Vatican calls for Central World Bank

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To some Muslims…

There is a statement in Scripture in the Old Testament that prophesized that the Messiah would be zealous for the House of the Lord…The Lord was protecting the sacred place of the Temple, which Islam built its mosque over.

They had animals in there…they were marketing goods…

It wasn’t about usury…

I wish Muslims would realize they are not being taught authentic and historic Christianity. but through competitive, adversarial lens of politlcal Islam. Stop trying to dominate Christians with disinformation.
The problem was the moneychangers at the Temple had a corner on the market on the half-shekel and charged as much as they wanted for the exchange of foreign currency to the half-shekel, and most of the time they took serious advantage of that.

Why was this so important and serious?

Exodus 30:11 The LORD also said to Moses, 12 “When you take a census of the Israelites who are to be registered, each one, as he is enrolled, shall give the LORD a forfeit for his life, so that no plague may come upon them for being registered. 13 Everyone who enters the registered group must pay a half-shekel, according to the standard of the sanctuary shekel, twenty gerahs to the shekel. This payment of a half-shekel is a contribution to the LORD. 14 Everyone of twenty years or more who enters the registered group must give this contribution to the LORD. 15 The rich need not give more, nor shall the poor give less, than a half-shekel in this contribution to the LORD to pay the forfeit for their lives. 16 When you receive this forfeit money from the Israelites, you shall donate it to the service of the meeting tent, that there it may be the Israelites’ reminder before the LORD, of the forfeit paid for their lives.”

Foreign currency usually had a graven image, and was absolutely not allowed as payment. Hence, the moneychangers took advantage of their fellow Jews and became “lovers of money.”

Consider last week’s Sunday reading of the Gospel:

Matt 22:15 Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech. 16 They sent their disciples to him, with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. And you are not concerned with anyone’s opinion, for you do not regard a person’s status. 17 Tell us, then, what is your opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?” 18 Knowing their malice, Jesus said, “Why are you testing me, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin that pays the census tax.” Then they handed him the Roman coin. 20 He said to them, “Whose image is this and whose inscription?” 21 They replied, “Caesar’s.” At that he said to them, “Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.”
 
Regardless of the merits of this proposal, didn’t the Bishop of Rome know this would be catnip for nutty conspiracy theorists? I can just imagine the Jack Chick pamphlet and the apocalyptic, fundie, anti-Catholic “sermons” this will inspire!

I know they’re serious, but it almost feels like some massive inside joke the Vatican is playing on the world (just almost!)
Are Chick tracts read all around the world, how about fundie, anti-Catholic sermons and nutty conspiracy theories, are these Fundamentalist views world wide or part of US culture? I don’t know, but somehow I don’t see these getting a lot of traction in Europe.
 
I don’t know, but somehow I don’t see these getting a lot of traction in Europe.
Probably not in modern Europe given that it is increasingly secular and atheistic. Anti-Catholics in Europe would have other reasons for disliking the RCC (and they’d dislike Protestantism for much the same reasons).
 
Well, we already have an International Monetary Fund and Bernanke prints money for not only the US banks but foreign banks as well.

Too much focus on interest rates and not enough on overleveraging, IMO.
 
trevor…thanks for good info…but we have been taught where I come from that Jesus was upholding the integrity of His Father’s house…that He had zeal for the sacredness of the Temple…

The money changers and all their produce were driven out of the temple, but the Lord did not mistreat the animals…
 
trevor…thanks for good info…but we have been taught where I come from that Jesus was upholding the integrity of His Father’s house…that He had zeal for the sacredness of the Temple…

The money changers and all their produce were driven out of the temple, but the Lord did not mistreat the animals…
Of course my friend. I’m always of the position, like of our Church, that issues like these should be viewed as an and/both rather then an either/or.
 
The entire Whore of Babylon system created by the fundamentalists requires a successful EU for the anti-Christ to be in charge of with the Catholic Church supporting it. If the EU implodes their entire prophetic system implodes with it.
Good point, but they’d find something else convenient. Hal Lindsey has made a career of continually predicting incorrectly that the Second Coming is really really soon. His show is really amazing in that he’ll take anything and frame it in context of his purpose. The Van Impes aren’t as smooth at it, mostly because the wife smiles too much when she reads stories about famines.

The one and only time I called the 3ABN’s “get saved / donate money” phone line was when Hal Lindsey argued that modern Russia was the Gog and Magog of the Old Testament. I actually feel bad about the ribbing I gave the person who picked up the phone, expecting either a donation or a new convert. She probably wasn’t expecting me to tell her how far of a walk it is from Kiev to Jerusalem or that an army would never try to trek across two mountain ranges and the shores of a sea to raid a desert community, or that it would take an army at least a month to march the 1,300 miles.

