Vatican adds 7 new mortal sins

[RebeccaJ]

Social injustice: sounds pretty much the same as ‘social inequality’.

Such is the translation problems of google. The official English version will hopefully be clearer.

This interview isn’t presenting anything new. The Vatican has been saying these things for years.

 

[PaulDupre]

This whole argument is nonsense. Did anyone actually read the article? In part, it says:

Vatican officials stressed that Girotti’s comments broke no new ground on what constitutes sin.

Giotti’s comments are just an enumeration of “new” ways to commit old sins. These new methods are occasioned by new technologies and the new “global market”, among other things. All of these things - the killing of innocents, rich people who will not share with the poor (think the Rich Man and Lazarus), poor stewardship over God’s creation and all of the other sins discussed have always been with us and are described in the bible.

The news media is largely composed of ignorant fools.

Paul

 

[mchale]

well now, that makes sense. anyway i noticed that i couldnt really see where the vatican says that being filthy rich is a mortal sin. we were arguing for nothing.

With respect, I think there is a fundamental difference between the wealth of an individual and the wealth of an organization. Yes the Vatican has a lot of wealth, but much of that wealth is tied up in properties that are held in trust for all. What good would it do anyone if the Vatican was to sell St. Peter’s and the Cistine Chapel? Granted it could raise hundreds of millions of dollars and then distribute it to the poor, but then what? And what about the millions of people who visit those holy sites each year?

–
Bill

 

[AgnosTheist]

With respect, you seem to be confusing crime and sin. I will grant that many who are rich are less likely to commit crimes than the poor. That being said, there are a host of activities that are legal, but I would consider them sinning.

sure there are. but you must admit, there is a lot more gravity to actual crimes.

Yep, how about eliminating the jobs of workers with families just so they can make the bottom line look better while at the same time pocketing a multi-million dollar bonus? Or how about moving a factory from one country to another because the other country has laxer labor and/or environmental laws.

a multi-million dollar bonus is peanuts for a company who can afford to move factories to another country. anyway, movements & renovations are needed for a company to remain competitive.

Or how about pocketing million dollar bonuses by encouraging people to borrow more than they can afford and then selling the loans to unsuspecting third parties?

i agree.

Or pocketing a multi-million dollar bonus when your company just lost 100 million dollars?

depends on the size of and economic status of the company.

To be honest, I think many sins are covered by people spouting the gospel of capitalism. In capitalism, the ends almost always are used as justification of the means. Morally, there are few things more repugnant. Materialism was one of the great sins of the 20th century and it looks like it will be one of the great sins of the 21st as well.

the stuff you mentioned are rare. i was looking forward to hear common sins that wealthy people commit on average.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Giotti’s comments are just an enumeration of “new” ways to commit old sins. These new methods are occasioned by new technologies and the new “global market”, among other things. All of these things - the killing of innocents, rich people who will not share with the poor (think the Rich Man and Lazarus), poor stewardship over God’s creation and all of the other sins discussed have always been with us and are described in the bible.

And where does “Genetic Manipulations” fit into? How is this a new method of committing the old sin?

How in heaven’s name is this sinful?

 

[AgnosTheist]

With respect, I think there is a fundamental difference between the wealth of an individual and the wealth of an organization.

you quoted the wrong guy. it was the other dude who complained about the vatican.

 

[PaulDupre]

And where does “Genetic Manipulations” fit into? How is this a new method of committing the old sin?

How in heaven’s name is this sinful?

They are speaking specifically of the cloning of human embryos in order to harvest stem cells or the cloning of humans for spare parts. Both of those involve the killing of innocents, which is condemned in the bible.

The Catholic Church does not object to genetically enhanced plants or anything like that.

paul

 

[AgnosTheist]

They are speaking specifically of the cloning of human embryos in order to harvest stem cells or the cloning of humans for spare parts. Both of those involve the killing of innocents, which is condemned in the bible.

The Catholic Church does not object to genetically enhanced plants or anything like that.

“Genetic Manipulations” is too broad of a term to be referring to human cloning alone. Otherwise I agree.

 

[mchale]

sure there are. but you must admit, there is a lot more gravity to actual crimes.

No, I don’t admit it. Crimes are determined by the government of a state, regardless of whether or not that government is legitimate. Laws do not automatically have moral value and at times defying laws is a moral act. Morality on the other hand, at least if you are a Christian, is not relative but rather set by God.

a multi-million dollar bonus is peanuts for a company who can afford to move factories to another country. anyway, movements & renovations are needed for a company to remain competitive.

This is exactly the logic of the world that I am arguing against. Companies have decided that people are disposable commodities. No benefit can be used to reduce people to that level.

i agree.

depends on the size of and economic status of the company.

the stuff you mentioned are rare. i was looking forward to hear common sins that wealthy people commit on average.

