Vatican call to formalise Communion ritual

[hudson]

I am sorry, but Pope Benedict XVI is simply wrong on this issue. He is doing EXACTLY what the Pharisees did, making the right behavior be the model, instead of the belief. And Jesus himself condemned that kind of thinking. He rebuked his followers for attempting to impose their “rules” on other people.

After reading some of the comments made by the “true believers” on this subject, and on a number of other threads on these forums, I begin to understand why there are so many “Protesting Churches”. Those that attempt to impose their vision of what Catholicism should be, drive far more people away from the church than they attract.

It is MY church too, and the fanatics will NOT drive me out of it.

Pope Benedict XVI is wrong about this issue so says The Old Medic. Case Closed. The Pope should contact The Old Medic before stating anything else to make sure it is correct.

 

[James924]

I am sorry, but Pope Benedict XVI is simply wrong on this issue. He is doing EXACTLY what the Pharisees did, making the right behavior be the model, instead of the belief.

First of all, no he’s not wrong. Secondly, behavior affects belief and this is a historical fact. The way the protestants, especially in england, converted their populations was by changing the liturgy in ways that would change beliefs over a generation or two.

Altars were smashed and replaced with tables, dragged away from the walls so the pastor could face the people, no more reverence towards the altar or the tabernacle (which no longer existed except perhaps in Anglican churches), all prayers that emphasized sacrifice were removed and replaced with an emphasis on “meal” and “supper” (which, although not entirely incorrect, are only secondary or tertiary meanings) and prayers and actions that ephasized the differing roles of the pastor (no longer Priest because priests offer sacrifice) and the flock and his mediatorship on our behalf were removed and replaced with a theme of equality and collegiality.

If you stop acting like God is truly present, you’ll stop believeing it. Coincidentally, only about a quarter of Catholics today believe in the real presence.

 

[James924]

Pope Benedict XVI is wrong about this issue so says The Old Medic. Case Closed. The Pope should contact The Old Medic before stating anything else to make sure it is correct.

Wasn’t there a clause in Vatican One’s “Pastor Aeternus” that mentioned “check with Old Medic first” or something?

 

[MarkThompson]

Wasn’t there a clause in Vatican One’s “Pastor Aeternus” that mentioned “check with Old Medic first” or something?

I always turn to the venerable Doctors of the Church first, don’t you?

 

[Angel_Bradford]

I can NOT physically kneel on a bare floor. If I do, I have great pain (about 9 on a 1-10 scale, instantly), and I can not get up without assistance. This is because of two major compression fractures in my spine, extensive Psoriatic Arthritis and the results of being shot in the hip in 1964 in Vietnam.

I would like take this opportunity to thank you for your service to our county. Thank you and God bless you!

 

[James924]

I always turn to the venerable Doctors of the Church first, don’t you?

:clapping:

 

[James924]

I would like take this opportunity to thank you for your service to our county. Thank you and God bless you!

I echo that sentiment.

 

[Paxvobis]

Any truly binding and authoritative pronouncement from the Vatican will make it clear that the indult is being rescinded.

And of all the people who’d do that, I think Pope Benedict is near the top of the list.

 

[Little_One0307]

It is basically an allowed exception or specific adaptation to a rule or universal norms. For example, here in the US we have an indult to kneel for the Eucharistic prayer, which the universal norm is to stand except for the consecration.

Joannm,

Thanks for answering my question. I had to go digging for it.

God bless you.

 

[halleone]

I would love it if receiving the Holy Eucharist while on one’s knees became the norm.

There’s a church that I sometimes go to Mass at when traveling between where I currently live and where my relatives live. It’s a beautiful little Jesuit church and it still has the old Communion rail. I always notice it when I visit and think how sad it is that these are no longer used and that most churches have had them removed completely.

I imagine that were kneeling to become the norm again that it would not only help emphasize the reverence due to our Lord, but also allow us to take just a little more time to contemplate what is happening when we receive Him. The way Communion is handled in most of the parishes I’ve been to is to rush through the Communion line like someone who is in the check out line at the grocery store. Everyone seems to rush to get through and then back to their seats. It makes it very difficult to receive in a reverent manner.

I miss the old communion rail, also. Ours was re-fashioned into a baptismal fount (don’t know if that is the proper term). I feel that kneeling is most appropriate to show reverence, but as I am now in my 60’s, I just might not be able to get back up too readily.

I also feel I should kneel when I am in confession, as a sign of contrition on my part. It might be a priest behind that screen, but as far as I am concerned, I am admitting to God my sins, and on my knees it is!