Maybe China woudl be teh new Babylon.
 
Seriously, does anyone really believe that there is not already the “World” control of money? The World Bank and the IMF have been around for quite some time now.
The largest players in money are speculators like Soros and very large trading houses, but even these giants fall - like SocGen and Lehman a few years back. As much as you’d think the IMF and World Bank control things, they’re really pretty ineffective. Both are development agencies more than anything and their more often a means for “The West” to exert control over lesser developed nations. Consider them a U.N. with the ability to send analysts instead of soldiers. George Stiglitz wrote a scathing critique in “Globalization and its Discontents”, which is not the easiest read but probably the most accessible on the subject if you’re not pursuing grad school in econ.

is there control? Yes, to a point, but it’s not unidirectional. It’s a small group of large players, a large group of small players, and the rest of us having only marginal influence.
The multi-national businesses and the multi-national bankers have also been at the controls for years. So, the Pope’s call to me is somewhat tardy.
Arguably the Papal calls for social justice and reform went back to the mid-19th century (or to teh 18th, if you include calls to end slavery), though this is the first time there has been a Vatican commission expressing support for a central bank. It’s a very contemporary piece because it speaks to proposals currently underway in Europe.
I am an American citizen and believe that our Constitution offers the best hope for liberty and a successful life.
I’d agree. It helps to remember that the Church isn’t a democracy and so we shouldn’t expect all solutions suggested by the Church to be through democratic means. It may help to put such secular pronouncements in the frame of morality and ethics so that concrete actions are examples of moral living taken to an institutional level.
 
Too much focus on interest rates and not enough on overleveraging, IMO.
I prefer the central bank to be independent of the legislature, but man when fiscal authority spends like this, it really constrains monetary authority. If Congress spends and Bernanke lets the money supply remain where it is, velocity increases, interest rates leap and the cost of borrowing could bankrupt the government. But if Bernanke increases money supply to match the new velocity, he only encourages the behavior.

Of course, neither situation is helped by such a high savings rate. Too much money seeking returns. So we have bubbles in metal, bubbles in markets, bubbles in debt, and “stimulus spending” has little effect because extra money goes to necessities first and savings next.
 
Are Chick tracts read all around the world, how about fundie, anti-Catholic sermons and nutty conspiracy theories,…I don’t see these getting a lot of traction in Europe.
They won’t. Anti-Catholicism in Europe is mainly anti-religion. Chick-lovers have unique historical and cultural causes in the U.S. I think there’s some strong circulation in Africa and parts of South America, but this is taking advantage of ignorance in communities lacking in education. Because Chick’s fundamentalism - both message and medium - is anti-intellectual, it won’t take hold in Europe.
 
I think that Christians are missing the big picture here:

If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you. You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit.(Leviticus 25:35-37)

And so, with regard to the literally millions of people worldwide who have lost their jobs due to the current financial crisis and subsequently have not only lost their ability to pay their various loans but have become so poor that they cannot afford to feed their families without welfare, what then would be the “Christian” thing to do to help them?

Why is the Church not demanding or at least requesting that the “too big to fail” banks do the “Christian” thing and forgo the interest payments on all loans?

Incidentally, the things which have created such devastation and havoc in the financial markets like ‘compound-interest’, ‘mortgage-baked securities’, ‘credit default swaps’ etc. are all considered forms and instruments of usury and so I really do not understand why anyone from the 99% of the population should be saying anything good about usury (which the 1% loves so much that they are totally unwilling to even consider forgiving the interest payments supposedly due to them from the other 99%).

Again I ask, what would be the “Christian” thing to do with regard to usury in order to help untold millions of people who have become poor as a result of the world’s financial crisis?.. And perhaps this answer can be relayed to the Pope and others in the Vatican.
 
…As for unions, you’re probably in a state that’s cold 8 months out of the year. Not my thing…
Sufjon:

Your posts are always a good read. I can never anticipate the directions you will take on a topic, but I have to say, you totally lost me here.

You are seeing a causal relationship between climate and unionization? And what is “not your thing”? The cold climate? (I totally agree with that, BTW) Where are you located?

Regards,

JHow
 
The big picture is not that an interest-based banking system is a problem. The big picture, from a Christian perspective, is how to reduce deprivation in a lasting and sustainable fashion, while also ministering to immediate needs.
Why is the Church not demanding or at least requesting that the “too big to fail” banks do the “Christian” thing and forgo the interest payments on all loans?
Because the delinquency rate in the U.S. is only around 10%. To forgo interest payments on all loans is overkill, fails to reward behavior that is expected (paying on time), and can cause catastrophic damage to Banks that are “too big to fail”. I agree we need rework on many of the 10% that are delinquent, and that efforts by the government and banks have generally been half-hearted, too little, and too inconsistent. But the need to fix the 10% doesn’t legitimate ending the 90%.

