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Elaine_s_Cross
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But this argument misses the point. Government assurances simply are not good enough in a free society. The overwhelming burden always must be placed on government to justify any new encroachment on our liberty. Now that the emotions of September 11th have cooled, the American people are less willing to blindly accept terrorism as an excuse for expanding federal surveillance powers.
It impacts us in more ways than one can imagine. For instance, opening a new bank account is much more of a botheration than it used to be.
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shockerfan
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Elaine's Cross:
Perhaps there are things that I should be concerned about, but nobody has really verbalized them.
OK. So its more of a bother to set up a bank account. Is that all you can come up with?
Perhaps there are things that I should be concerned about, but nobody has really verbalized them.
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Elaine_s_Cross
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It’s what you don’t know that’s going on in the background that will eventually nail you. Read the Ron Paul archives at
www.lewrockwell.com
There is a wealth of info there.
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abcdefg
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*]Not backed up by sufficient evidence.
*]Phrased in such a way as to be unfalsifiable.
*]Improbably complex or lengthy.
a typical conspiracy theory
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smackdaddy
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the only way the PA has affected me personally is it’s much more difficult to move money. BUT Americans can now be held indefinately with out access to a lawer or without even being charged with a crime. It’s already happened. Who’s to say it won’t happen top YOU? It’s unbelievably how trusting many of you are in the government. Governments always, ALWAYS become more and more oppressive unless they are held in check. The gov. loves people who just say, “oh please, Mr. Government, just protect me from those evil terrorists and you can do whatever you want.” It’s pathetic. Our founding fathers are turning in there graves.
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Adonis33
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How many times has somebody been held indefinately without access to a lawyer?
Although I am concerned at how teh Patriot Act will be applied - I do not think it is the pariagh of legislation either.
Just exacly what do you expect the government to do to rotect us from terrorism? You seem real paranoid about the PA, but if we do get another terrorist attack - will you be the first to complain that the government did too little?
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Elaine_s_Cross
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I fear the power in Washington much more than that of the terrorists. If our foreign policy wouldn’t have been what it’s been since we started meddling in the Middle East in the 20th Century, terrorism would likely be a non-issue.
It’s time we take the plank out of our eye.
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shockerfan
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Elaine's Cross:
Also, I would suggest listing on a piece of paper the “horrible” things our government wants to do to you, and list all of the things Islamists want to do to you. Then tell me who you fear. Perhaps you should see for yourself the kinds of people we are dealing with. I won’t post the link due to the graphic nature of the video, but you can view the beheadings of hostages in Iraq on any one of a number of websites. Not very pretty. How about the constant homocide bombings…don’t you think that if given an opportunity, these lunatics would do that here if they could?
Hmmm…“meddling in the Middle East”. Perhaps we should let Israel get exterminated. Most of today’s issues trace back to our support of Israel. Is this what you support? Turning our backs on our allies?
Also, I would suggest listing on a piece of paper the “horrible” things our government wants to do to you, and list all of the things Islamists want to do to you. Then tell me who you fear. Perhaps you should see for yourself the kinds of people we are dealing with. I won’t post the link due to the graphic nature of the video, but you can view the beheadings of hostages in Iraq on any one of a number of websites. Not very pretty. How about the constant homocide bombings…don’t you think that if given an opportunity, these lunatics would do that here if they could?
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gnjsdad
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I don’t know what else to call it. In fact, ‘meddling’ may be putting it mildly.