 

[AntalKalnoky]

I miss the old communion rail, also. Ours was re-fashioned into a baptismal fount (don’t know if that is the proper term). I feel that kneeling is most appropriate to show reverence, but as I am now in my 60’s, I just might not be able to get back up too readily.

I also feel I should kneel when I am in confession, as a sign of contrition on my part. It might be a priest behind that screen, but as far as I am concerned, I am admitting to God my sins, and on my knees it is!

It is indeed God who hears, forgives our sins through his earthly servant, the Priest. Not anough people know that. Cardinal Llavosa’s key advisory is welcomed. It is the Proper Norm to Genuflect, or at least Bow, while the person ahead is receiving the Eucharist; it Is done routinelly at Our Parish, and always on the EWTN Conventual Mass. We should never not respect our Lord by simply rushing through line like our Protestant brothers who only think it’s a ‘remembrance’. At least bowing deeply is so Easy, and Important, to Our Lord/Saviour

 

[Oneofthewomen]

It is indeed God who hears, forgives our sins through his earthly servant, the Priest. Not anough people know that. Cardinal Llavosa’s key advisory is welcomed. It is the Proper Norm to Genuflect, or at least Bow, while the person ahead is receiving the Eucharist; it Is done routinelly at Our Parish, and always on the EWTN Conventual Mass. We should never not respect our Lord by simply rushing through line like our Protestant brothers who only think it’s a ‘remembrance’. *** At least bowing deeply is so Easy***, and Important, to Our Lord/Saviour

RE: the bolded part-

In the US a profound bow (at the waist) is not what is called for, only the bow of the head. (see paragraph 160 in the link)

I am in agreement with most here that there needs to be a little more respect when one receives, however mandating how one receives, IMHO is not the answer,
proper catechesis is.

 

[CallistusPM]

I would love it if receiving the Holy Eucharist while on one’s knees became the norm.

There’s a church that I sometimes go to Mass at when traveling between where I currently live and where my relatives live. It’s a beautiful little Jesuit church and it still has the old Communion rail. I always notice it when I visit and think how sad it is that these are no longer used and that most churches have had them removed completely.

I imagine that were kneeling to become the norm again that it would not only help emphasize the reverence due to our Lord, but also allow us to take just a little more time to contemplate what is happening when we receive Him. The way Communion is handled in most of the parishes I’ve been to is to rush through the Communion line like someone who is in the check out line at the grocery store. Everyone seems to rush to get through and then back to their seats. It makes it very difficult to receive in a reverent manner.

 

[CallistusPM]

CallistusPM:
10 August: St. LAwrence, M

Unfortunately, they gutted many churches after Vatican II. They may eventually regret this knee jerk approach. Hmmm, reminds me of an old aphorism: “What goes around comes around.”

 

[evener]

The underlying subject is reverence to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and how best to accomplish this.
My own experience in attempting reverence began with memories of 1950s Masses I attended, (not yet assisted at) where mostly scarf or shawl clad ladies prayed the rosary before & during Mass, except for when the bells rang 3 times for the consecration.
It came to me in those memories that the people began their reverence as soon as they entered the doors of the church, because Jesus was present in the tabernacle. Truly His
house was a house of prayer, not a marketplace of idle conversation.
Next I recalled how often I offered Him indifference, when He welcomed me with open
arms when I entered His church.
So at every Mass I assist at now I try to begin reverence to God as I enter His house, at the holy water fount. Being aware of who God is, and who I am, makes reverence very easy to accomplish, even through Holy Communion.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

10 August: St. LAwrence, M

Unfortunately, they gutted many churches after Vatican II. They may eventually regret this knee jerk approach. Hmmm, reminds me of an old aphorism: “What goes around comes around.”

                                                                                         Welcome to  CAF,  Callistus!   We  all continue  to Learn here.  I  sdure  have.  Thank You Lord.

No one “Gutted many Churches”. No One, especially the Catholic Church. Some were formally closed, Properly, because people moved out of Cities to suburbs. None are “gutted”. Catholic Churches are Per Se the Home of The Lord; Never abused, Ever. Even if Deconsecrated, they are never allowed by the local Bishop to be misused. I belong to a 10th Anniversary since Founding from Nothing very Traditional ;instant “Megachurch” of over 12,000, tripled membership in the the 3 years since Our 1200 seat Church was consecrated 45 miles from DC. We have 65 Organizations, Very active. And No One talks in Church! I’m an Usher who has removed one vistor who refused to stop talking full voice. We follow Mother Angelica’s model of a couple of Prayers by the Priest after Mass. We have Many Converts, ideal RCIA.

