Vatican Calls for Global Authority on Economy

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Pork_Roll said:
You people crack me up. When the church teaches something that challenges your preconceived notions on how best to run the economy, you assume the world is comming to end. Here’s some advice: turn glen beck and fox news off and read some of the encyclicals on social teaching of the church, you might learn something.
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That’s the question: is “the Church”, in fact, teaching that countries like Greece that find themselves in financial difficulty should be bailed out by a world central bank?

That’s certainly the impression that the press stories are conveying.

Or is this merely one vatican group led by a left-leaning cardinal trying to influence the direction of the Church? And if that’s the case, would it be inappropriate for those of us who disagree with them to argue against that position?

This is a discussion worth having.
 
_Abyssinia said:
But the anti Catholic conspiracy theorists who stereotyped the Catholic Church did so before this document was authored.

I agree with you that the two Cardinals who authored the document should of used different language perhaps, they should know the anti Catholicism that exists and the hatred for the Catholic Church in certain conspiracy theories.
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So why do you think they did it? Do they believe in the “good in men”, that if we can just all agree on the same thing, everything will be okay? Do you think they really believe that if we allow a few men to make all the decisions, then everything will turn out all right? Does this sound the least bit plausible to you? Is it just a matter of using different language? Why write this document at all?

None of this makes any sense if you want to believe that it is truly an attempt at solving the world’s economic problems. Not coming from the Catholic Church.
 
Pork_Roll said:
You people crack me up. When the church teaches something that challenges your preconceived notions on how best to run the economy, you assume the world is comming to end. Here’s some advice: turn glen beck and fox news off and read some of the encyclicals on social teaching of the church, you might learn something.
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Glenn Beck doesn’t have a show on Fox news anymore. I don’t see why people are not allowed to question the document, since it is not an encyclical. Some people are concerned about the language that is used in the document because it plays into conspiracy theories.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
That’s the question: is “the Church”, in fact, teaching that countries like Greece that find themselves in financial difficulty should be bailed out by a world central bank?

That’s certainly the impression that the press stories are conveying.

Or is this merely one vatican group led by a left-leaning cardinal trying to influence the direction of the Church? And if that’s the case, would it be inappropriate for those of us who disagree with them to argue against that position?

This is a discussion worth having.
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There is no dogma involved here. This document did not come from the Pope, who seems to have no (name removed by moderator)ut whatsover in it. This is not only a discussion worth having, it is a discussion all Catholics must have.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Glenn Beck doesn’t have a show on Fox news anymore. I don’t see why people are not allowed to question the document, since it is not an encyclical. Some people are concerned about the language that is used in the document because it plays into conspiracy theories.
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Exactly.
 
In a world of instant (and often erroneous) communication, it’s sometimes best to take a break from the keyboard and let things settle a bit. Go outside. Thank God for the sunshine, or the clouds. Look up and realize that the sky isn’t falling.
 
A_Catholic said:
There is no dogma involved here. This document did not come from the Pope, who seems to have no (name removed by moderator)ut whatsover in it. This is not only a discussion worth having, it is a discussion all Catholics must have.
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It’s not as simple, though, as papal=dogma and nonpapal=some random Catholic schmuk’s opinion.

This is a document from a cardinal heading a Vatican working group with at least some implied authority.

So while I agree that the immediate subject is worth discussing, also worth discussing is how it came to be that such a paper was issued “from the Vatican” with the authority that implies and what constitutes teaching vs. material for debate.

If the group had merely offered this paper for discussion, and made that clear to the media, I’d be far less concerned. I’d say, ok, that’s your view. This is mine and let’s debate this. (Or, more precisely, we can expect other Catholics more learned than ourselves in economics and theology to voice opinions to the contrary which we are likely to agree with.)
 
sigh
This board has turned into a conspiracy theorists’ haven overnight. Now everyone’s asking, “Isn’t this what happens at the end of the world?” or “Anti-Catholics are right!”

Let us wait, and see what happens. Perhaps we’ll have clarifications; perhaps, in light of opinions, the document will change.

Peace.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
It’s not as simple, though, as papal=dogma and nonpapal=some random Catholic schmuk’s opinion.

This is a document from a cardinal heading a Vatican working group with at least some implied authority.

So while I agree that the immediate subject is worth discussing, also worth discussing is how it came to be that such a paper was issued “from the Vatican” with the authority that implies and what constitutes teaching vs. material for debate.