If the Christian initiative is taken from Lev 25 (or the other passages that you cite) then the Christian initiative is to end foreclosures or at least introduce serious and real remedies to households who are behind on their payments. The Christian thing is not to forgo interest where mortgage payments are affordable and households are not in danger of missing payments. Even Banks that are “too big to fail” will fail if they do not receive revenue because they themselves must make their own debt payments, including paying their own employees.

Let’s take an alternative perspective - in lieu of an interest-based lending regime, how would the foreclosure crisis be handled differently in an Islamic lending regime? Under Islamic banking, mortgage payments are considered as leases on property that is owned by the bank, with a portion of each periodic payment going towards eventual purchase of the property. From my understanding, these mortgages are priced similarly to prevailing interest rates on conventional mortgages but are amortized in a form that is different from pure interest calculation. The form of a mortgage in a shari-a based financial system is thus not interest based, but in content it is nearly indistinguishable.

An Islamic banking system would avoid the use of variable-rate mortgages, and Islamic banks would not seek capital in the form of credit-rate swaps or other interest-rate derivatives, but otherwise would not differ from a Western banking system. In other words, foreclosures in an Islamic banking system would increase as unemployment increases and household finances suffer, just the same as in a Western banking system. And Islamic banks with unoccupied housing in a depreciating market face the exact same problems as Western banks.

If we see a difference in foreclosure rates between Western and Islamic banking systems, it reflects a different perspective towards money and personal finance in these systems, not the presence or absence of the interest mechanism. Americans and Europeans are spendthrifts who are comfortable borrowing heavily. Most Muslims, I’d gather from the research I’ve read, are not, and debt within Islamic societies carries a heavy social penalty, or may not be allowed at all. If Islamic bankers are more skittish about lending that Western bankers, then we’d expect to see lower default rates purely as a result of that skittishness without regard to any other factors.
Incidentally, the things which have created such devastation and havoc in the financial markets like ‘compound-interest’, ‘mortgage-baked securities’, ‘credit default swaps’ etc. are all considered forms and instruments of usury
No, these are not usury in the Christian understanding. Compound interest doesn’t push anyone in the hole - it’s the means by which cash investments grow and is functionally no different from reinvesting the profits from a loan into the debtor’s business in Islamic financing.

Mortgage-backed securities only became a problem because too many investors - buoyed by irrational expectations that housing values would never drop and mortgage delinquencies would not rise - bought into them so that overall exposure to mortgage payments became a systemic issue. This is no different from excessive investment by otherwise-responsible Islamic banks into one industry (say, oil or soybeans or communication technology) that decreases diversification such that when that one industry suffers unexpectedly, all Islamic banks are pulled into crisis.

Credit default swaps are actually a means of protection against asymmetric portfolio exposure. Speculators who have no ownership in credit portfolios but who bought into credit default swaps deserved to lose their shirts, the same way that speculators in foreign exchange swap futures must understand they’re risking 100% of their investment.

The main problem in the U.S. has been untenable debt financing. Debt, when managed well and kept to a minimum, causes no problems and enables a higher rate of growth and prosperity by opening capital purchases sooner. Without access to consumer credit markets, we’d be like Japan - paying rent for 25 years until we’ve saved enough to purchase a house with cash. Mortgages - whether Islamic or Western - allow consumers to purchase homes and live in them while paying them off, enabling them to enjoy a higher standard of living for the same cost. What I mean by this is that the mortgage on our three-bedroom 1500 sq-ft home would rent a two-bedroom 900 sq-ft apartment in our town. Yes, I’ve priced this.
 
Sufjon:
You are seeing a causal relationship between climate and unionization? And what is “not your thing”? The cold climate? (I totally agree with that, BTW) Where are you located?
I’d guess Sufjon is thinking primarily of construction-related unions whose work is heaviest in times of warm weather. Maybe even longshoremen who probably see heavier shipping in the warmer months while colder weather forces some shipments to more southern ports. Other unions - teachers, police, machinists - aren’t weather-dependent.
 
… Americans and Europeans are spendthrifts who are comfortable borrowing heavily…
“Well, there’s your problem!”, as they are wont to say on Mythbusters.

Yet, when we try to boost our savings rate, somehow “hoarding” gets dragged into the argument (as in the document under discussion).
 