This is a partial list of the 725 military installations the US Department of Defense maintains outside US territory. It’s taken from a document called *Base Structure Report 2002 *put out by the DOD. This is only a partial list of bases the US operates in the Middle East
***Afghanistan: ****Bagram Air Base; **Kandahar Air Base; *Khost Air Base
Bahrain: Bahrain US Naval Base; Muharraq Airfield;
***Egypt: *NAVMEDRSCHU Three Cairo US Naval Base
***Kuwait: *Camp Doha; Camp Udairi; Ahmed Al Jaber Air Base; Ali Al Salem Air Base;
***Oman: *Masirah Island MPT, Dhuwwah ; Seeb MPT; Thumrait, Salalah (all operated by US Air Force)
***Qatar: **Al Udeid Air Base; *
***Saudi Arabia: *Eskan Village Air Base; Riyadh Air Base; King Abdul Aziz Air Base, Dhahran; King Fahd Air Base; King Khalid Air Base;
***Turkey: *Batman Air Base; Cigli Air Base; Incirlik Air Base; Izmir Air Station; Karatas Radio Relay Site; Mus Air Base; Yumurtalik Petroleum Prod. Storage Annex;
***United Arab Emirates: *Al Dhafra Air Base;
This, again, is only a partial list. It doesn’t include the bases under construction in the so-called “stan” countries.
If you want to discuss whether U.S. meddling in the Middle East is a good or bad idea, I’d be all ears. But please don’t act shocked when someone merely brings up the fact.
The ‘poor lil’ ol’ Israel’ line get a bit tiresome when stories like this come up. Another Pentagon analyst arrested for spying for Israel. What’s infuriating is that this guy worked for Douglas Feith, one of the neocons who strongly pushed for the Iraq invasion.
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Elaine_s_Cross
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Over many years I can’t remember a single time hearing from a Roman Catholic pulpit that we need to go to war for Israel or provide them with a military umbrella, much less start a “preventive war” over WMD’s, real or imagined.
On the other hand, I have heard many Protestant ministers preach that it is our duty to defend Israel which coincides with Tim Lahaye-Hal Lindsey, end-times Protestant enthusiast thoughts.
Besides, with allies like the Israelis, who needs enemies?
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shockerfan
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shockerfan
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First of all, I was not “shocked” when the subject was brought up, I challenge the use of the term “meddling”, which according to my dictionary means “to concern oneself with or to take part in other people’s affairs without being asked or needed”.
The US has consistently fought for freedom around the globe…there are many free people due to our “meddling”.
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shockerfan
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Elaine's Cross:
So, in your opinion we should drop our support of Israel?
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Elaine_s_Cross
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I would think it should be more even-handed rather than the current state where if Mr Sharon would make a hard right turn it would break the president’s nose. Those that blindly support Israel at all cost such as Perle, Feith, Wolfowitz, et al should be removed from the administration. I would not consider Israel to be an ally nor would I consider us to have some Old Testament Biblical obligation to protect or defend them. Thus, we would have our everyday Christian obligation, but this should be done in an even-handed manner.
I do think that all foreign aid should be discontinued, not just to the Middle East, but to the entire world. We can donate to others in foreign countries through our churches and charities.
What Sadat, Begin, and Carter could accomplish, Bush and Sharon can undo and have done.
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shockerfan
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Elaine's Cross:
Do you think the Palestinians have no culpability? You want the US to be evenhanded…perpaps you should be too.
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Elaine_s_Cross
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I did not absolve the Palestinians of culpability. I merely stated that I perceived our govt’s role as not being even-handed. There is plenty enough faults to go around.
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gnjsdad
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But what if the people don’t want American style “freedom”? Should they be forced to accept it at gunpoint? Isn’t that a textbook example of meddling?
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shockerfan
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Forced to accept it at gunpoint?
I guess you’re right, people enjoyed being raped and tortured. We shouldn’t meddle. Next time I see a WW2 vet, I’ll tell him he shouldn’t have meddled in Europe either…
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gnjsdad
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If you want to have a civil conversation, don’t put words in my mouth ("I guess you’re right, people enjoyed being raped and tortured")
People are raped and tortured in this country. And it may come as a shock to you, but people are being raped, tortured, and killed in Iraq today. And we’re talking about American policy in the here and now in the Middle East, not 60 years ago.
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shockerfan
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What seems uncivil is the moral equivalence people try to draw between the US govt, and the former Iraqi govt. Please explain your comment “people are being raped and tortured in this country”. If you are referring to Abu Graib (sp?), I’ve seen college hazing that was worse (BTW, I’m not excusing it). I didn’t see any Abu Graib investigation reports that showed anything close to the atrocities committed by Saddam’s govt.
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