If the group had merely offered this paper for discussion, and made that clear to the media, I’d be far less concerned. I’d say, ok, that’s your view. This is mine and let’s debate this. (Or, more precisely, we can expect other Catholics more learned than ourselves in economics and theology to voice opinions to the contrary which we are likely to agree with.)
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That’s a very good point. According to Fr. Z, it is a “white paper”, which means it is not from the Magesterium. It is from a “committee” in the Vatican. Has it just been offered for “discussion”? I hope so. But I don’t see how this has anything to do with economics and theology. That’s just the excuse. We are talking about taking away the rights of sovereign nations and handing it over to a small group of people. This seems, to me, the ultimate dream of every despotic dictator who has ever lived.
 
A_Catholic said:
That’s a very good point. According to Fr. Z, it is a “white paper”, which means it is not from the Magesterium. It is from a “committee” in the Vatican. Has it just been offered for “discussion”? I hope so. But I don’t see how this has anything to do with economics and theology. That’s just the excuse. We are talking about taking away the rights of sovereign nations and handing it over to a small group of people. This seems, to me, the ultimate dream of every despotic dictator who has ever lived.
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It would be bad enough, in my opinion, if the cardinal and the working vatican group he headed were merely naive on this point, the they sincerely believe that a world central bank could be created to accomplish their limited aims without subverting subsidiarity.

But if, as you imply, they are aiming to subvert subsidiarity then that is an altogether different, and far graver, matter.

I’m inclined to believe that they are merely naive.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
It would be bad enough, in my opinion, if the cardinal and the working vatican group he headed were merely naive on this point, the they sincerely believe that a world central bank could be created to accomplish their limited aims without subverting subsidiarity.

But if, as you imply, they are aiming to subvert subsidiarity then that is an altogether different, and far graver, matter.

I’m inclined to believe that they are merely naive.
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I hope you’re right. But that is still very dangerous and plays right into the hands of those who would destroy national sovereignty.
 
Full disclosure: I am not in favor of any kind of “global authority” controlling world finance.

But the laugh-out-loud irony of the handwringing here is too much.

Let’s see -

World Authority? Check
Global Currency? Check
In Bed With the Deepest Pockets in the World? Check
Exporting an anti-Christian Culture to Financially Dependent Areas of the Globe? Check

Instead of erupting over what has come out of the bureaucratic halls of the Vatican infrastructure, why don’t we get the plank out of our own eye first and get rid of the Federal Reserve?
 
A_Catholic said:
I hope you’re right. But that is still very dangerous and plays right into the hands of those who would destroy national sovereignty.
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Let’s just hope it is an “Advanced Warning”. After all, these high level Bishops do hear the confessions of world leaders. Perhaps, this “Central Authority” is already planned an in place, coming any day now. And this is an advanced guide to these fellas.

Admittedly, I don’t know, and I do find this “Proposal” troubling at the least. I feel like I have been hit on the head with a two X four, and as such, I am grasping for possible explanations.
 
Chipper said:
Let’s just hope it is an “Advanced Warning”. After all, these high level Bishops do hear the confessions of world leaders. Perhaps, this “Central Authority” is already planned an in place, coming any day now. And this is an advanced guide to these fellas.

Admittedly, I don’t know, and I do find this “Proposal” troubling at the least. I feel like I have been hit on the head with a two X four, and as such, I am grasping for possible explanations.
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Surely the problem is with poorly controlled and overtly greedy banks and governments which allowed bubbles to be created. A body created to help avoid such problems in the future could help. Perhaps such a body sounds terrible for some capitalists who wish to have their cake (religion) and eat it ($$$) but it’s not said that such a body would form, nor that even if formed it would have any significant power nor that it would not be pro-free market but oppose certain practices which impede free market economics. The free market is there to solve problems but it seems not to be able to solve them at present.

Of course those Catholics wishing to leave the Church may do so. Some people leave over divorce, others over abortion, others over pornography, yet others over perceived threats to their $$$.
 
Fr. Federico Lombardi, the press spokesman for the Vatican, was noticeably circumspect in his comments on the document and its weight. As indeed he ought to have been. The document doesn’t speak for the Pope, it doesn’t speak for “the Vatican,” and it doesn’t speak for the Catholic Church.

The author of the document, Cardinal Peter Turkson, president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, told the press when he presented it that the document was intended to “make a contribution which might be useful to the deliberations of the upcoming G-20 meeting.”

