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Peter_J
Guest
Presumably they would not, since Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam. However, Muhammed is not a part of the Christian religion any more than, say, Buddha is.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I can’t say whether Geller intended to smoke out some terrorists who, sooner or later, would have killed innocent people; possibly a lot of them. She did, though.
Possibly this italian newspaper, semi-connected to the Vatican, or even the Vatican spokespersons we sometimes see who seem sometimes to be more “European” than “Catholic”, just don’t understand this in the context of American issues.
Free speech is guaranteed by our constitution; something that’s not too common in the world. And as near as I can tell, Geller knew she would draw fire from westerners in having this exhibit and contests. Her point, or so I gather, was to demonstrate to westerners generally and to Americans particularly, how easily we accede to Sharia and will even toss over our own constitutional principles in acceding to it if we feel social, political or deadly pressure to do so.
Nothing in the world other than Sharia (and a modern version of it at that) says I can’t draw a cartoon character of Mohammed. People do it with Christian figures all the time;sometimes with a malicious intent and sometimes only with a humorous intent. How many “St. Peter at the Gates” cartoons have we seen over the years? How many “Hand of God”, “Voice from the Clouds”, etc, etc, etc cartoons? Hundreds, maybe thousands.
A lot of us tumbled awfully easily. What, one wonders, is next?
Possibly this italian newspaper, semi-connected to the Vatican, or even the Vatican spokespersons we sometimes see who seem sometimes to be more “European” than “Catholic”, just don’t understand this in the context of American issues.
Free speech is guaranteed by our constitution; something that’s not too common in the world. And as near as I can tell, Geller knew she would draw fire from westerners in having this exhibit and contests. Her point, or so I gather, was to demonstrate to westerners generally and to Americans particularly, how easily we accede to Sharia and will even toss over our own constitutional principles in acceding to it if we feel social, political or deadly pressure to do so.
Nothing in the world other than Sharia (and a modern version of it at that) says I can’t draw a cartoon character of Mohammed. People do it with Christian figures all the time;sometimes with a malicious intent and sometimes only with a humorous intent. How many “St. Peter at the Gates” cartoons have we seen over the years? How many “Hand of God”, “Voice from the Clouds”, etc, etc, etc cartoons? Hundreds, maybe thousands.
A lot of us tumbled awfully easily. What, one wonders, is next?
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Miss_Felicity
Guest
I think it comes down to respect. You don’t have to agree with or condone another religion but you should not go out of you way to mock or disrespect it. It is common knowledge how Islam views Muhammad, the respectful thing to do would be to not go there with the cartoons and such.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Why don’t Christians kill those who insult Christ?
Could it be that Jesus Christ taught to love your enemies, while Mohammed taught that you should kill your enemies?
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christofirst
Guest
You and I might indeed be able to make jokes and rib each other about different aspects of our faith. From what I’ve read, not all Orthodox have such an enlightened sense of humor as you, and so as a Catholic I would refrain from mocking the Orthodox in general - out of respect. The same goes for Islam. Perhaps that sounds I’m being weak in the face of terrorism, but of course not all Muslims are terrorists. Maybe that sounds like I’m un-American, because I’m not making full and constant use of my right to free speech. There can also be virtue in voluntary restraint. Do you honestly think that these insulting cartoons of Mohammed will make any Muslim reevaluate their faith and come to see the truth of Christianity? Or do we snigger at such cartoons just to make ourselves feel better in some way, and if so, is that a Christ-like response?
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hasantas
Guest
So according to your faith the human side of Jesus was not a prophet? Or with His human nature Jesus was a common man? If you assume Jesus as a common man so you insult Jesus! With His human nature(indeed Jesus was just human) Jesus performed the work of prophethood, did not He?
If Jesus or Moses are being insulted so Muslims will respond in same way. Because rejecting or insulting one of prophets means reject or insult faith.
Indeed it is not importand what you think about Islam and prophet Muhammed but our responsibility is notifying the truth.
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hasantas
Guest
I said Muhammed is recognised because of His position! What was His position?
He conveyed Qur’an and laws of Islam. Billions of people got faith through prophet Muhammed. He was the seal and greatest of the prophets. I mentioned Muhammed was just a human but He performed divine positions so He is recognised as divine. And that being divine is in the name of Allah otherwise Muhammed is just a human. And Who attribute divine attributes for a human ( as Christians do for Jesus) so they are in a huge Shirk!
He conveyed Qur’an and laws of Islam. Billions of people got faith through prophet Muhammed. He was the seal and greatest of the prophets. I mentioned Muhammed was just a human but He performed divine positions so He is recognised as divine. And that being divine is in the name of Allah otherwise Muhammed is just a human. And Who attribute divine attributes for a human ( as Christians do for Jesus) so they are in a huge Shirk!
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hasantas
Guest
So the majority of the world disagree with you too!
Do you decide that? Who are you?
