Vatican calls for Central World Bank

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My evangelical conspiracy theorist friends are going to run with this one:

reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/idUS264245887020111024

A Central World Bank sounds like exactly the thing my evangelical friends have warned me the Catholic Church would do to try and establish a One World Government. I hear this all the time on local Christian radio where “End Times” programs trumpet this as a sign of the last days.

What do my non-Catholic friends think of this announcement? Is it the establishment of the so-called Whore of Babylon worldwide?
The anti Catholics over on CARM will probably end up crashing the site over this one.:rolleyes:

MOST non Catholics by far will not read anything conspiratorial into this though. Endorsing a world bank isn’t necessarily correct, but it’s certainly not diabolical or conspiratorial.

Only the anti Catholic kookoligists would buy into the conspiracy aspect of this.
 
The anti Catholics over on CARM will probably end up crashing the site over this one.:rolleyes:

MOST non Catholics by far will not read anything conspiratorial into this though. Endorsing a world bank isn’t necessarily correct, but it’s certainly not diabolical or conspiratorial.

Only the anti Catholic kookoligists would buy into the conspiracy aspect of this.
Maybe it’s not conspiratorial. But I would call it diabolical since I believe the devil would love to take away freedom.
 
How exactly did the money-changers defile the Temple… were they wearing filthy and smelly clothes??.. were they selling smut??

Nay, they were doing what money-changers do best i.e. engage in usury.

And how does the Bible view usury?

" If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
"If you ever take your neighbor’s garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down.
"For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious. … (Exodus 22:25-27)

’ If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you.
'Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
'You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. … (Leviticus 25:35-37)

They defiled the Temple by turning it into a place for them to greedily make money by selling those things that they knew the Jews needed to offer for sacrifices in the Temple, at a high price. So, basically, they were selling those sacrifices to the poor!

Those admonitions you mentioned refer to the rich taking advantage of the poor in order to make a profit from them, when they can barely afford to live. That’s called a lack of charity and it’s that sin that they refer to. But, not everyone that borrows money from a bank are ‘poor’, but they lack sufficient cash to buy what they need. They are usually buying houses or other high priced items, like cars, that they need to live and work. So, they borrow the money because they don’t have enough to pay for it all at once. There is nothing wrong with banks charging a small, fair amount of interest on that loan, for the bank to provide that kind of service to the public.
"In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take usury and increase; you have made profit from your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me," says the Lord GOD.(Ezekiel 22:12)
Taking bribes, or ‘protection money’, has nothing to do with loans. That money will never be paid back to those that it was extorted from, by any means. They are a sinful practice that groups of individuals use to control people into ‘towing the line’. It’s a form of forcing them to ‘buy protection’ or to suffer the consequences as punishment for non-payment. The Mafia is the best example of enforcing that kind of ‘usury’, though there are other equally heinous groups that do the same thing for different reasons, even supposedly ‘religious’ groups that require minimum donations to ‘the cause’ in exchange for that kind of ‘protection’.
**And how did Jesus (pbuh) view divine laws?

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.** … (Matthew 5:17-18)

And so, make no mistake about it, the reason why Jesus went ballistic and threw the money-changers out of the Temple is because they were promoting and engaging in the extremely grave sin of usury.

Now, if only the Pope and the Vatican would follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and declare war on usury, it would surely go a very long way indeed towards solving the world’s financial crisis.
I think you are mistaking what Jesus was saying in that quote. He was referring to the ‘wages of sin’ that will need to be repaid by all, before they can enter Heaven. Once again, He was not talking about money, at all. He was speaking in the spiritual sense, not about anything to do with the physical world. He came to fulfill the Law of Moses as the Messiah. In a way, He paid the ‘wages of sin’ for all of us on the cross, and we in turn repay Him for that sacrifice by following Him with true faith and devotion to God’s Holy Word (Jesus Christ), and by avoiding all manner of sin. Whenever we do sin (and we all do), we need to do penance to repay the ‘wages’ of that sin.
 
