Vatican call to formalise Communion ritual

[CallistusPM]

First, nothing you have stated will prevent ‘Fr. Spirit of Vatican II’ from creating his own version of the Roman Missal whenever he celebrates Mass. Second, I’m not too interested in antiquarianism that resurrected elements of the Roman Rite absent for over a thousand years and has obscured the process of organic development in the liturgical life of the Church.

16Aug.: St. Jochim, Father of the BVM, C . . . You are so correct: " . . .nothing you have stated will prevent ‘Fr.Spirit of Vatican II’ from celebrating his own version of the Roman Missal whenever he celebrates Mass." That being said, the Church is NOT universal ! Liturgy reflects belief, ergo, there are many beliefs eminating from the Novus Ordo liturgy as practiced today. We have clown Massses, Guitar Masses, Dancing Maiden Masses, etc. and etc…
The latest reforms, I am told, will deal with a closer vernacular interpretation of the original Latin Mass of the Roman Rite. Well, we had all of this way before the council with Latin Mass Missals containing the vernacular translations. If the powers that be insist on a vernacular Mass, why not use these beautiful and solemn translations that have been available for hundreds of years? My understanding is that much of the new vernacular wording will more closely resemble this ancient translation.
The progression of the ancient Latin Mass of the Roman Rite can be traced in the definitive account THE MASS, A Study Of The Roman Liturgy, by Father Adrian Fortescue - my second bible. This treatise is intended to supply information about the history of the development of Roman liturgy as we knew it prior to the integral changes brought on by Vatican II . I avidly encourage all who are interested in this topic to read this book.

 

[ProVobis]

If the powers that be insist on a vernacular Mass, why not use these beautiful and solemn translations that have been available for hundreds of years?

Okay but where is the Vatican requirement that the Mass needs to be said in English? And maybe some (like my dad) don’t think any English is beautiful. Just saying.

 

[CallistusPM]

Okay but where is the Vatican requirement that the Mass needs to be said in English? And maybe some (like my dad) don’t think any English is beautiful. Just saying.

Latin should be and is preferred. Before Vatican II, it was required in celebrating the Roman Rite. It allows strict interpretation not subject to ambiguity and certainly not allowing the priest to impose his own renderings and novelty innovations. The rubrics are solid with narrow and strict parameters. And Latin is a beautiful exacting language lending itself to the lovely chant which was developed for it. Not so the Novus Ordo. Have you witnessed the attempt to sing English refrains and prayers to the ancient chant melodies? Very strange, indeed. Your dad is correct. Ideally, Latin is the most compatible language for the ancient liturgy. It was purposely developed for it. The Second Vatican Council made mention of some vernacular liturgy but still emphasized Latin as THE official language of the church. Somehow, this got lost in the shuffle. Why? First, the excuse that people would better understand what was taking place during Mass. Second, the council emphasized ecumenical worldwide Christian unity and a vernacular language would be far more appealing and acceptable to the general public than the unfamiliar and mysterious language of Latin. The belief was that the more Protestant-like the Mass was, the more Protestants would accept the church's liturgy. There are many similarities in today's Novus Ordo with various Protestant services.

 

[onenow1]

Latin should be and is preferred. Before Vatican II, it was required in celebrating the Roman Rite. It allows strict interpretation not subject to ambiguity and certainly not allowing the priest to impose his own renderings and novelty innovations. The rubrics are solid with narrow and strict parameters. And Latin is a beautiful exacting language lending itself to the lovely chant which was developed for it. Not so the Novus Ordo. Have you witnessed the attempt to sing English refrains and prayers to the ancient chant melodies? Very strange, indeed. Your dad is correct. Ideally, Latin is the most compatible language for the ancient liturgy. It was purposely developed for it. The Second Vatican Council made mention of some vernacular liturgy but still emphasized Latin as THE official language of the church. Somehow, this got lost in the shuffle. Why? First, the excuse that people would better understand what was taking place during Mass. Second, the council emphasized ecumenical worldwide Christian unity and a vernacular language would be far more appealing and acceptable to the general public than the unfamiliar and mysterious language of Latin. The belief was that the more Protestant-like the Mass was, the more Protestants would accept the church’s liturgy. There are many similarities in today’s Novus Ordo with various Protestant services.