Every attack on prophet Muhammed is scorning Jesus. I agree that the violence disturb everybody. The scorning a prophet is the most pitiless violence so we must stop that initially. If Chritians are servant of God so Muslims are too. Non one is superior above other! I do not say Muhammed is divine by Himself! Muhammed was dive as much Jesus was.
I do not say Muhammed is divine by Himself but because of His position. So he was divine because being of prophet as others prophets were. Islam rejects all kinds of Shirk. If some say such thing: Muhammed had attributes of God then that is the most mortal sin of Shirk! Why painting is restricted in Islam is other issue.
A truthful Muslim did never do such thing like that! Christians depict Jesus and worship Him. That is Shirk! So the retaliation against painting is not ridiculous.
Nobody approve killing and violence. So we should solve that propblem in a peaceful way. For instance you should try to understand why Muslims get so angry. But Muslims never insult any prophet. That is slander.
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hasantas
Guest
So Christians kill less than Muslims? Do you wish to estimate numbers?
If some commit a crime so it is punished. If you love people then do not insult their prophet! Where is your love? Or is your love supposedly?
When enemy attack Islam allow to retaliate but when enemy settle peace Islam order to treat in the best way. You slander prophet Muhammed. In Hadiths prophet Muhammed say if you do not love each other(believers) you cannot have a real faith.
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Kurisu35712
Guest
The attitude of charity and respect towards other belief systems is indeed important, and in general, Catholics and all Christians should seek to foster productive discussion with believers in other faiths. Through peaceful discussion, we may even start them on a path to conversion to the true Church.
However, there are at least several people in the world today who deem it appropriate and justifiable to commit murder because they were offended by a cartoon. I do not care who you are, and I do not care what you believe in, this is never an acceptable response. For those who would react to criticism with violence, peaceful and rational discussion and acceptance of their beliefs does not work. They are in such a spiritual state that they would take another human’s life because they were offended.
There are certainly several ways to address this discrepancy in action versus reaction. Artists who use their talents to criticize this mindset are doing so for a simple reason. They are told that they cannot draw this or else they will be killed. This is a command being imposed upon them by someone who has no right whatsoever to do so. And so they disobey. They draw the cartoons. They make their criticism known. And in doing so prove that they cannot be cowed into appeasing someone who has no right to threaten them. In doing so, they illustrate, quite literally, that you cannot threaten them into surrendering their rights.
These cartoons were not made to offend the majority of reasonable, civil, and frankly normal Muslims in the world. These cartoons were made to challenge the audacity of extremists who believe they can impose their will upon other people. They cannot. And frankly, if we allow them to out of a false sense of charity and respect, they will continue to threaten any number of people for any perceived slight.
If extremists who would endanger their souls to murder another human over a drawing want their beliefs respected, it is their responsibility to offer the same respect for those who would criticize them. And if they cannot handle that, then the cartoons will continue.
However, there are at least several people in the world today who deem it appropriate and justifiable to commit murder because they were offended by a cartoon. I do not care who you are, and I do not care what you believe in, this is never an acceptable response. For those who would react to criticism with violence, peaceful and rational discussion and acceptance of their beliefs does not work. They are in such a spiritual state that they would take another human’s life because they were offended.
There are certainly several ways to address this discrepancy in action versus reaction. Artists who use their talents to criticize this mindset are doing so for a simple reason. They are told that they cannot draw this or else they will be killed. This is a command being imposed upon them by someone who has no right whatsoever to do so. And so they disobey. They draw the cartoons. They make their criticism known. And in doing so prove that they cannot be cowed into appeasing someone who has no right to threaten them. In doing so, they illustrate, quite literally, that you cannot threaten them into surrendering their rights.
These cartoons were not made to offend the majority of reasonable, civil, and frankly normal Muslims in the world. These cartoons were made to challenge the audacity of extremists who believe they can impose their will upon other people. They cannot. And frankly, if we allow them to out of a false sense of charity and respect, they will continue to threaten any number of people for any perceived slight.
If extremists who would endanger their souls to murder another human over a drawing want their beliefs respected, it is their responsibility to offer the same respect for those who would criticize them. And if they cannot handle that, then the cartoons will continue.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Christians are not instructed to kill non Christians in the bible.
Mohammed instructed his followers to kill.
Do you deny this?
The apostle said, “Kill any Jew that falls into your power.” Thereupon Muhayyisa leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time, though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed [the Jew] Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, “You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?” Muhayyisa answered, “Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.” This was the beginning of Huwayyisa’s acceptance of Islam… [Huwayyisa] replied exclaimed, “By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvelous!” and he became a Muslim. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 554)
List of people Mohammed ordered killed:
wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad
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Rohzek
Guest
I think such cartoons and the responses probably do make many Muslims stop, pause, and reconsider some or all aspects of their faith. Whether or not they choose Christianity is another story altogether. It might inflame many more, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
There might be virtue in restraint, but again, such virtue is difficult to empirically measure.
