Use of Latin and the vernacular at Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter Resurrexit
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m not asking you to stop being Latin and become Eastern. I think it would take a lot more than a translation into the vernacular for the Latin Church to become Eastern. Because I cite an example from Bulgaria it does not mean that it automatically applies to an Eastern way of thinking. I would actually think that the issue of the vernacular is not an Eastern issue: or something permitted only for the East. If so, it definitely begs the question why? Greek in the East is as old as Latin in the West, no? We have the rulings of the Popes I quoted above, and why can Greek be translated by not Latin?
By the way, the Mass is not meant to be directly didactic, as you seem to think. It is the worship of God, not an overt catechism class.
“Beginning at Jerusalem: Five Reflections on the History of the Church”, by Glenn W. Olsen, Ignatius Press, 2004 discusses some of these liturgical misunderstandings.
Click to expand...
I am sorry I will be unable to read the book. Could you please elaborate on the issues- I will be very grateful.

I do not necessarily view the whole of the Mass as didactic or an overt catechism class. But I still think that the Epistle and Gospel are directed to the laity not to God. I’m ready to change my opinion but the interpretations put forward have not really made much sense to me.
 
Rykell said:
Folks,

I have been around these fora a long time, primarily as a lurker, occasionally as a poster. Over the many years of internet, the latin advocates have absorbed not a shred of information that posters submit. These just continue to begin new and everlasting threads to do more and more of the same:

http://bestsmileys.com/argue/1.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/argue/2.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/2.gif

“By this will all men know that you are NOT my disciples, that you have NOT love for one another.”

Time to shake the dust. [You know whom I mean]

To those who contribute worthy charitable discourse, I thank you! God bless your efforts!
Click to expand...
Talk about “Holier Than Thou”…
 
I will have to see if P. Ramm wrote an article about this.

It makes sense to me that the Latin is the more festive language than the vernacular and directed to God as is everything in the Mass. People don’t seem to realize that the Old Mass is not entirely in Latin. Don’t try to set up a false dichotomy here.
Americans don’t like learning foreign languages and are very provincial in that respect. But with the Mass everything is translated, so what is the problem?

My mother-in-law has a dislike for Latin even though she grew up with it. But then when one has been told to obey Father and Father says that the old way was bad and inferior, it is hard to not be swayed then to reject everything. Especially priests seem to have been affected by this breaking with tradition.

Olsen in “Beginning at Jerusalem: Five reflections on the History of the Church”, takes issue with Jungmann who assumed that the liturgy must be didactic. Liturgy does instruct , but not directly. The faithful must be instructed, but the purpose of liturgy is worship, not instruction. Liturgy involves symbolic actions. To be effective, symbols must be compelling. Liturgical symbols must generate a sense of the mysterious, ethereal, numinous and ultimately incomprehensible.

Yes, ‘fratres’ is sometimes, but not always, inserted at the beginning of Paul’s epistles. It is often found in the Biblical text itself.
Still, the Gospel and reading are read in the vernacular, so what is the problem? Jealous of God or something?

Cardinal Ratzinger himself celebrated a pontifical High Mass twice at least that I can recall. A friend sat on the aisle as he processed in at the one in Weimar. She reported him to have a huge smile on his face and to be very joyful to be celebrating the Old Mass. She happened to think right at that moment, my if he could only become Pope!
So those remarks he made then don’t seem to reflect what he thinks now. Especially that he ordered that at international gatherings most of the Mass or prayers are to be in Latin, not the vernacular.
A little bit of another language is not impossible for even the most uneducated to learn. My husband can testify to the language abilities of many cleaning ladies. Most of the rest of the world manages it because of a desire to communicate with others. Do Americans not wish to communicate with others except on their own turf, so to speak?
Turkish children in Germany start learning English and German in the first grade- two foreign languages at the same time! Americans are not incapable of learning a smattering of Latin.
People’s phobia about Latin is incomprehensible and irrational.
 
