VA Tech Shooting: What can we possibly do?

[Biblioassistant]

Universities hate bad publicity even if it’s stupid publicity. Where I work, we had a fraternity banned over…well let’s just say it involved a goat and leave it at that.

 

[seekerz]

What part of, “The killer was armed, but his victims were not” did you not understand?
.

I understand that carrying a gun on my person cannot prevent me from being blown up or exposed to some noxious substance.

Sorry, but I don’t think guns are the issue at all, they just happen to be the convenient weapon of choice for some perpetrators right now. Guns don’t create the problem and guns can’t solve them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I understand that carrying a gun on my person cannot prevent me from being blown up or exposed to some noxious substance.

Were you under the impression that the victims at Virgoinia Tech were killed by “being blown up or exposed to some noxious substance?”

Sorry, but I don’t think guns are the issue at all, they just happen to be the convenient weapon of choice for some perpetrators right now. Guns don’t create the problem and guns can’t solve them.

Let each person make his own decision to carry or not. If that had been the rule, someone amongst the more than 50 victims would surely have been able to return fire.

 

[john1863]

Let each person make his own decision to carry or not. If that had been the rule, someone amongst the more than 50 victims would surely have been able to return fire.

Well put Vern,

John

 

[seekerz]

Were you under the impression that the victims at Virgoinia Tech were killed by “being blown up or exposed to some noxious substance?”

Let each person make his own decision to carry or not. If that had been the rule, someone amongst the more than 50 victims would surely have been able to return fire.

Oh Vern, I love doing this back and forth with you sometimes but you really should read all I say. My point (which you quoted) was with regard to preventing future incidents: if someone is determined they’ll find a way - any way - to achieve their ends.

Why wait for a situation to develop then try to deal with it? Why not try to find a way to prevent people from even getting to the stage that they’d consider doing something like this?

One of my main complaints is that some of those incidents are reported (e.g a workplace shooting last week sometime), we hear of the carnage, then the story disappears. We hardly ever get to hear the real story as to what led up to this. In the Va Tech case, we are hearing but not from anyone who really knew this guy on a personal level. While that may be hard for his family and friends, that’s exactly the kind of exchange which could help us develop better “red flags” and come up with better strategies that could help prevent future tragedies.

 

[Tom317]

I wonder. If a person like the VA killer, or a Hitler, or a Stalin, etc…if they truly in their heart believed in hell and in satans (along with demons)…I wonder if those things would ever happen.

 

[Rebecca_New]

As a history buff, I have always been amazed that the first thing the nazi regime did was remove personal arms. We can have marshalls on airplanes, why not on campus. And how about screening the students. Why does a profile like this terrorist get ignored by administration?

 

[seekerz]

I wonder. If a person like the VA killer, or a Hitler, or a Stalin, etc…if they truly in their heart believed in hell and in satans (along with demons)…I wonder if those things would ever happen.

I think we have to be careful grouping people like Hitler or Stalin with this obviously troubled (probably mentally ill) young man. Someone on a TV show last night called him sick and evil in the same sentence. I don’t know what Church teaching applies, but it seems to me that mentally ill is not the same as evil. Having had close contact with mentally ill people, I’d rather err on the side of charity.

That goes for Rebecca New’s post too. Name-calling gets us nowhere. Let’s remember the Amish response some months ago…

 

[Sir_Knight]

Arm the faculty - Not without extensive training and psychological work-up like the police get. We’re assuming that pyschopaths only exist among the student population…

If “pyschopaths” wishes to hurt someone, they will do so whether a firearm is allowed or not.

Allow concealed weapons: Not without the training outlined above. Just look at the chaos/false alarms that’s happened at many schools since this incident. How many more deaths from “panic” shooting would we have had if loads of people out there were packing weapons.

“Extensive training and psychological work-up” is NOT required. To be licensed in Florida to carry a concealed weapon, a person must attend a 2-hour safety course. I know because I have a license from Florida to carry a concealed firearm. According to the Florida Department of Justice, crime rates involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of carry permit holders since Florida’s right-to-carry law started in 1989 – significantly less than the crime rate among non-permit holders. According to the Texas Department of Corrections gun owners with carry permits are about 7.6 times LESS likely to
be arrested of a violent crime.

Sorry, but I remain unconvinced. It’s one thing to have a gun in your home to protect against robbers

According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 77% of all violent crime occurs in public places away from. Shouldn’t folks be armed in places where it is more likely that they will face danger?

or one in your bag to protect against muggers and carrying a gun into a situation such as happened at Va Tech. Sorry, but I remain unconvinced. Would they wait till someone started shooting or would they shoot first? How would they assess the threat? What measures would they take to minimize injury to panicked people running around in the same room with the victim? Lastly, can all of this be taught to a teenager/professor in one day?