I think that Christians are missing the big picture here:

If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you. You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit.(Leviticus 25:35-37)

And so, with regard to the literally millions of people worldwide who have lost their jobs due to the current financial crisis and subsequently have not only lost their ability to pay their various loans but have become so poor that they cannot afford to feed their families without welfare, what then would be the “Christian” thing to do to help them?

Why is the Church not demanding or at least requesting that the “too big to fail” banks do the “Christian” thing and forgo the interest payments on all loans?

Incidentally, the things which have created such devastation and havoc in the financial markets like ‘compound-interest’, ‘mortgage-baked securities’, ‘credit default swaps’ etc. are all considered forms and instruments of usury and so I really do not understand why anyone from the 99% of the population should be saying anything good about usury (which the 1% loves so much that they are totally unwilling to even consider forgiving the interest payments supposedly due to them from the other 99%).

Again I ask, what would be the “Christian” thing to do with regard to usury in order to help untold millions of people who have become poor as a result of the world’s financial crisis?.. And perhaps this answer can be relayed to the Pope and others in the Vatican.
You speak as if everyone in the world of banking and finance are 100% Christian. They’re not, by any stretch of the imagination. It’s unreasonable to even think that anything that Christians or the Pope could do, or say, that would easily convince all of the atheists and other non-Christians that make up the majority of the world’s banking industry to change their policies, just because the Pope nicely asked them to do so. They’d either completely ignore him, or laugh in his face, just like you would.

As far as your repeated quote from the Bible goes, you haven’t even answered the many other responses to that exact quote that you posted before. Most of those people that lost their homes were the ones that took loans that they already knew they could never pay back, either because they were allowed to do it by unscrupulous bankers, or because they thought they could get away with it because they were naive enough to believe what they were told. In many cases, it was their own fault that they ended up in the situation they’re in as a result of greed on both sides of the aisle. You can’t blame Christians or the Pope for that. (Catholicism and the rest of Christianity regularly preaches against greed of all kinds, as well as any other sinful practice.) I doubt you could ever say that those who were involved on either side were 100% Christian, either. So, you can stop blaming Christians for the pathetic state of the world of finance.

What about all of the money that Muslims have stashed away in their own banks, from selling all of that oil in the Middle East? If you’re so concerned about all of those poor people, why don’t you practice what you preach and suggest to them that they should practice charity and help out all of those unfortunate people by paying off all of their loans for them? I’m sure they could easily do that, with all of their multiple billions. Wouldn’t that go a long way in improving their public image? Or, they could just cut the price of oil in half, as a means of improving the entire world economy, as a gesture in good faith. Just a thought. It makes at least as much sense as your idea, doesn’t it? 🤷
 
…Most of those people that lost their homes were the ones that took loans that they already knew they could never pay back, either because they were allowed to do it by unscrupulous bankers, or because they thought they could get away with it because they were naive enough to believe what they were told. In many cases, it was their own fault that they ended up in the situation they’re in as a result of greed on both sides of the aisle. …
Let’s be clear about what the situation of some of these folks is. If you put little or no money down and paid only a few years of mortgage payments and then walk away from your loan, you have lost far less than the value of the house. The lender has lost far more than you have. The guy who put down a large down payment, borrowed only what he could afford and never missed a payment has also likely lost more as he watches his property value slide southwards. If we are seriously interested in the common good, then the effects on all need to be considered.
 
I used what I felt to be the most reliable source I could find - US Dept of Labor Statistics. Since their reports can swing the stock market 300 points in an afternoon, I am apparently not alone in that assessment.

He was never Obama’s lapdog. He was the lapdog of the neocons.

Some may say it, but I doubt it. The money sits on the sidelines because of greed, avarice and fear of doing anything creative or risky. This country wasn’t built by the timid.

I am a business person who would be interested in seeing some facts that would make me fear the president’s policies. I rather like them. My business is thriving. I am starting some new ones too. In what way are any of the president’s policies ***in fact ***impacting these people, aside from t he head fake they have given themselves?

-Farmers are victims of Monsanto and Cargill. They have been for 25 years. They are not victims of democrats. They are victims of large agricultural giants and their K Street lobbyists. That will never change.

-Those of us who make over $200,000 year don;t consider ourselves rich, you are right about that. No one thinks they have enough. But if you look at the broad spectrum of the world’s population, we certainly are rich. We are the one percent in this country alone. We should pay our fair share in taxes. I do, and I don’t mind. I am ready and willing to pay more. Back to the original thread, it’s the other 99.9999% of the world that the Pope has to consider when he makes a statement. Against that backdrop, he made the right assessment. I think Christ would be quite pleased with him as well.