When they took the communion rails away all sorts of corruption crept in just watch the communion lines ! Just saying !npatrol:

 

[centurionguard]

Please watch this brief video
gloria.tv/?media=169603

**"Jesus Christ is in every book of the Bible.

In Genesis, Jesus is the Seed of the Woman.
In Exodus, He is the Passover Lamb.
In Leviticus, He is the Priest, the Altar, and the Lamb of Sacrifice.
In Numbers, He is a Pillar of Cloud by day and the Pillar of Fire by Night.
In Deuteronomy, Jesus is the Prophet, like Moses.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Joshua, Jesus is the Captain of Our Salvation.
In Judges, He is our Judge and Lawgiver.
In Ruth, He is our kinsman Redeemer.
In 1 and 2 Samuel, He is our Trusted Prophet.
In Kings and Chronicles, He is our Reigning King.
In Ezra, He is the rebuilder of the broken down walls of human life.
Come and kneel before Him now.
In Nehemiah, Jesus is our Restorer.
In Tobit, He is the Messenger of New Life.
In Judith, He is Weakness Turned into Victory.
In Esther, He is our Advocate.
In 1 and 2 Maccabees, He is the Leader who dies for God’s law.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Job, Jesus is our Everliving Redeemer.
In Psalms, He is our Shepherd.
In Proverbs, He is our Wisdom.
In Ecclesiastes, He is our Hope of Resurrection.
In the Song of Songs, He is our Loving Bridegroom.
In Wisdom, He is the emanation of God’s thought.
In Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Jesus is our security.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Isaiah, Jesus is the Suffering Servant.
In Jeremiah, He is the Righteous Branch.
In Lamentations, He is our Weeping Prophet.
In Baruch, He is the Mercy from the Eternal One.
In Ezekiel, He is the One with the Right to Rule.
In Daniel, Jesus is the Fourth Man in the fiery furnace.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Hosea, Jesus is the Faithful Husband forever married to the sinner.
In Joel, He is the One who Baptizes with the Holy Spirit of Fire.
In Amos, He is the Restorer of Justice.
In Obadiah, He is Mighty to Save.
In Jonah, He is our great foreign missionary.
In Micah, He is the feet of one who brings Good News.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Nahum, Jesus is our stronghold in the day of trouble.
In Habakkuk, He is God my Savior.
In Zephaniah, He is the King of Israel.
In Haggai, He is the signet ring.
In Zechariah, He is our Humble King riding on a colt.
In Malachi, Jesus is the Son of Righteousness.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Matthew, Jesus is God with us.
In Mark, He is the Son of God.
In Luke, He is the Son of Mary, feeling what you feel.
In John, He is the Bread of Life.
In Acts, Jesus is the Savior of the World.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Romans, Jesus is the Righteousness of God.
In 1 Corinthians, He is the Resurrection.
In 2 Corinthians, He is the God of all comfort.
In Galatians, He is your liberty. He sets you free.
In Ephesians, Jesus is the Head of the Church.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Philippians, Jesus is your Joy.
In Colossians, He is your Completeness.
In 1 and 2 Thessalonians, He is your Hope.
In 1 Timothy, He is your Faith.
In 2 Timothy, Jesus is your Stability.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In Titus, Jesus is Truth.
In Philemon, He is your Benefactor.
In Hebrews, He is your Perfection.
In James, He is the Power behind your Faith.
In 1 Peter, He is your Example.
In 2 Peter, Jesus is your Purity.
Come and kneel before Him now.

In 1 John, Jesus is your Life.
In 2 John, He is your Pattern.
In 3 John, He is your Motivation.
In Jude, He is the Foundation of your Faith.

In Revelation, Jesus is your Coming King.

He is:
The First and the Last.
The Beginning and the End.
He is the Keeper of Creation and the Creator of All.
He is the Architect of the Universe and the Manager of All Time.
He Always Was, He Always Is, and He Always Will Be Unmoved, Unchanged, Undefeated, and Never Undone.

He was bruised and brought healing.
He was pierced and eased pain.
He was persecuted and brought freedom.
He was dead and brought life.
He is risen and brings power.
He reigns and brings peace.

The world can’t understand Him.
The armys can’t defeat Him.
Schools can’t explain Him and the leaders can’t ignore Him.
Herod couldn’t kill Him.
The Pharisees couldn’t confuse Him.
The people couldn’t hold him.
Nero couldn’t crush Him.
Hitler couldn’t silence Him.
The New Age can’t replace Him.
And Oprah can’t explain Him away.