You claim it is rare, but the news reports are full of it every day. Mind you, I could point out that the the mega wealthy that we are discussing are rare. It seems to me that there are a lot of companies out there that adopt some or all of the above practices.

–
Bill

 

[AgnosTheist]

No, I don’t admit it. Crimes are determined by the government of a state, regardless of whether or not that government is legitimate. Laws do not automatically have moral value and at times defying laws is a moral act. Morality on the other hand, at least if you are a Christian, is not relative but rather set by God.

Look at it this way, a crimes is often something that Christianity sees as a bad thing…but its so bad that the secular government had to to classify it as a crime. Like Murder & Theft. These two are much more common among the lower classes than the elites.

This is exactly the logic of the world that I am arguing against. Companies have decided that people are disposable commodities. No benefit can be used to reduce people to that level.

Companies see people as customers, not commodities! The market is driven by the law of supply and demand, not by greed. Companies must do what it takes to survive. And the people must adopt to how their needs drives companies into going oversees.

You claim it is rare, but the news reports are full of it every day.

not really. but what you often see are the same news about the same guy which goes on for like 6 months at a time.

Mind you, I could point out that the the mega wealthy that we are discussing are rare. It seems to me that there are a lot of companies out there that adopt some or all of the above practices.

yeah its rare because the mega wealthy is like the wealthy among the filthy rich. but what are you really arguing about? is it just the mega-rich? the broader filthy rich? or wealthy people in general? and what are you trying to say- that they are comitting more serious sins than the average guy because of their wealth?

 

[ZuzuBailey]

Is there a link to your source?

ROME — Drug pushers, the obscenely rich, environmental polluters and “manipulative” genetic scientists beware — you may be in danger of losing your mortal soul unless you repent.

What is the basis for these decisions? Are they based on the pope’s authority? Or are they based on Scripture?

 

[planter654]

Look at it this way, a crimes is often something that Christianity sees as a bad thing…but its so bad that the secular government had to to classify it as a crime. Like Murder & Theft. These two are much more common among the lower classes than the elites.

Companies see people as customers, not commodities! The market is driven by the law of supply and demand, not by greed. Companies must do what it takes to survive. And the people must adopt to how their needs drives companies into going oversees.

not really. but what you often see are the same news about the same guy which goes on for like 6 months at a time.

yeah its rare because the mega wealthy is like the wealthy among the filthy rich. but what are you really arguing about? is it just the mega-rich? the broader filthy rich? or wealthy people in general? and what are you trying to say- that they are comitting more serious sins than the average guy because of their wealth?

Remember when Jesus told Laszarus when ask what he needed to do to get to heaven. Laszarus told Jesus he was faithful to the commandments etc etc. But Jesus said now go and give away all your riches to the needy and poor. Jesus said: Harder for a rich man to enter heaven. Jesus compared it to a camel trying to go through the eye of a needle.

Also idols we are slaves to our idols, material goods. Beware of idols is I think huge for it is spoken of over and over in new and old Testaments. do not crave or create an idol in any form including man or woman this is mention in the Bible also. Not to kneel before etc.

God Bless

God bless

 

[AgnosTheist]

Jesus said: Harder for a rich man to enter heaven. Jesus compared it to a camel trying to go through the eye of a needle.

thats not only ‘harder’ but practically impossible!

its obvious that catholics dont really believe that. i’d like to hear the vatican’s official interpretation for this verse.

 

[mchale]

Look at it this way, a crimes is often something that Christianity sees as a bad thing…but its so bad that the secular government had to to classify it as a crime. Like Murder & Theft. These two are much more common among the lower classes than the elites.

Of course the fact that the very wealthy are far more rare than the very poor might have something to do with it. I think it is also a question of how one defines it. Yes a rich person is not likely to mug someone on the street, but they are far more likely to manipulate stocks or commodities, to steal millions from their company or clients, to convince people that the stock of their company is going to go up while they sell the stock at the same time.

While I am not going to approve of any sin, I think I have a lot sympathy for the person who is at the bottom rung of our society than the one at the top.

Companies see people as customers, not commodities! The market is driven by the law of supply and demand, not by greed. Companies must do what it takes to survive. And the people must adopt to how their needs drives companies into going oversees.

Companies see people with money to spend as customers, they see people who are employed on the factory floor as commodities. Should I reference Jack Welch at GE who had a policy of firing lowest 10% of his managers every year regardless of how well they were performing on an objective scale?

Also I think we need to distinguish here between doing what it takes to survive and doing what it takes to maximize investor return. Frankly, a lot of companies outsource not because it is a difference between surviving and not but because it is the difference between 15 cents per share and 20 cents per share. Essentially, the whole system has a potential corrupting effect.

not really. but what you often see are the same news about the same guy which goes on for like 6 months at a time.