How exactly did the money-changers defile the Temple…
The Temple is reserved for the worship of the Almighty and no other purpose. Holiness in Judaism was understood as separation - hence the Levitical laws that proscribed Israelites from doing outwardly secular things in imitation of their neighbors.
Nay, they were doing what money-changers do best i.e. engage in usury.
You’re conflating the charging of interest with the exploitation of prices. Usury is exploitation - Scripture has no qualms with an affordable rate of interest being charged for a loan that both parties accept freely. Note how each passage you cite from Scripture talks only of how to treat the poor.

Scripture defines usury as exacting excessive payments for a loan, usually in order to take advantage of times of excessive need. Nehemiah 5:2-4 condemns usury without reference to interest - only to charging excessively for grain in time of famine. The prohibitions you cite in Exodus regard those the Lord calls “My people, the poor among you”. This would not prohibit the charging of interest on loans to non-Israelites - Deut 23:20 states “you may charge interest to a foreigner”.

Our Lord Jesus Christ does not care if DeutscheBank wanted to give a loan with payments of $1200 a month to a couple making $5000 a month. Our Lord Jesus Christ expects the couple to believe in Him, give generously of their wealth, and live according to His teachings. He does not condemn people for putting money in a savings account.
 
My evangelical conspiracy theorist friends are going to run with this one:

reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/idUS264245887020111024

A Central World Bank sounds like exactly the thing my evangelical friends have warned me the Catholic Church would do to try and establish a One World Government. I hear this all the time on local Christian radio where “End Times” programs trumpet this as a sign of the last days.

What do my non-Catholic friends think of this announcement? Is it the establishment of the so-called Whore of Babylon worldwide?
I think the request is ridiculous.

Where is it shown that central control is more adaptive or innovative in responding to crisis than decentralized control.

How does central control miraculously prevent greed and selfishness from exerting influence?
 
Maybe it’s not conspiratorial. But I would call it diabolical since I believe the devil would love to take away freedom.
The devil would also like us to stub our toe and curse in pain. In that sense you could say that cursing is diabolical but the word is almost never applied that way.

As far as “taking away our freedoms” I’ve been hearing that most of my 50 year life span about different things but I’m still just as free as I always was, though the “taking away our freedoms” crowd often tries talking me out of thinking I’m free…not necessarily you, but it’s happened enough times that I take it less seriously than I used to, which only leads into the old “head in the sand” accusation. I can think of all kinds of things that could FEASIBLY take away my freedom but I’m done over reacting to that phrase.

How are we so certain that a world bank couldn’t in some unforeseen way, increase freedom for people? Or make a better standard of living for some people?

I still don’t like the idea of world-level institutions, I just think we sometimes over react to stuff like this.
 
I think the request is ridiculous.

Where is it shown that central control is more adaptive or innovative in responding to crisis than decentralized control.

How does central control miraculously prevent greed and selfishness from exerting influence?
Did you even bother to read that article, or any of the other responses in the whole thread, before ‘shooting from the hip’? 🤷
 
I’m beginning to believe I need a break from religion at this point.
Maybe you just need a break from your computer.

The Vatican shouldn’t have to kowtow to the expectations of fundamentalists and evangelicals. It’s one thing to act charitably toward our separated brethren, it’s another to constantly tiptoe on eggshells out of fear, as if we suspect at any moment the Church will come crashing down on top of us. One of the reasons other branches of the Faith can’t be targeted and held accountable in the (very public) way that the Catholic Church can is because they can’t speak with a united or authoritative voice. If they’re going to give you flak, you have a whole host of counterpoints available to you. They ought to be at least as concerned about their own ecclesiology as they are about yours. Try asking them why they attend a church that wasn’t founded 2000 years ago by Jesus, for starters. Or, accept the criticism over a non-doctrinal issue and offer up your suffering.

I’m reminded of a line from the Litany of Humility: “From the fear of suffering rebukes, Deliver me, Jesus.” The hits are going to keep coming regardless of what happens in Rome. If we disagree with a non-binding statement from the Vatican, we at the very least need to be respectful, calm and faithful.

