not only a minority, and that economic vision, practical leadership, and cooperation from legislatures is essential to avoid furhter precipitous declines in the American economy.
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Okay, fair enough. I’m still thinking, not about that, but about the religious liberty comment that Romney made and what it means to Catholics.
 
katcecelia said:
I think a combination, some don’t know, some know but don’t care, many don’t think it will really happen either way… because how could it happen in America? It is a lack of awareness of history, America’s included
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Thank you katcecelia. I think that’s good insight and I agree with you. And its an explanation for what I’m seeing. Not the only one, but certainly a very plausible one.
 
Being a member of the working poor myself… I refuse to accept gov’t assistance. I do not believe that others should prop me up. I’m with St. Paul… those who wish to eat must work. I have two disabilities, but I manage. I think, for the most part, the gov’t assistance only perpetuates the cycle of poverty.
 
iloveangels said:
Hey, meltzerboy. You’re Jewish aren’t you? You have schools and hospitals that serve the general public too.

How seriously are Jews taking the Obamacare thing? Do they plan to simply buy the insurance, or will they pay the fines or what??

How concerned do they seem to be from your vantage point?
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I certainly cannot speak for all Jews since they come in so many different sizes and shapes. Are you referring to yeshivas and Jewish hospitals regarding contraception? In Judaism, it’s more complicated since certain forms of contraception are allowed while others are not according to Orthodox Jewish practices. I don’t have first-hand information on how hospitals are handling this but I don’t believe it’s a major issue in the Jewish community at large. Based on my experience, the Jews I know are generally in favor of some parts of Obamacare, such as the provision for preexisting conditions and the Affordable Care Act. So is Romney, it appears, according to what he said in the debate.
 
meltzerboy said:
I certainly cannot speak for all Jews since they come in so many different sizes and shapes. Are you referring to yeshivas and Jewish hospitals regarding contraception? In Judaism, it’s more complicated since certain forms of contraception are allowed while others are not according to Orthodox Jewish practices. I don’t have first hand information on how hospitals are handling this but I don’t believe it’s a major issue in the Jewish community at large. Based on my experience, the Jews I know are generally in favor of some parts of Obamacare, such as the provision for preexisting conditions and the Affordable Care Act. So is Romney, it appears, according to what he said in the debate.
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Thank you, meltzerboy. Informative answer. Um, I’m actually in favor of some of the provisions, and think that something else should replace Obamacare as it is now. Particularly, I favor the provisions regarding pre-existing conditions, conditions in progress (breast cancer etc), and disabled children. But I believe that this should be structured as a fall-back program for those who can’t afford regular coverage on their own or through their employers.

Rather than having this oppressive mess they have, simple rules to keep eligible people from hopping in and out of the program to save money during periods of wellness would work just fine.
 
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