Or more likely the same dozen guys. But each year seems to bring a new batch of a dozen guys. Say what you will, but there are tons of under-performing CEOs who are making 10s of millions in bonuses.

yeah its rare because the mega wealthy is like the wealthy among the filthy rich. but what are you really arguing about? is it just the mega-rich? the broader filthy rich? or wealthy people in general? and what are you trying to say- that they are comitting more serious sins than the average guy because of their wealth?

What I am saying is that wealth can and does bring with it a new set of temptations and the wealthy are as likely to indulge in those temptations as others are likely to indulge in the temptations of their state in life. It is rarer in an absolute sense because the truly wealthy are much rarer, but in a relative sense, I suspect that they are at least as likely to sin as poor people; its just their sins will be of a different sort.

–
Bill

 

[planter654]

thats not only ‘harder’ but practically impossible!

its obvious that catholics dont really believe that. i’d like to hear the vatican’s official interpretation for this verse.

What they do not believe the simple message in the bible about idols. Catholics don’t believe in idols? God is a living God. Kneel in his presents.

What we are going to pick and choose?

God Bless

 

[AgnosTheist]

Of course the fact that the very wealthy are far more rare than the very poor might have something to do with it.

use ratio & proportion if you like. but the fact is, the wealthy have very little reason to steal. and lesser reason to kill. (thats why if the wealthy steals, i think thats greed to the highest degree, and they should burn in hell for that)

I think it is also a question of how one defines it. Yes a rich person is not likely to mug someone on the street, but they are far more likely to manipulate stocks or commodities, to steal millions from their company or clients, to convince people that the stock of their company is going to go up while they sell the stock at the same time.

there is no evidence for that assumption.

Also I think we need to distinguish here between doing what it takes to survive and doing what it takes to maximize investor return. Frankly, a lot of companies outsource not because it is a difference between surviving and not but because it is the difference between 15 cents per share and 20 cents per share. Essentially, the whole system has a potential corrupting effect.

even so, the west is still a wealthy region. instead outsourcing is elevating the economies of poorer countries.

What I am saying is that wealth can and does bring with it a new set of temptations and the wealthy are as likely to indulge in those temptations as others are likely to indulge in the temptations of their state in life. It is rarer in an absolute sense because the truly wealthy are much rarer, but in a relative sense, I suspect that they are at least as likely to sin as poor people; its just their sins will be of a different sort.

I agree absolutely. I just think that the poor is in more danger of committing more serious atrocities than wealthy people.

 

[1234]

Both were great people. Bill did the most, but he is just one of the few of his class. I can name a lot more rags-to-riches guys who became corrupt.

I know a lot of r-to-r guys who did *not *become corrupt and ended up spending their wealth on philanthropies…

 

[planter654]

use ratio & proportion if you like. but the fact is, the wealthy have very little reason to steal. and lesser reason to kill. (thats why if the wealthy steals, i think thats greed to the highest degree, and they should burn in hell for that)

there is no evidence for that assumption.

even so, the west is still a wealthy region. instead outsourcing is elevating the economies of poorer countries.

I agree absolutely. I just think that the poor is in more danger of committing more serious atrocities than wealthy people.

There is no evidence for that assumption… please? Have you ever heard of Enron you can believe there are many more in this area they just did get got yer?? The poor is in more danger fo committing more serious atrocities than the wealthy people, do you ever listen to the news. New York mayor today for one thing. The government, sports etc. Take a long look at movie stars who are rich. We are all sinners I know I am one. Trust no one, no one but God.

God Bless

God Bless

 

[macian]

I also am confused about how genetic manipulations are necessarily sinful. Obviously, in cases involving human DNA or embryoes, this is clearly an issue; but scientists use all sorts of genetic manipulations in research which do not violate the sanctity of human life. The wording of the articles I have read is quite vague: “You offend God … [by] carrying out mortally debatable scientific experiments, or allowing genetic manipulations which alter DNA or compromise embryos,”
allheadlinenews.com/articles/7010282589

Does anyone have any sources which clarify what is specifically wrong when it comes to genetic manipulations?

 

[AgnosTheist]

There is no evidence for that assumption… please? Have you ever heard of Enron you can believe there are many more in this area they just did get got yer?? The poor is in more danger fo committing more serious atrocities than the wealthy people, do you ever listen to the news. New York mayor today for one thing. The government, sports etc. Take a long look at movie stars who are rich.

perhaps if there are statistics which supports your assertions. on the contrary stats show that poorer places have higher crime rates. slum areas. the third world. you name it.