A similar situation to the one that happened at Virginia Tech occurred on January 16th, 2002 at Appalachian Law School in Grundy, Virginia. A disgruntled former student began a similar shooting spree. The difference in this case was that the attack was stopped by three individuals, two of whom were legally armed with handguns. Unfortunately, the attack was not stopped until three people had been killed and three more wounded. Why did it take so long to stop the attack? The good guys had to retrieve their guns from their parked cars before they could confront the gunman because ALS was a gun-free zone.

 

[Tom317]

I think we have to be careful grouping people like Hitler or Stalin with this obviously troubled (probably mentally ill) young man. Someone on a TV show last night called him sick and evil in the same sentence. I don’t know what Church teaching applies, but it seems to me that mentally ill is not the same as evil. Having had close contact with mentally ill people, I’d rather err on the side of charity.

That goes for Rebecca New’s post too. Name-calling gets us nowhere. Let’s remember the Amish response some months ago…

I can pray for his soul, and ask God to forgive him. Yet, I will not join on the side of charity in terms of what he did. Murdering 32 people is an evil act, no matter whether he was sick or not.

IMO, we live in a time in which people do not want to acknowledge that satan, hell and evil exists and impacts our lives and all peoples lives every single day. We are in a spiritual war and it is always wise to see the war for what it is.

Hitler was evil, so was Stalin and so was the VA killer, and does society no good to pretend he was not. There is not fixing evil, there is only Christ to help us defeat it.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I think we have to be careful grouping people like Hitler or Stalin with this obviously troubled (probably mentally ill) young man. Someone on a TV show last night called him sick and evil in the same sentence. I don’t know what Church teaching applies, but it seems to me that mentally ill is not the same as evil. Having had close contact with mentally ill people, I’d rather err on the side of charity.

Hitler was mentally ill. If he wasn’t, he would have never attacked Russia and we would all be speaking German right now because with Russia fighting on his side, the Nazis would have developed the atom bomb first and with their U2 rockets to carry it, they would have won the war.

 

[seekerz]

There has to be a difference between people who freely choose to do evil and one who does so because his mental processes are messed up; it’s just commonsense.

I believe in hell and judgement and all of that. I believe people can do evil things but that Jesus can “fix” all people. I have no knowledge of the killer’s state of heart (repentance or not) at the last moments of his life so I choose not to call him evil.

 

[Cat]

I have read that Cho wrote violent screenplays (link posted in another thread on CAF), and that his teacher reported him to the university administration and asked that he be referred for counselling.

BUT NO ONE COULD FORCE HIM TO GET HELP!

I can see this. It could become a violation of civil rights and personal privacy if people were required to receive psychological intervention for displaying “violent tendencies.” What exactly does “violent tendencies” mean? I know people who are afraid of people with loud voices. (It happened at my workplace; a woman with a loud voice was written up by someone who disliked loud voices.)

HOWEVER–

My favorite actor was kicked out of his college in his freshman year for bullying and fighting.

Isn’t violent writing “fighting with words?” If schools can kick someone out for violent actions like fighting, couldn’t they also kick someone out for violent words?

 

[Tom317]

There has to be a difference between people who freely choose to do evil and one who does so because his mental processes are messed up; it’s just commonsense.

I believe in hell and judgement and all of that. I believe people can do evil things but that Jesus can “fix” all people. I have no knowledge of the killer’s state of heart (repentance or not) at the last moments of his life so I choose not to call him evil.

Killing 32 people in a very premeditated plan is not enough for you? Recognizing evil is not the same as judging souls. Too many people think we are never to judge people, that is wrong. We are always to judge the actions of others, while keeping our mind on the fact that we sin too. However, we are never to place a judgment on a person’s soul, for that belongs to God alone.

If we cannot judge, then murder should be okay.

 

[Cat]

As for locking doors to classrooms, yes, if the killer locks himself in with that class, they’re dead. Of course.

But at least the killer can’t wander from classroom to classroom killing more people.

Containing a killer, containing any evil, is sensible.

 

[Cat]

So it only takes an hour to get trained to use a gun?

I think you are underestimating the psychology.

Perhaps you see a gun as strictly a useful machine. You are not attaching any emotional baggage to it.

For many of us who haven’t been brought up with weapons, especially pistols, there is a whole lot more to it than that. There are ethical issues: could I actually use this gun to kill someone? Do I have the strength, the courage, the guts?

I don’t know if I could. Perhaps if it were my children being threatened. Even then, I would be so afraid of jumping to conclusions and killing an innocent person.

I’m sorry, it’s not that simple, sir or ma’am.

I do agree that those who choose to carry a gun should be free to do that. I don’t think I would choose to carry a gun.

 

[seekerz]

Killing 32 people in a very premeditated plan is not enough for you? Recognizing evil is not the same as judging souls. Too many people think we are never to judge people, that is wrong. We are always to judge the actions of others, while keeping our mind on the fact that we sin too. However, we are never to place a judgment on a person’s soul, for that belongs to God alone.

If we cannot judge, then murder should be okay.