Our Big Church building Is The Home of Our Lord; everyone Knows it, and Vatican and USCCB Liturgical Guidelines Must be Followed by Every Pastor and Bishop: [SIGN]The House of The Lord[/SIGN]. Traditions have never left, like the First Century Rule (Still Cannon Law) on Abstinence on Fridays, all year except holidays.

Our Lord’s way is always The Ideal, First Century on.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

RE: the bolded part-

In the US a profound bow (at the waist) is not what is called for, only the bow of the head. (see paragraph 160 in the link)

I am in agreement with most here that there needs to be a little more respect when one receives, however mandating how one receives, IMHO is not the answer,
proper catechesis is.

Thanks! (1) a Deep Bow is my personal choice, as others who choose to. (2) His Eminence Cardinal Lavorse’s Formal statement is not a ‘mandate’ but an Ex Officio important teaching advisory we Should respect and follow. Teaching the Parish is also important, in RCIA and by the Pastor.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Welcome to CAF, Callistus! We all continue to Learn here. I sdure have. Thank You Lord.

No one “Gutted many Churches”. No One, especially the Catholic Church. Some were formally closed, Properly, because people moved out of Cities to suburbs. None are “gutted”. Catholic Churches are Per Se the Home of The Lord; Never abused, Ever. Even if Deconsecrated, they are never allowed by the local Bishop to be misused. I belong to a 10th Anniversary since Founding from Nothing very Traditional ;instant “Megachurch” of over 12,000, tripled membership in the the 3 years since Our 1200 seat Church was consecrated 45 miles from DC. We have 65 Organizations, Very active. And No One talks in Church! I’m an Usher who has removed one vistor who refused to stop talking full voice. We follow Mother Angelica’s model of a couple of Prayers by the Priest after Mass. We have Many Converts, ideal RCIA.

Our Big Church building Is The Home of Our Lord; everyone Knows it, and Vatican and USCCB Liturgical Guidelines Must be Followed by Every Pastor and Bishop: [SIGN]The House of The Lord[/SIGN]. Traditions have never left, like the First Century Rule (Still Cannon Law) on Abstinence on Fridays, all year except holidays.

Our Lord’s way is always The Ideal, First Century on.

I’m thinking he’s talking about the removal of altar rails and ripping out high altars and things like that.

 

[zab]

Thanks! (1) a Deep Bow is my personal choice, as others who choose to. (2) His Eminence Cardinal Lavorse’s Formal statement is not a ‘mandate’ but an Ex Officio important teaching advisory we Should respect and follow. Teaching the Parish is also important, in RCIA and by the Pastor.

I like the way that you state that making a Deep Bow is your personal choice. Just as it is a personal choice for those who choose to kneel or genuflect. I also believe that we should respect Cardinal Lavorse’s recommendation of returning to kneeling for reception of Communion. I just don’t think that he intended this to be done without a Communion rail or any kneeling aids when many Communicants would have difficulty going down and getting up.

 

[CallistusPM]

I’m thinking he’s talking about the removal of altar rails and ripping out high altars and things like that.

12 Aug.: St. Clare, V

Perhaps we havea different meaning for the word “gutted.” I do not wish to split hairs or argue semantics. Historians say Luther, Cranmer, et al, “gutted Roman Catholic Churches” in their day and what they left still, in many ways, resembled the original. They tended to move very slowly. Not so in the 1970s. I can only tell you of my personal experiences in several Catholic Churches before the council and the results after this council. 1) confessional booths removed entirely, 2) altar rails removed, 3) side altars removed,4) main altar either entirely stripped or removed,5) tabernacles removed and placed in obscure, out of the way places, sometimes separate small back rooms with no adornments.6) Organs removed from the rear of the church to the main sanctuaries accompanied with other musical instruments, and familiar hymns vanished,7) Various other statues, paintings and other altars removed, 8) main altar replaced by a table in the center of the sanctuary and throne-like chairs behind it against the wall for the clergy or “president” to sit. Now, this was probably not fully experienced in all churches but certainly in some and most of the ones I had previously attended. If you excaped this (I will still call it gutting,) than you are indeed fortunate and I can see where you cannot begin to relate to what I am expressing here. I do know that the churches were basically planned and laid out the same with the same orthodox, explecit and defined liturgy. You go to Mass in one, you attend all. Universality was the theme. This is no longer the case.
Novus Ordo Masses are different wherever I go. Perfhaps you are young and don’t know the way it was before the council. What you have today is “normal” for you and that is good. For many of us who are “old foggies,” it is a hard fact to swallow.