VA Tech Shooting: What can we possibly do?

[2shelbys]

Sorry, but I remain unconvinced. It’s one thing to have a gun in your home to protect against robbers or one in your bag to protect against muggers and carrying a gun into a situation such as happened at Va Tech. Would they wait till someone started shooting or would they shoot first? How would they assess the threat? What measures would they take to minimize injury to panicked people running around in the same room with the victim? Lastly, can all of this be taught to a teenager/professor in one day?

This guy was not just mentally ill but intelligent, something which those who advocate allowing concealed weapons on campus are overlooking. I just heard someone say on TV that the only thing that can stop a determined killer is a loaded gun. I beg to disagree. A determined intelligent killer would find a different weapon if he knew his potential victims were likely carrying guns. We have to find a way to screen for potential killers and get them the help that commonsense dictates.

I am totally convinced. Almost immediately after the Columbine shootings there was s similar event in Alabama that was not covered at all by the press because it did not fit their agenda. A student entered a school armed and intending to kill and he was stopped by a Vice Principal who had the good sense to ignore the rules prohibiting guns on school property and kept a shotgun in his office. As soon as he heard of the armed student he confronted him and the potential disaster was averted with no one injured. Having the good guys armed is the only way to prevent or quickly terminate such disasters.

 

[2shelbys]

What if the 70-year old has arthritis and can’t pull a trigger? By the expectation that everyone will carry guns, it’s much more likely that 20-year old will be carrying one, putting the 70-year old in more danger.

Just like we shouldn’t be discriminated against by gender or skin colour or religion, we shouldn’t start discriminating against people who can’t use guns for whatever reason, and building a society where the expectation is that people carry guns does strongly discriminate against people incapable of doing so.

Mike

So we should make sure that everyone is equally unprotected and endangered just to be sure we are politically correct? This is more of the same thinking that has resulted in this kind of disaster.

 

[2shelbys]

50 gun deaths compared to 30,000. They’ll catch up to us…oh wait, they won’t.

There is another comparison. An average of 1.5 million crimes foiled by armed private citizens each year compared to zero. They will not catch up to that one either. Also, your “30,000” is roughly twice the true number of yearly gun-related deaths and the majority of those deaths are of criminals shot by other criminals, police, or intended victims.

 

[Sir_Knight]

That’s lovely. However, I’m not sure right now is the time for ‘academics’ in the USA to be telling us over here what to do about gun crime, if you catch my drift. Maybe some week when you haven’t just had a guy go nuts and slaughter 32 people with readily-available guns, eh?

The point was that guns were illegal in your country and yet this gun crime still happened showing that the only folks that obey gun laws are law-abidding citizens who are not the problem in the first place.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I thought you didn’t need a background check in VT, just an immediate id-style check, like when buying a mobile phone?

You need a background check in ALL 50 states – even when buying at a gun show.

In any event, if we’re saying that we all need guns to protect ourselves, then what about the poor mentally ill? Of course you don’t want mentally ill people carrying guns around, but how are they supposed to protect themselves? Or reformed criminals? Or children? Or people who don’t feel they can wield a gun, for whatever reason?

It is the duty of adults to protect their children from harm. As a matter of fact, as Catholics, we all have a GRAVE DUTY to protect other innocent individuals from harm.

And when ALL people are allowed to carry a firearm, then even those that do not carry a gun will benefit because an attacker will not know who is armed and who isn’t. This very thing happened in Florida when they allowed people to carry concealed weapons. Violent attacks dropped significantly because the attackers didn’t know who was and who wasn’t armed and they were afraid of confronting an armed victim.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So I guess I’ll be one of the ones shot if I’m ever in a massacre. Oh, well. At least they say that rapists don’t bother fat chicks.

Are you aware that as a Catholic, you have a GRAVE DUTY to protect yourself and other innocent individuals from death and serious injury?

If you don’t plan on using a gun, that is your choice but how do you plan to fulfill your GRAVE DUTY as a Catholic to protect yourself and other innocent individuals from death and serious injury?

You don’t have to answer here, but I offer this for you to think about.

 

[jman507]

So will the war on guns be as successful as the war on drugs?

 

[seekerz]

Are you aware that as a Catholic, you have a GRAVE DUTY to protect yourself and other innocent individuals from death and serious injury?