Exactly, we are allowed to judge actions (whether right or wrong); not people because we can’t see inside their hearts or brains. Which is why I choose not to call the killer evil.

As a point of information, mental illness doesn’t mean someone cannot plan (often they are intelligent people) but it may impair their ability to tell right from wrong and/or to control their inclinations.

 

[Tom317]

Exactly, we are allowed to judge actions (whether right or wrong); not people because we can’t see inside their hearts or brains. Which is why I choose not to call the killer evil.

As a point of information, mental illness doesn’t mean someone cannot plan (often they are intelligent people) but it may impair their ability to tell right from wrong and/or to control their inclinations.

Anyone is capable of evil acts. yet premeditation makes this person evil at his heart. Now, I pray and hope at the very last second, he repented and was saved. Yet, there are evil people and we know them by WHAT THEY DO. Hitler was evil because he chose to do evil acts without any ceasing and without any repentance. Stalin was the same and so was this VA killer.

Sorry, but I just flat think you are wrong. Evil exists, people fall prey to evil every single day…it is sad, it is spiritually devastating, yet it is also true. We need, imo, to stop acting like hell and satan are benign possibilities…we need to teach, and propogate the truth that hell and satan and his demons are all too real. We live in a world that does not want fire and brimstone teachings…too bad, that is reality and the VA kiuller proved the need for it.

 

[seekerz]

Anyone is capable of evil acts. yet premeditation makes this person evil at his heart. Now, I pray and hope at the very last second, he repented and was saved. Yet, there are evil people and we know them by WHAT THEY DO. Hitler was evil because he chose to do evil acts without any ceasing and without any repentance. Stalin was the same and so was this VA killer.

Sorry, but I just flat think you are wrong. Evil exists, people fall prey to evil every single day…it is sad, it is spiritually devastating, yet it is also true. We need, imo, to stop acting like hell and satan are benign possibilities…we need to teach, and propogate the truth that hell and satan and his demons are all too real. We live in a world that does not want fire and brimstone teachings…too bad, that is reality and the VA kiuller proved the need for it.

Evil does exist that’s not even an argument here; but only God can see the heart so only He knows who’s good and who’s evil. I can only know what’s good and what’s evil. There is a difference…

In certain sections of our cathechism we see that culpability for certain sins is diminished based on certain circumstances/characteristics of the sinner. Why would that be if doing evil automatically made someone an evil person?

 

[Cat]

What can we possibly do?

If you study the profiles of the mass murderers (school and workplace shooters, not serial killers), they almost always share two common traits:

1. They were bullied and/or made fun of for a long time.
2. They suffered from depression or some other mental illness.

So it seems to me that since these traits are present in every school/workplace killer, we need to start with those two things and do something about them.

1. Take a hard stand against bullies in our schools from a very young age. All too often, teachers step back, stay out of the way, and encourage peer mediation" to work out the conflicts. This is nonsense. This is no way to deal with bullies.

Bullies need to be STOPPED by someone stronger than them. Teachers and others who work with children should NOT allow any bullying, and bullies should be REMOVED and relocated somewhere and dealt with firmly.

In my opinion, bullies are not killers themselves, but they bear the guilt for creating killers. It is never the bully who becomes a school killer, it is the bully’s VICTIM who kills in retaliation for all the humiliation of many years.

It is very hard–and I know from personal experience–to be made fun of day after day. Well-meaning adults try to teach children to “be proud of who you are” and "you’re special (even if you’re ugly or fat or poor or stupid or not athetic or nerdy).

This kind of “Self Esteem Training” doesn’t work. A skillful bully can totally dismantle the self-esteem of the most well-adjusted child.

Ladies, how many times have you been walking down the street, feeling good about yourself, and all of a sudden, some jerk yells out his car window, “WOOF WOOF!”

A little dog bark, and you feel like the ugliest woman on earth. Most of us shrug it off, but if it keeps happening day after day after day, and you can’t fix whatever it is in you that is causing men to say this about you, then you have been reduced to a pile of poop.

Names HURT TERRIBLY! Developing a thicker skin isn’t the answer. STOPPING THE BULLY is the answer.

And yes, I do think the bully needs to be dealt with in such a way as to re-train him/her not to be a bully. I’m not saying that they should be put in a chicken shack and beaten twice a day. My point is that we need to stop bullies BEFORE they create killers.

1. Pediatricians need to screen children for mental and emotional illnesses. Even many poor children in the U.S. receive examinations from doctors. From the very youngest agest, pediatricians and other medical personnel need to look for signs of depression and other disorders and recommend courses of treatment for these children.

I realize that mental and emotional illness in children is not well-researched. Well, it should be. We’ve seen too many “disturbed” children killing other children. It’s time that we tried to help those who are mentally ill rather than waiting until they blow up.

**I think it’s possible that those who become school and work killers were possibly bullied, but because of their mental/emotional illness, were unable to process that bullying and deal with it in a healthy way. So in my opinion, screening for mental illness goes hand in hand with stopping bullies. **