Personally, I think the fear and nail-biting in threads like this may set a worse example for anti-Catholics than any statement the Vatican could make.
 
While I still think the whole thing is naive, and while I realize Wall Street is mentioned (in a response) we need to remember that the Vatican does not focus on the U.S. the way we do.

In Europe right now, there is at least a looming crisis because of the Greek debt problem, now seemingly joined by an Italian debt problem of much greater scale. It’s hard to fix because, unlike the U.S., the EU as an entity apart from its constituent states, doesn’t really have the resources to pull a TARP 1a 1b or TARP 2. Nor does the EU, as a separate entity, have the power to crank up the printing presses like Bernanke did or, as Bernanke did, back interbank overnight deposits to prevent illiquidity. There are lots and lots of Greek and Italian debt instruments on the portfolios of European banks, and no clear way to bail them out. So basically there isn’t a mechanism to solve their crisis other than whatever the northern European states agree to do to bail out the insolvent ones. Not surprisingly, the northern European people are not too keen on doing that. There is a significant possibility that banking in southern Europe (perhaps more) will simply seize up.

Probably someone focused on Europe, and particularly Italy, would wish there was a world bank with capabilities similar to the U.S. system taken as a whole, or at least a European one. But right now, there isn’t.
 
While I still think the whole thing is naive, and while I realize Wall Street is mentioned (in a response) we need to remember that the Vatican does not focus on the U.S. the way we do.

In Europe right now, there is at least a looming crisis because of the Greek debt problem, now seemingly joined by an Italian debt problem of much greater scale. It’s hard to fix because, unlike the U.S., the EU as an entity apart from its constituent states, doesn’t really have the resources to pull a TARP 1a 1b or TARP 2. Nor does the EU, as a separate entity, have the power to crank up the printing presses like Bernanke did or, as Bernanke did, back interbank overnight deposits to prevent illiquidity. There are lots and lots of Greek and Italian debt instruments on the portfolios of European banks, and no clear way to bail them out. So basically there isn’t a mechanism to solve their crisis other than whatever the northern European states agree to do to bail out the insolvent ones. Not surprisingly, the northern European people are not too keen on doing that. There is a significant possibility that banking in southern Europe (perhaps more) will simply seize up.

Probably someone focused on Europe, and particularly Italy, would wish there was a world bank with capabilities similar to the U.S. system taken as a whole, or at least a European one. But right now, there isn’t.
The entire Whore of Babylon system created by the fundamentalists requires a successful EU for the anti-Christ to be in charge of with the Catholic Church supporting it. If the EU implodes their entire prophetic system implodes with it.
 
While I still think the whole thing is naive, and while I realize Wall Street is mentioned (in a response) we need to remember that the Vatican does not focus on the U.S. the way we do.

In Europe right now, there is at least a looming crisis because of the Greek debt problem, now seemingly joined by an Italian debt problem of much greater scale. It’s hard to fix because, unlike the U.S., the EU as an entity apart from its constituent states, doesn’t really have the resources to pull a TARP 1a 1b or TARP 2. Nor does the EU, as a separate entity, have the power to crank up the printing presses like Bernanke did or, as Bernanke did, back interbank overnight deposits to prevent illiquidity. There are lots and lots of Greek and Italian debt instruments on the portfolios of European banks, and no clear way to bail them out. So basically there isn’t a mechanism to solve their crisis other than whatever the northern European states agree to do to bail out the insolvent ones. Not surprisingly, the northern European people are not too keen on doing that. There is a significant possibility that banking in southern Europe (perhaps more) will simply seize up.