“This brief document from the lower echelons of the Roman Curia no more aligns “the Vatican,” the Pope, or the Catholic Church with Occupy Wall Street than does the Nicene Creed. Those who suggest it does are either grossly ill-informed or tendentious to a point of irresponsibility.” ~George Weigel

nationalreview.com/corner/281140/pope-chaplain-ows-rubbish-george-weigel
 
Tenofovir said:
yet others over perceived threats to their $$$.
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Not quite.

Revelation 13:17
“…and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark.”

The only way that can happen in today’s world, is through a Central Financial Authority. I can’t speak for everyone’s concerns, but to limit it to just personal money concerns, falls short of the MARK.
 
A_Catholic said:
I understand exactly where you are coming from, and I wish I could call it just “stupid.” But these are not stupid men behind the document, unfortunately. Why would the Catholic Church ever be involved in calling for a global anything, especially when there are such wicked men in high places, men who call for “population control” and acceptance of homosexuality, men who denounce the Catholic Church? We are making a pact with the devil.
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Well the Catholic Church, by definition, calls for global religious affiliation with Rome, so there’s already an innate sensibility that borders, ultimately, are meaningless to the END good of man. This is not to say that a global authority wouldn’t result in:
  1. Population Control
  2. Acceptance of Homosexuality
  3. Denunciation of the Church
Oh wait - that’s the current system. I have news for you: The disease has already metastasized. We just keep pumping Tylenol to keep the fever down, but the internal organs are damaged beyond repair, in some cases. At some point, key organs will outright fail, and the patient will die in his bed.

The question, then, will be how to rebuild the global economy from the ashes of this inferno created by corruption, greed, and the idolatry of economic power? There are two possible outcomes:
  1. Outbreak of asymmetric world war as nations rush to secure natural resources that will be the new global currency, crushing the poorest nations and their inhabitants in the process or
  2. A global economic body that can provide a way to clear the toxic debris and re-start the economic engine of what is indisputably become a GLOBAL economy.
Let’s not forget, we have benefited almost incalculably from the globalization of finance. The “economic sovereignty” flag should have been tossed onto the field LONG ago, if we were going to toss it. Anyone who thinks we have economic sovereignty has never heard of OPEC or China.

In addition, from a theological standpoint, Catholics need to stop listening immediately when people start yakking about Revelation and New World Order and then impute the Church herself as being some sort of catalyst. That’s DISPENSATIONALIST NONSENSE. That kind of drivel has seeped into the thought process of some very prominent Catholics who don’t know their scripture and are thrilled by sensational plot lines. It’s not true. It won’t happen that way. And if you read Revelation correctly you will see that financial ruin is the proper punishment of mankind for our immeasurable sins. First comes the Horseman of the Truth (the White Horse; the Gospel proclaimed); then the Horseman of Evil (the Red Horse, or, the rejection of the Gospel proclaimed); then the Horseman of Financial Ruin (the Black Horse) comes next; Then “Death”, or War (the Pale Horse). Then either God lets the cycle start again (man is humbled and accepts the Gospel) or time’s up. It’s a rather well-proven blueprint in history. We just don’t know WHEN the last round is going to be called.

Please listen to what the Church is saying. We may not like THIS particular bit of press coming out of this particular organization within the Church, but *Caritas in Veritate *hints at the same. If we’re going to be intellectually honest, the only kind of Global Authority we like is when it’s run by the Chairman of the Federal Reserve and everyone takes our dollars and credit cards overseas. If the Church is suggesting that we work towards a NEW global authority that rights the wrongs of the current bunch, then we should not be quick to dismiss it as a surrender of liberties, which, by the way, we gave away LONG ago for the sake of an out of control spending binge that put us where we are today.
 
Both the council’s President, Cardinal Peter Turkson, and Vatican Press Secretary, Fr. Federico Lombardi, made it very clear that the statement was “not in any way the opinion of the pope”, but solely that of the Pontifical Council of Justice and Peace and those that composed it.

Read more from Michael Severance at the Acton Institute blog blog.acton.org/archives/26862-vatican-releases-note-on-global-financial-reform.html

Samuel Gregg from the Acton Institute is also helping to clarify what this document is about.
blog.acton.org/archives/26865-vatican-economic-analysis-incomplete-says-gregg.html
 
Chipper said:
Not quite.

Revelation 13:17
“…and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark.”

The only way that can happen in today’s world, is through a Central Financial Authority. I can’t speak for everyone’s concerns, but to limit it to just personal money concerns, falls short of the MARK.
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How BLESSED you are not to have lived through a World War. You know there are worse things than a financial crisis. 50 million people died last time, most were civilians. Don’t bring Revelations into this.
 
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