Leeta said:
I will have to see if P. Ramm wrote an article about this.

It makes sense to me that the Latin is the more festive language than the vernacular and directed to God as is everything in the Mass. People don’t seem to realize that the Old Mass is not entirely in Latin. Don’t try to set up a false dichotomy here.
Americans don’t like learning foreign languages and are very provincial in that respect. But with the Mass everything is translated, so what is the problem?

My mother-in-law has a dislike for Latin even though she grew up with it. But then when one has been told to obey Father and Father says that the old way was bad and inferior, it is hard to not be swayed then to reject everything. Especially priests seem to have been affected by this breaking with tradition.

Olsen in “Beginning at Jerusalem: Five reflections on the History of the Church”, takes issue with Jungmann who assumed that the liturgy must be didactic. Liturgy does instruct , but not directly. The faithful must be instructed, but the purpose of liturgy is worship, not instruction. Liturgy involves symbolic actions. To be effective, symbols must be compelling. Liturgical symbols must generate a sense of the mysterious, ethereal, numinous and ultimately incomprehensible.
Click to expand...
Agree to an extent, and I can see how this relates to say, the Canon, but how does this relate to the Epistle and Gospel specifically?
Yes, ‘fratres’ is sometimes, but not always, inserted at the beginning of Paul’s epistles. It is often found in the Biblical text itself.
Still, the Gospel and reading are read in the vernacular, so what is the problem? Jealous of God or something?
Click to expand...
Jealous? 😃 :rotfl:

‘Fratres’ or ‘Carisimmi’ is AFAIK always found at the starting of the apostolic lection in the Traditional Mass even though it is not in the original text itself. Could you please point me to a place where it is not?

Is it suitable to read them in Latin? The reason given is that it is directed to God. But I don’t see how.

I’m a little puzzled by your reference that the TLM is not entirely in Latin. Except for the Kyrie, I thoguht it was. The vernacular readings are ‘extras’ added but not mandated by the rubrics themselves. Atleeast, in the 1950’s there was all sorts fo permission for the vernacular but they don’t exist in Traditional communities now.
Cardinal Ratzinger himself celebrated a pontifical High Mass twice at least that I can recall. A friend sat on the aisle as he processed in at the one in Weimar. She reported him to have a huge smile on his face and to be very joyful to be celebrating the Old Mass. She happened to think right at that moment, my if he could only become Pope!
So those remarks he made then don’t seem to reflect what he thinks now. Especially that he ordered that at international gatherings most of the Mass or prayers are to be in Latin, not the vernacular.
A little bit of another language is not impossible for even the most uneducated to learn. My husband can testify to the language abilities of many cleaning ladies. Most of the rest of the world manages it because of a desire to communicate with others. Do Americans not wish to communicate with others except on their own turf, so to speak?
Turkish children in Germany start learning English and German in the first grade- two foreign languages at the same time! Americans are not incapable of learning a smattering of Latin.
People’s phobia about Latin is incomprehensible and irrational.
Click to expand...
I’m not American and my mother tongue isn’t English.It is fine when it comes to learning Latin for the Ordinary. But the propers are different. It goes back to that question of whom the Epistle and Gospel are directed to, doesn’t it?
 
Today, we had a visiting Priest from Chile. I don’t think he speaks but a little English. Didn’t mattter, the Mass was said in Latin and we all got along just fine, even the two ladies we have at our parish from the Phillipines. It doesn’t get much easier than that.
 
Walking_Home said:
Heretics exists----and we do them no favors by watering down the truth of our Faith. If we ourselves do not speak in a manner that reflects our true belief in our Church—then we cannot offer anyone the truth.
Click to expand...
Pax tecum!