He is Life, Love, Longevity, and Lord.
He is Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness and God.
He is Holy, Righteous, Mighty, Powerful, and Pure.
His Ways our Right, His Words Eternal, His Rules Unchanging, and His
Mind is on me.
He is My Redeemer, He is My Savior, He is My God, He is My Priest, He is My Joy, He is My Comfort, He is My Lord, and He rules my life."**

Love The Video of the Eucharistic Flash Mob.
People can criticize it in so so many ways but KNEELING is a Symbol of HUMILITY.
For there held by the Priest’s hands is Almighty God in His Son JESUS Hidden for those who have Eyes to See.
The SAME GOD before MOSES in the BURNING BUSH
Even the ANGELS in Heaven Fall Prostrate Before God in unceasing Adoration.

I never liked Standing Up before the Consecration or Standing Up to receive My Lord and My God. I only do it in obedience to my Priest.
Inside I never feel right though I Love My God Before All Else despite My Failings.

Who claims Equality with God? KNEELING best befits the symbolized sentiment of Humility before God our Creator for those who have the physical capability of doing so.

Its true we are called to Suffer for Our Faith.

Peace
Chris

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

First, nothing you have stated will prevent ‘Fr. Spirit of Vatican II’ from creating his own version of the Roman Missal whenever he celebrates Mass.

This goes for the EF as well.

When there is someone who wishes to abuse the form of the Mass it does not matter if it is an Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form, he will abuse it.

There is nothing inherent in the EF that prevents abuse.

By the way, I am just paraphrasing a comment made by Brother JR in his post on WYD in the Traditional forum.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Okay but where is the Vatican requirement that the Mass needs to be said in English? And maybe some (like my dad) don’t think any English is beautiful. Just saying.

I have yet to see any one make this claim. Just saying.

Can anyone point out where the use of the vernacular has been disallowed?

Sacrosanctum Concilium states that “competent territorial bodies of bishops” may approve the use of the vernacular with the confirmation of the Apostolic See. It goes on to say that such use may be of “great advantage to the people”.

 

[PA650]

This goes for the EF as well.

When there is someone who wishes to abuse the form of the Mass it does not matter if it is an Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form, he will abuse it.

There is nothing inherent in the EF that prevents abuse.

By the way, I am just paraphrasing a comment made by Brother JR in his post on WYD in the Traditional forum.

I feel that the abuses that may occur in the EF are dramatically different than anything that could emerge in the OF. For example, a poorly celebrated Mass in the EF could entail rubrics not being implemented correctly or small parts of the Roman Missal omitted while the open-ended nature of the OF allows the participation of the community with the celebrant to entirely diminish the sacrificial nature of Holy Mass, and thus the Mass becomes man-centered rather than God-centered. Perhaps an unfair comparison, yet I haven’t seen or read about a Mass in the EF abused enough to obfuscate the clear meaning of what truly transpires during Mass. In essence, the proper liturgical formation of the priest is key in establishing an abuse free Mass in a parish setting–a slow process occurring within the Church as the experimentation of the post-Vatican II era dies down.

 

[evener]

[edited]
As we well know now, less importance has been given to the Holy Eucharist, quite a bit less in the last 46 years. This is the problem being partially addressed here.
Certainly kneeling again for Holy Communion would help, as would demanding silence and reverence when in God’s house, and re-educating all to the fact, as St. John Vianney would say,“Jesus is there!”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Quoting from Our Lady’s message at Garabandal, “Before the cup was filling up. now it is flowing over. Many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are on the road to perdition and are taking many souls with them. Less and less importance is being given to the Eucharist.” (June 18th, 1965)
As we well know now, less importance has been given to the Holy Eucharist, quite a bit less in the last 46 years. This is the problem being partially addressed here.
Certainly kneeling again for Holy Communion would help, as would demanding silence and reverence when in God’s house, and re-educating all to the fact, as St. John Vianney would say,“Jesus is there!”

It is against forum rules to post messages from unapproved apparitions.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi,
At the last supper, the apostles received holy communion in a reclined position.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

IMHO, mandating gestures of piety is an ill-conceived solution
to the problem at hand.