Probably someone focused on Europe, and particularly Italy, would wish there was a world bank with capabilities similar to the U.S. system taken as a whole, or at least a European one. But right now, there isn’t.
Very good points. Our tendency in the U.S. is to immediately try to jive such statements in terms of what it contributes to the Democrat vs. Republican melee. But it’s not all about us. (Hey “U.S.” and “us” have the same letters, just with different capitalization and punctuation. :))
 
The entire Whore of Babylon system created by the fundamentalists requires a successful EU for the anti-Christ to be in charge of with the Catholic Church supporting it. If the EU implodes their entire prophetic system implodes with it.
So it would be a good thing for the EU to implode so the Fundamentalists prophetic system implodes too?
 
Well, let me quibble with this just a bit. When Bush left office, unemployment was at 7%. Obama said he could prevent it from going to 8% if he just had a lot of money to throw around. He got it, and did that, and it did nothing. Meanwhile, every small business person in the country became afraid of his radicalism and refused to hire or invest. No surprise there. “Every man for himself” is a two-edged sword, and Obama has caused 'every man" to go into “self-protective mode”.
That is rather misleading. Kind of like telling the Germans what a mess Berlin was in 1945 after we tore it up. Of course we had a reason to tear it up, but that’s not the point. Anyway, Obama took office in late January of 2009, at which time, the unemployment rate was 8.2% (US Dept of Labor Statistics, February, 2009). While it has risen almost 1 percent since that time to 9.1 % (US Dept of Labor Statistics, Sept, 2011), it pales in comparison to the meteoric rise during the Bush administration (4.1 full percentage points between January, 2001 and the day Bush left office. A rise of 1 percent in the past 3 years represents a significant slowing of the momentum in the growth of unemployment as opposed to the Bush years. In March of 2007, the unemployment rate was 4.4%. In less than two years, it nearly doubled under the Bush Administration to the 8.2 percent mark left for the oncoming administration to deal with. That’s a 3.6 percentage point gain in unemployment under Bush in two years, as opposed to less than 1 percentage point under Obama as of September. That means that the rate of growth in unemployment has slowed by an amazing seventy-five percent under the Obama administration, in spite of how difficult it is to turn such a trend around.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
That is rather misleading. Kind of like telling the Germans what a mess Berlin was in 1945 after we tore it up. Of course we had a reason to tear it up, but that’s not the point. Anyway, Obama took office in late January of 2009, at which time, the unemployment rate was 8.2% (US Dept of Labor Statistics, February, 2009). While it has risen almost 1 percent since that time to 9.1 % (US Dept of Labor Statistics, Sept, 2011), it pales in comparison to the meteoric rise during the Bush administration (4.1 full percentage points between January, 2001 and the day Bush left office. A rise of 1 percent in the past 3 years represents a significant slowing of the momentum in the growth of unemployment as opposed to the Bush years. In March of 2007, the unemployment rate was 4.4%. In less than two years, it nearly doubled under the Bush Administration to the 8.2 percent mark left for the oncoming administration to deal with. That’s a 3.6 percentage point gain in unemployment under Bush in two years, as opposed to less than 1 percentage point under Obama as of September. That means that the rate of growth in unemployment has slowed by an amazing seventy-five percent under the Obama administration, in spite of how difficult it is to turn such a trend around.

Your friend
Sufjon
Apparently there are differences in reported statistics. There are also differences in opinion about why the unemployment rate continued to climb after Obama’s election, going up a full point between the election and the day he took office, and all the while Bush was practically his lap dog. Please do not assume that I, or anyone else who opposes Obama, automatically approves of everything Bush did.

Some would say the fast increase after the election was due to the expectation of what Obama had in store for the country, and further explains why the unemployment and investment rates simply don’t improve despite there being a tremendous amount of money sitting on the sidelines.

Obama might be a growing disappointment to some of his more left-leaning followers, but he is in no way a disappointment to small business people, who fully expected him to be their enemy and have not been disappointed in that expectation. Trouble is, those are the people who create most jobs, and upon whom recovery is always dependent.