I never said anything about “watering down the truths of our Faith”. I didn’t even imply that. What I said was that by calling them heretics all we will do is push them further away. Take the example of my best friend, who is Lutheran. We will have theological discussions and I will explain Catholic doctrine to him, such as Purgatory. I don’t water it down and I don’t give him the impression that it’s ok not to believe in it. But at the same time I don’t just call him a heretic and say, “Well, if you don’t believe this you’re a heretic and that’s that.” I will explain it to him, he’ll ask questions, I’ll ask him questions, and we’ll have a dialogue. Not a one-sided argument of me pushing Catholic doctrine on him. That doesn’t work, and if you think it does then you’ve never seriously talked with a Protestant before.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Pax vobiscum!

I’d like to point out AGAIN (and I think this is like the third time I have done so in this particular thread), that no one is trying to argue that Latin should not be used in the Mass. So people like Caesar, TraddyDaddy, and Alex are all creating strawmen. I believe that Latin SHOULD be used in the Mass. However, I do not think (and this is what I have actually been arguing) that the vernacular makes it less of a Mass somehow. That is my whole point. The readings are directed to the people, to instruct them in God’s revelation, so they should be done in the language the people understand. The prayers of the Mass are directed to God to worship Him, so it doesn’t matter what language they are done in, since God understands all languages. I prefer most of the prayers of the Mass to be in Latin.

I am curious how the TLM-onlyists feel about liturgies such as the Dominican Rite, where there are no prayers at the foot of the altar. Or the Sarum Rite, where Psalm 42 is recited in the sacristy before Mass and is not part of the Mass. The Sarum Rite and Dominican Rite also have abbreviated Confiteors compared to the Tridentine.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
Pax tecum!

I never said anything about “watering down the truths of our Faith”. I didn’t even imply that. What I said was that by calling them heretics all we will do is push them further away. Take the example of my best friend, who is Lutheran. We will have theological discussions and I will explain Catholic doctrine to him, such as Purgatory. I don’t water it down and I don’t give him the impression that it’s ok not to believe in it. But at the same time I don’t just call him a heretic and say, “Well, if you don’t believe this you’re a heretic and that’s that.” I will explain it to him, he’ll ask questions, I’ll ask him questions, and we’ll have a dialogue. Not a one-sided argument of me pushing Catholic doctrine on him. That doesn’t work, and if you think it does then you’ve never seriously talked with a Protestant before.

In Christ,
Rand
Click to expand...
I have quite a few of them in my own family–and I speak to one or another on a daily basis. They have no qualms in informing me about the state of my own salvation since I am Catholic and have not “opened” my eyes to the falsehood of my Faith. So yes—I am familiar with speaking to protestants and that “let me not offend them” approach has led to them still being protestants.
 
I wonder how often the Saints who had to fight against heresies through the ages lost sleep worrying about whether they would “offend” someone?
 
TradyDaddy said:
I wonder how often the Saints who had to fight against heresies through the ages lost sleep worrying about whether they would “offend” someone?
Click to expand...
Actually, unless they were in direct communication with Our Lord, I’m sure some lost a lot of sleep wondering if they were doing things their way or God’s way especially if they offended someone even though they were right.
 
bear06 said:
Actually, unless they were in direct communication with Our Lord, I’m sure some lost a lot of sleep wondering if they were doing things their way or God’s way especially if they offended someone even though they were right.
Click to expand...
So then bear06—you were there—to know that they lost lots of sleep or are you in direct communication with these past saints to know this.
 
Walking_Home said:
So then bear06—you were there—to know that they lost lots of sleep or are you in direct communication with these past saints to know this.
Click to expand...
In reading the lives of various saints, some were quite worried about whether they were doing God’s will or interjecting their own will. Their humility was great and many of them said they suffered from scupulosity, no? Why such a hostile tone? It was a simple reply that had really nothing to do with the Latin and vernacular death match that’s going on.
 
It would appear for the present that the subject: Use of Latin and the vernacular at Mass is concluded. Thread closed. Thanks to all who participated on topic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top