If we really want people to understand and appreciate the Eucharist
what we need is a lot more good & meaningful catechesis
and a lot less of “my way is better than your way…”.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Certainly kneeling again for Holy Communion would help, as would demanding silence and reverence when in God’s house…

The problem is that there’s no way to “demand” silence.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

IMHO, mandating gestures of piety is an ill-conceived solution
to the problem at hand.

If we really want people to understand and appreciate the Eucharist
what we need is a lot more good & meaningful catechesis
and a lot less of “my way is better than your way…”.

Whenever these sort of discussions crop up here at CAF (which is quite often) two passages of scripture come to mind.

Matthew 7:3-5
Luke 18:9-14

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Perhaps an unfair comparison, yet I haven’t seen or read about a Mass in the EF abused enough to obfuscate the clear meaning of what truly transpires during Mass.

Currently the Latin Mass is only said by those who have a love for the particular form of Mass. Obviously in such cases there would be far fewer abuses. If the Latin Mass was brought back for all Masses, I fail to see why priests who skip the Gloria and Creed now wouldn’t continue to skip them in latin.
As for changing of wording, most priests wouldn’t know enough latin to begin changing words around. However there would be plenty of mispronunciations and perhaps skipped words.

In essence, the proper liturgical formation of the priest is key in establishing an abuse free Mass in a parish setting–a slow process occurring within the Church as the experimentation of the post-Vatican II era dies down.

Indeed.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Whenever these sort of discussions crop up here at CAF (which is quite often) two passages of scripture come to mind.

Matthew 7:3-5
Luke 18:9-14

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[CallistusPM]

IMHO, mandating gestures of piety is an ill-conceived solution
to the problem at hand

If we really want people to understand and appreciate the Eucharist
what we need is a lot more good & meaningful catechesis
and a lot less of “my way is better than your way…”.

18Aug.: St. Agapitus, M
But, for something as sacred as this, there should be a proper way.

 

[CallistusPM]

I feel that the abuses that may occur in the EF are dramatically different than anything that could emerge in the OF. For example, a poorly celebrated Mass in the EF could entail rubrics not being implemented correctly or small parts of the Roman Missal omitted while the open-ended nature of the OF allows the participation of the community with the celebrant to entirely diminish the sacrificial nature of Holy Mass, and thus the Mass becomes man-centered rather than God-centered. Perhaps an unfair comparison, yet I haven’t seen or read about a Mass in the EF abused enough to obfuscate the clear meaning of what truly transpires during Mass. In essence, the proper liturgical formation of the priest is key in establishing an abuse free Mass in a parish setting–a slow process occurring within the Church as the experimentation of the post-Vatican II era dies down.

Yes, but sometimes the abuse is unintentional; the Ordinary Form of Mass (Novus Ordo) lends itself to more abuses.

 

[CallistusPM]

[edited]
As we well know now, less importance has been given to the Holy Eucharist, quite a bit less in the last 46 years. This is the problem being partially addressed here.
Certainly kneeling again for Holy Communion would help, as would demanding silence and reverence when in God’s house, and re-educating all to the fact, as St. John Vianney would say,“Jesus is there!”

Most surveys I have seen indicate a majority of Catholics do not believe in the Divine Presence/Transubstantiation. Unfortunately, this also includes some clergy. Perhaps, this is partially to blame for the “lack of importance” for the Sacred Eucharist???

 

[Julia_Mae]

14Aug.: Vigil of Assumption of the BVM; St. Eusebius, C

Just think, all of this obfuscation, individual interpretations, uncertainty, bickering, and constant reforms of the sacred liturgy could have been avoided had the Immemorial Liturgy of our chuch fathers -…"

It wasn’t “immemorial” and only of our fathers and grandfathers.

The actual practice was for the Mass to be in the common language. Hence: Greek changed to Latin. Then in the Dark Ages, we got stuck in the Latin.

Priests don’t need to be turned away from us like they are huddled up in a secret ceremony. Jesus was having dinner with His Apostles, the Apostles and their presbyters just had meetings around a table. The way it’s done now is the ancient way - unless we get a way bigger table and all sit at it.

Change is hard and it was WAY too much change too fast.

Personally, I wish they would give some dress norms and insist on silence in the nave for like the hour before, during and after Mass. No eating in the pews, because there’s only one food that matters. Let’s have some reforms that we so desperately need!!!

People who stick dirty kleenex in the envelope well should be excommunicated.