If you don’t plan on using a gun, that is your choice but how do you plan to fulfill your GRAVE DUTY as a Catholic to protect yourself and other innocent individuals from death and serious injury?

You don’t have to answer here, but I offer this for you to think about.

Does the Church specify whether that duty has to be fulfilled with a weapon? As far as I know there is no greater protection than the power of prayer, especially (for me) the rosary.

Maybe I missed something here, but didn’t crime exist in the time of Jesus? What did He tell us about the sword? I’m just glad Peter didn’t have a gun back then! A short term solution then might have created eternal problems for us all.

 

[Sir_Knight]

And that one is easy, they are being prevented by gun carrying civilians.

That’s the MAIN factor. Time and time again when a state allows it’s citizens to carry concealed weapons, their violent crime rate drops significantly. What other reason would you attribute to that?

Note that the victim didn’t have to actually pull the trigger. A violent ex-boyfriend leaves because dad comes down with the shotgun.

So would it be better if he beat her up the first time and beat up the elderly father as well?

While knowing that there is a gun in the house may prevent him from returning.

A elderly lady scares off a mugger when she pulls her .380.

While that certainly CAN happen, the reality is that more lives are saved than are lost due to the private ownership of handguns.

A mom with a 9mm holds off an intruder until police arrive.

If he returns with a gun, they are still on level playing field. If both are unarmed, chances are that he will be bigger and stronger, placing the mom at a disadvantage.

 

[jman507]

Does the Church specify whether that duty has to be fulfilled with a weapon? As far as I know there is no greater protection than the power of prayer, especially (for me) the rosary.

Maybe I missed something here, but didn’t crime exist in the time of Jesus? What did He tell us about the sword? I’m just glad Peter didn’t have a gun back then! A short term solution then might have created eternal problems for us all.

I pray, and I’d still would like the police to have a weapon. Not every where is that close to the police so weapons will be needed for them too. That might be a call for me too. Leponto put to use both the rosery and the navy.

 

[seekerz]

I pray, and I’d still would like the police to have a weapon. Not every where is that close to the police so weapons will be needed for them too. That might be a call for me too. Leponto put to use both the rosery and the navy.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m all for responsible, well-trained and psychologically screened individuals having guns to protect us. Anything less, I would think irresponsible. It’s the idea of everyone being his own army that frightens me.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Does the Church specify whether that duty has to be fulfilled with a weapon?

No, but a GRAVE duty should be performed with the BEST means available and in MOST cases (not all but most) that would be with a gun.

As far as I know there is no greater protection than the power of prayer, especially (for me) the rosary.

Is that why the Pope, who has a deep devotion to the rosary, also has ARMED bodyguard protecting him?

Maybe I missed something here, but didn’t crime exist in the time of Jesus?

Sure did. Crime existed with us since Cain killed Abel and no generation has yet be able to overcome it.

What did He tell us about the sword?

Jesus told us that we should go out and BUY one if we did not already have one even if we had to sell our outer garments to do so. This is from Someone who was a strong supporter of the poor. Yet, He did not tell us to use the money from the sale of our outer garment to provide for the poor but to buy a WEAPON. The sword of Jesus’s time is the equivalent of what a gun is today.

I’m just glad Peter didn’t have a gun back then! A short term solution then might have created eternal problems for us all.

Why? Do you think that Jesus couldn’t have healed a gunshot injury in the same manner that He healed a sword injury?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Does the Church specify whether that duty has to be fulfilled with a weapon?

It say it has to be fulfilled. If you have a job to do, you need the appropriate tool.

As far as I know there is no greater protection than the power of prayer, especially (for me) the rosary.

A lot of Catholics died in the gas chambers at Auschwitz while saying the rosary. It may be good for the soul, but it doesn’t protect you from physical death.

Maybe I missed something here, but didn’t crime exist in the time of Jesus? What did He tell us about the sword? I’m just glad Peter didn’t have a gun back then! A short term solution then might have created eternal problems for us all.

Luke, 22, 35-36

35 He said to them, “When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.
36 He said to them, "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Vern, your replies mirror mine apparently great minds think alike

Don’t get me wrong; I’m all for responsible, well-trained and psychologically screened individuals having guns to protect us. Anything less, I would think irresponsible. It’s the idea of everyone being his own army that frightens me.