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Peter_J
Guest
I don’t think we Christians would refer to Jesus as a prophet – that would be misleading since he is God. (Muslims wouldn’t refer to Allah as “a prophet” right?)
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SuperLuigi
Guest
I have to admit, I am rather confused. Mohammed is not a prophet, and not one in Catholic teaching.
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SteveVH
Guest
I seems to me that we are speaking of two different things; related, but different.
The people in the U.S. must stand up to protect our right of free speech and that means protecting anything anyone wishes to say, regardless of how outrageous it may be to one group or another. This is something so fundamental to our country and absent in most, if not all, Muslim countries
But, while this freedom is absolutely necessary, we also have a responsibility to use freedom only for good. We are free to do what we ought, and no more. I think there must be another way to exercise our freedom of speech and make the point. We should not have to offend anyone in the process. I support the reason the cartoon contest was held. I deplore the cartoons themselves. I deplore to the nth degree the attempt to murder those taking part in the contest.
As Christians, we should be held by a higher standard than what may be allowed by our government. It’s not ok to do what the Westboro Baptist Church does, for instance, even though they have the legal right to do it. We should keep that in mind when we denigrate the central religious figure of another faith tradition. Not cool.
And no! It is not alright to come and shoot us, even if you are offended. The Christian religion is attacked all the time; there are so-called pieces of “art” hanging in galleries that are completely offensive, so much so that I won’t mention them here. But we don’t run out and gun down the creator of that offensive crud. We are instead suppose to pray for him or her.
The people in the U.S. must stand up to protect our right of free speech and that means protecting anything anyone wishes to say, regardless of how outrageous it may be to one group or another. This is something so fundamental to our country and absent in most, if not all, Muslim countries
But, while this freedom is absolutely necessary, we also have a responsibility to use freedom only for good. We are free to do what we ought, and no more. I think there must be another way to exercise our freedom of speech and make the point. We should not have to offend anyone in the process. I support the reason the cartoon contest was held. I deplore the cartoons themselves. I deplore to the nth degree the attempt to murder those taking part in the contest.
As Christians, we should be held by a higher standard than what may be allowed by our government. It’s not ok to do what the Westboro Baptist Church does, for instance, even though they have the legal right to do it. We should keep that in mind when we denigrate the central religious figure of another faith tradition. Not cool.
And no! It is not alright to come and shoot us, even if you are offended. The Christian religion is attacked all the time; there are so-called pieces of “art” hanging in galleries that are completely offensive, so much so that I won’t mention them here. But we don’t run out and gun down the creator of that offensive crud. We are instead suppose to pray for him or her.
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hasantas
Guest
1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer’s inkhorn by his side;
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 ¶And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8 ¶And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me. Ezekiel 9.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:14-18
20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:20-21
10 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children.
11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. Judges 21:10-11
17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19
I can explain the orders of Muhammed but do you can explain that verses?
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hasantas
Guest
You are right! A human cannot be God as God may not be human.
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hasantas
Guest
If Muslims denigrate(Muslims never do!) Jesus so will you tolerant toward and pray for them?I seems to me that we are speaking of two different things; related, but different.
The people in the U.S. must stand up to protect our right of free speech and that means protecting anything anyone wishes to say, regardless of how outrageous it may be to one group or another. This is something so fundamental to our country and absent in most, if not all, Muslim countries
But, while this freedom is absolutely necessary, we also have a responsibility to use freedom only for good. We are free to do what we ought, and no more. I think there must be another way to exercise our freedom of speech and make the point. We should not have to offend anyone in the process. I support the reason the cartoon contest was held. I deplore the cartoons themselves. I deplore to the nth degree the attempt to murder those taking part in the contest.
As Christians, we should be held by a higher standard than what may be allowed by our government. It’s not ok to do what the Westboro Baptist Church does, for instance, even though they have the legal right to do it. We should keep that in mind when we denigrate the central religious figure of another faith tradition. Not cool.
And no! It is not alright to come and shoot us, even if you are offended. The Christian religion is attacked all the time; there are so-called pieces of “art” hanging in galleries that are completely offensive, so much so that I won’t mention them here. But we don’t run out and gun down the creator of that offensive crud. We are instead suppose to pray for him or her.
Killing may be applicable during war and self defending and it is false totaly in other manner. So the punish of the painting must not be killing. We must condemn it.
But insulting a faith is not a right. One’s freedom finish in where the other’s freedom starts. When some insult other’s right, honour, moral pesrsonality etc then the one being insulted has justice of general damages.
So insulting Islam is not a right. You can criticise but insulting is not a right. Perhaps painting is a right and usual for non-Muslim but for Islam it is a fault. There are many things which is not a crime at all but in your country may those be considered as crime. So I cannot say it is not a crime for me if that issue concern both sides!
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I said Christians. Your quotes are from the Old Covenant, not from Christ.
Compare Christ, God in the flesh, to Mohammed. Read their words.
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