I know lots and lots of them. I know lots of community bankers too; people who want to loan money to small businesses to hire people, invest and expand. But the story is always the same. “Too risky. I’m standing pat.” Talk to a community banker. He or she will tell you that nearly all the business lending they are doing is on rate-induced refinances and very short-term borrowing. The same is true of farmers and ranchers. They’ll borrow to get a crop in, or to prepare livestock for market, then pay off. Why buy more farm land or ranch land or even borrow money to improve what you have (an endless process) when Obama thinks you’re 'rich" if you make $200,000 in one year (maybe lose money next year) and wants to tax you more. That’s the money you have to pay your land mortgage with. (yes, interest is deductible, principal is not). And you see the federal government grow and grow and look at the salaries in government and you know, as sure as you know your own name, that you’re the one who is going to have to pay for it.

And why not stand pat? Sure, interest rates are incredibly low right now for business loans. But business loans are always fairly short term. When will that 3.5% rate become 13.5% or 23.5% due to the overspending? It will spike, and everybody knows it. You won’t borrow in an environment like this. You’ll try to pay down your existing debt as fast as you can before the interest rate spike you know is coming, and that’s exactly what most are doing. If your business is highly energy-dependent and Obama openly promises to make energy costs go up and does everything in his power to do so, with or without congress, are you really going to invest in processes that require energy? Transportation? No, you’ll stand pat with what you have, and hope you can afford the higher energy and transportation costs that are coming at you like a bullet. Are you going to hire people, knowing full well that your health insurance costs are going up because of mandates and will go up even more? When Obama wants to allow people to sue you as an employer if you prefer one prospective employee over another and the one you prefer is the one who has worked continuously while the other hasn’t, are you really going to feel that it’s a good idea to even start the process? And some business people even know that high deficits discourage exports, which they do, and Obama has yet one more big deficit spending bill for the benefit, largely, of unions, just like the “stimulus bill”. And while Obama has been laying low with “card check” for now, who really wants to take on new people who could be coerced in their homes by union organizers to unionize your business without your being able to even be part of the conversation? You wouldn’t. You would stick with the loyal people you have, and hope for the best.

And worst of all, small business people of all sorts expect it to get significantly worse if obama is re-elected in 2012. I don’t know a single one who doesn’t. He won’t be facing re-election then, and won’t have to pretend anything anymore.

The only amusing part about all of it is that a lot of business people have learned the word “kulak” who didn’t know it before. Lots more know what it means now, and they know it means them.
 
Seriously, does anyone really believe that there is not already the “World” control of money? The World Bank and the IMF have been around for quite some time now. The multi-national businesses and the multi-national bankers have also been at the controls for years. So, the Pope’s call to me is somewhat tardy.

As a Catholic, I listen to the Pope in matters of faith. When he speaks I listen. But in his pronouncements of things secular, I listen to my conscience and the way we do things here in America. I don’t like “one world” anything. I am an American citizen and believe that our Constitution offers the best hope for liberty and a successful life.
 
Regardless of the merits of this proposal, didn’t the Bishop of Rome know this would be catnip for nutty conspiracy theorists? I can just imagine the Jack Chick pamphlet and the apocalyptic, fundie, anti-Catholic “sermons” this will inspire!

I know they’re serious, but it almost feels like some massive inside joke the Vatican is playing on the world (just almost!)
 
To some Muslims…

There is a statement in Scripture in the Old Testament that prophesized that the Messiah would be zealous for the House of the Lord…The Lord was protecting the sacred place of the Temple, which Islam built its mosque over.

They had animals in there…they were marketing goods…

It wasn’t about usury…

I wish Muslims would realize they are not being taught authentic and historic Christianity. but through competitive, adversarial lens of politlcal Islam. Stop trying to dominate Christians with disinformation.
 