-Growth in the Federal Government is simply growth. It is not intrinsically good or bad on it’s face value. It is good or bad in relation to how those added resources are employed.

Sounds like you have run into a lot of unimaginative people. I built my business without any help from banks - just my imagination and courage. I own all my own assets. If my business was an energy hog like some of the people you mentioned, I would find alternatives, and you don’t have to buy alternatives. You can think of your own. The lighting in one of my facilities is provided by used 2 litre soda bottles filled with water interspersed in the ceiling, amplifying sunlight even on a cloudy day. Got the idea when I replaced the roof. Next time I need a roof replaced, I’ll have another lighting system like that. It’s bright too. The answer is to think. For every problem, there are solutions, and you can make your own. As for unions, you’re probably in a state that’s cold 8 months out of the year. Not my thing. Plus, my employees are happy.I have a non-hierarchical structure, where every employee has a sense of ownership, and fairness in the distribution of earnings. Greed is what gets people in trouble.

Your friend
Sufjon
First, you are to be congratulated for creating a business without having to borrow money. Few can do that.

Congratulations also for thinking of the soda bottle lighting thing. I’m sure it saves you money, and you have found a way to prevent their leaking, expanding, contracting or oxidizing. But you can’t melt aluminum that way, or extrude it to make windows or operate presses. You can’t process poultry, make alloys or shape steel or even haul, cut and plane timber, or ship to Canada or Mexico or China without using a good deal of energy.

I’m not sure the people I know are all that unimaginative. I know some who have developed entirely new processes for doing some remarkable things. Most people who can make a competitive product are not stupid people, nor do you have any particular reason to assume you are smarter than they are.

No, I’m not in a state where it’s cold 8 months of the year. More like one where it’s warm for about 8 months of the year. And that relates to unions how?

If you have gotten the impression that farmers are the victims of Monsanto or Cargill, you don’t know very many successful farmers. I’m talking about real farmers. Sure, some few will gripe about patented seed or something, but then most of them will take advantage of that very product in order to grow, e.g., things like Roundup Ready grain or upland or dryland corn. Farmers don’t buy those products because they are forced to. I could buy non-patented seed in five minutes over the phone. They buy them because they will make more in using them. Strange to tell, such people can actually figure out how to profit from those products and processes, though weather, of course, can trip them up no matter what they’re raising.

I recognize that you are justly proud of the fact that you don’t borrow money. But if you are a small manufactory or a farmer, it’s extraordinarily difficult to expand without doing it. Borrowing for business purposes is an integral part of economies, and has been since before the memory of man runs. Study it, you’ll see. That’s actually part of the skill; knowing when you can borrow and make the process pay for the borrowing. When your government promises to increase your costs arbitrarily and unpredictably, having nothing to do with the nature of the process itself, you don’t want to borrow because you can’t pencil out how to make the enterprise work. Additional taxes on such people come directly from their ability to repay principal obligations.

If you feel it’s the moral thing to do to pay more of your income to the government, then by all means do it. But it’s wrong to decree that everyone else can do it just because you feel yourself able to do it, because you can’t possibly know the circumstances of those others. And it’s just as wrong to condemn them as greedy for the sole reason that they are not just like you.

And what in the world makes you think nobody but you has happy employees? Are you assuming that? And you say you net more than $200,000/year. That’s good. Does everyone in your employ make $200,000/year?
 
Let’s be clear about what the situation of some of these folks is. If you put little or no money down and paid only a few years of mortgage payments and then walk away from your loan, you have lost far less than the value of the house. The lender has lost far more than you have. The guy who put down a large down payment, borrowed only what he could afford and never missed a payment has also likely lost more as he watches his property value slide southwards. If we are seriously interested in the common good, then the effects on all need to be considered.
You’re right. I guess I was painting with a very broad brush to make the point that many of those people were guilty of overstating their income in order to buy a bigger, fancier house that they knew they couldn’t really afford. I’m definitely not an expert in economics, by any means. I was mostly responding to the poster’s remarks about those people being viewed as ‘the poor’ that should be forgiven their debt because of that fact. While there probably are some that would fall into that category, not all of them would. 😊
 
Hamba…

I am needing to get back to read through the emails…

Do you know the history of Christianity…history.

Are you aware that the greatest, long standing charitable organization in the world is the Catholic Church?..

Your religion does not allow you to study our faith and practice objectively. Catholic Christianity started hospitals, schools, hospices, universities for the average person…Catholic schools provide education for Muslims in the world where they have been allowed to exist.

Giving alms to the poor has been the way of life of Christianity for 2,000 years, and it has given freely to Muslims and others who are not Christian.
 
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