The students & teachers at VT relied on the police to protect themselves. Didn’t work out too well, did it?

Also, did you know that the US Supreme Court ruled that the police do NOT have a duty to protect us – their duty is to protect society as a whole and not individual members.

 

[MikeWM]

Does the Church specify whether that duty has to be fulfilled with a weapon?

Certainly not necessarily with a gun.

The USCCB has this to say

we believe that in the long run and with few exceptions (i.e., police officers, military use), handguns should be eliminated from our society. “Furthermore, the widespread use of handguns and automatic weapons in connection with drug commerce reinforces our repeated ‘call for effective and courageous action to control handguns, leading to their eventual elimination from our society.’”

(emphasis mine)

usccb.org/sdwp/criminal.htm

But what do the Bishops know?

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

That’s the MAIN factor. Time and time again when a state allows it’s citizens to carry concealed weapons, their violent crime rate drops significantly. What other reason would you attribute to that?

There’s all manner of possible factors. We all know that correlation doesn’t imply direct causation. The factors that lead the state to allow concealed carry may well be something to do with it, for example (eg. crime had reached a natural high point which led to people demanding better protection, but it was going to fall anyway).

So would it be better if he beat her up the first time and beat up the elderly father as well?

While knowing that there is a gun in the house may prevent him from returning.

While that certainly CAN happen, the reality is that more lives are saved than are lost due to the private ownership of handguns.

If he returns with a gun, they are still on level playing field. If both are unarmed, chances are that he will be bigger and stronger, placing the mom at a disadvantage.

My point was that having a gun isn’t a magic solution to these problems. There are many ways each of these scenarios could go with a gun, and many ways without a gun. Not all the gun scenarios are better than all the non-gun scenarios. Guns aren’t, if you’ll excuse the term, a magic bullet.

Mike

 

[seekerz]

No, but a GRAVE duty should be performed with the BEST means available and in MOST cases (not all but most) that would be with a gun.

Is that why the Pope, who has a deep devotion to the rosary, also has ARMED bodyguard protecting him?

Sure did. Crime existed with us since Cain killed Abel and no generation has yet be able to overcome it.

Jesus told us that we should go out and BUY one if we did not already have one even if we had to sell our outer garments to do so. This is from Someone who was a strong supporter of the poor. Yet, He did not tell us to use the money from the sale of our outer garment to provide for the poor but to buy a WEAPON. The sword of Jesus’s time is the equivalent of what a gun is today.

Why? Do you think that Jesus couldn’t have healed a gunshot injury in the same manner that He healed a sword injury?

It’s your opinon that a gun’s in the best means possible. Show me where the Church teaches that.

The Pope is protected by people who I am sure are trained, screened and well-qualified to carry weapons. When He travels, he doesn’t ask people in the crowd to carry a weapon just in case.

The Lord also said that those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. I don’t think it meant that use of force is never justified, just that violence is not the answer to life’s problems.

Of course Jesus could have healed a gunshot wound; I just wonder whether those who arrested Him would have been brave enough to even approach, considering their manifest cowardice of confronting Him at night.

 

[M-Dent]

Are you aware that as a Catholic, you have a GRAVE DUTY to protect yourself and other innocent individuals from death and serious injury?

Thus why we should all have some training in personal protection. And to train our children basics of self protection.

In this incident, teachers trained with Non-Lethal weapons may have saved many lives. The absolute senseless part of this all is that no one had and skills or training to react for self protection.

 

[seekerz]

As for the Rosary (i.e. our Blessed Mother’s intercession) not protecting from physical death, I could give my own experiences but what do those matter? Ask JPII (God rest his soul) about that…

 

[MikeWM]

You need a background check in ALL 50 states – even when buying at a gun show.

True, I phrased that badly. I know they do a check to some degree, but my point was some states do detailed background investigations, whereas as far as I can tell VA just do a quick check for criminal records.

It is the duty of adults to protect their children from harm. As a matter of fact, as Catholics, we all have a GRAVE DUTY to protect other innocent individuals from harm.

I know we’ve been here before, but don’t you think the Bishops know that? Why do they call for the elimination of handguns except for the police and military, if they don’t believe there are other ways of doing it?

MIke