Apparently there are differences in reported statistics.
I used what I felt to be the most reliable source I could find - US Dept of Labor Statistics. Since their reports can swing the stock market 300 points in an afternoon, I am apparently not alone in that assessment.
There are also differences in opinion about why the unemployment rate continued to climb after Obama’s election, going up a full point between the election and the day he took office, and all the while Bush was practically his lap dog.
He was never Obama’s lapdog. He was the lapdog of the neocons.
Some would say the fast increase after the election was due to the expectation of what Obama had in store for the country, and further explains why the unemployment and investment rates simply don’t improve despite there being a tremendous amount of money sitting on the sidelines.
Some may say it, but I doubt it. The money sits on the sidelines because of greed, avarice and fear of doing anything creative or risky. This country wasn’t built by the timid.
Obama might be a growing disappointment to some of his more left-leaning followers, but he is in no way a disappointment to small business people, who fully expected him to be their enemy and have not been disappointed in that expectation.
I am a business person who would be interested in seeing some facts that would make me fear the president’s policies. I rather like them. My business is thriving. I am starting some new ones too. In what way are any of the president’s policies ***in fact ***impacting these people, aside from t he head fake they have given themselves?
I know lots and lots of them. I know lots of community bankers too; people who want to loan money to small businesses to hire people, invest and expand. But the story is always the same. “Too risky. I’m standing pat.” The same is true of farmers and ranchers. They’ll borrow to get a crop in, or to prepare livestock for market, then pay off. Why buy more farm land or ranch land or even borrow money to improve what you have (an endless process) when Obama thinks you’re 'rich" if you make $200,000 in one year (maybe lose money next year) and wants to tax you more. And you see the federal government grow and grow and look at the salaries in government and you know, as sure as you know your own name, that you’re the one who is going to have to pay for it.
-Farmers are victims of Monsanto and Cargill. They have been for 25 years. They are not victims of democrats. They are victims of large agricultural giants and their K Street lobbyists. That will never change.

-Those of us who make over $200,000 year don;t consider ourselves rich, you are right about that. No one thinks they have enough. But if you look at the broad spectrum of the world’s population, we certainly are rich. We are the one percent in this country alone. We should pay our fair share in taxes. I do, and I don’t mind. I am ready and willing to pay more. Back to the original thread, it’s the other 99.9999% of the world that the Pope has to consider when he makes a statement. Against that backdrop, he made the right assessment. I think Christ would be quite pleased with him as well.

-Growth in the Federal Government is simply growth. It is not intrinsically good or bad on it’s face value. It is good or bad in relation to how those added resources are employed.
A If your business is highly energy-dependent and Obama openly promises to make energy costs go up and does everything in his power to do so, with or without congress, are you really going to invest in processes that require energy? Transportation? No, you’ll stand pat with what you have, and hope you can afford the higher energy and transportation costs that are coming at you like a bullet. When And some business people even know that high deficits discourage exports, which they do, and Obama has yet one more big deficit spending bill for the benefit, largely, of unions, just like the “stimulus bill”. And while Obama has been laying low with “card check” for now, who really wants to take on new people who could be coerced in their homes by union organizers to unionize your business without your being able to even be part of the conversation? You wouldn’t. You would stick with the loyal people you have, and hope for the best.
And worst of all, small business people of all sorts expect it to get significantly worse if obama is re-elected in 2012. I don’t know a single one who doesn’t. He won’t be facing re-election then, and won’t have to pretend anything anymore.
The only amusing part about all of it is that a lot of business people have learned the word “kulak” who didn’t know it before. Lots more know what it means now, and they know it means them.
Sounds like you have run into a lot of unimaginative people. I built my business without any help from banks - just my imagination and courage. I own all my own assets. If my business was an energy hog like some of the people you mentioned, I would find alternatives, and you don’t have to buy alternatives. You can think of your own. The lighting in one of my facilities is provided by used 2 litre soda bottles filled with water interspersed in the ceiling, amplifying sunlight even on a cloudy day. Got the idea when I replaced the roof. Next time I need a roof replaced, I’ll have another lighting system like that. It’s bright too. The answer is to think. For every problem, there are solutions, and you can make your own. As for unions, you’re probably in a state that’s cold 8 months out of the year. Not my thing. Plus, my employees are happy.I have a non-hierarchical structure, where every employee has a sense of ownership, and fairness in the distribution of earnings. Greed is what gets people in trouble.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
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