- Status
W
Wowbagger
Guest
Not that I’m going to give an emailed statement by some Vatican committee a whole lot of doctrinal weight, but good for them anyway! We need all religions to condemn these Qu’ran burnings, not just Muslims and not just liberal secular Protestants. The opinion of the Vatican is the kind of thing that carries weight in these matters, and it could hardly express itself in stronger terms than here.
P
PatrickSebast
Guest
When conservatives and liberals across the board are agreeing that something is a bad idea…
J
JReducation
Guest
The role of the Pontifical Council is not to define doctrine, but to define policy. The policy of the Catholic Church, from the Vatican on down, is that the holy books, sacred places, and holy artifacts of all faiths must be treated with respect and charity. This is not a matter of saying what is right or wrong with Islam. It is a matter of saying what is right and wrong in dealing with people of other faiths. The position of the Vatican is the same as that of the Jews, many Protestants and the Orthodox. This action is wrong at many levels.
Morally, it’s unacceptable. You do not attack a religious community. You certainly do not trigger an unsafe situation for innocent people who are going to get caught in the middle of this rash judgment by the Reverend and the rash response from the Muslim side. You may never abuse freedom. Any use of freedom of speech that fuels hatred is an abuse of that freedom. Freedom of speech is a means to an end, but that end must always be the perfection of love, not the exarcerbation of fear, hatred, misunderstanding and political conflicts. To use one’s freedom, knowing the horrible consequences that can happen and knowing that such use is a violation of another person’s faith is morally wrong. We do not win souls over to Christ by bully tactics.
I’m not saying that you are saying such a thing. I just piggy-backed on your comment about doctrinal weight. The comments of the Commission can certainly be supported by Church doctrines on justice, charity, peace, and reconciliation.
People like St. Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa and John Paul II would be ashamed of Christians who employed such tactics against Islam, not to mention Jesus himself. I hope that no Catholic supports such behavior. It is morally wrong, even if the good Reverend is doing it for the love of God. The end does not justify the means.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
Tsuwano
Guest
Well said, Brother, well said!The role of the Pontifical Council is not to define doctrine, but to define policy. The policy of the Catholic Church, from the Vatican on down, is that the holy books, sacred places, and holy artifacts of all faiths must be treated with respect and charity. This is not a matter of saying what is right or wrong with Islam. It is a matter of saying what is right and wrong in dealing with people of other faiths. The position of the Vatican is the same as that of the Jews, many Protestants and the Orthodox. This action is wrong at many levels.
Morally, it’s unacceptable. You do not attack a religious community. You certainly do not trigger an unsafe situation for innocent people who are going to get caught in the middle of this rash judgment by the Reverend and the rash response from the Muslim side. You may never abuse freedom. Any use of freedom of speech that fuels hatred is an abuse of that freedom. Freedom of speech is a means to an end, but that end must always be the perfection of love, not the exarcerbation of fear, hatred, misunderstanding and political conflicts. To use one’s freedom, knowing the horrible consequences that can happen and knowing that such use is a violation of another person’s faith is morally wrong. We do not win souls over to Christ by bully tactics.
I’m not saying that you are saying such a thing. I just piggy-backed on your comment about doctrinal weight. The comments of the Commission can certainly be supported by Church doctrines on justice, charity, peace, and reconciliation.
People like St. Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa and John Paul II would be ashamed of Christians who employed such tactics against Islam, not to mention Jesus himself. I hope that no Catholic supports such behavior. It is morally wrong, even if the good Reverend is doing it for the love of God. The end does not justify the means.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
manualman
Guest
I agree it is a good idea for the Vatican to weigh in on the improperness of this act.
But a reality check is needed too. Would it even make the news if a group of Saudis held an event to burn a pile of crucifixes? Yeah right. Maybe on page 36 way past the Qaddafi terrorism artciles, Iranian “Death to America” parades, Palestinian parties in the street after 9/11, the latest Al-Qaeda beheadings, a slew of Taliban atrocities and various car bombings, suicide bombings and a sniper attack or two.
A little perspective would be nice too.
But a reality check is needed too. Would it even make the news if a group of Saudis held an event to burn a pile of crucifixes? Yeah right. Maybe on page 36 way past the Qaddafi terrorism artciles, Iranian “Death to America” parades, Palestinian parties in the street after 9/11, the latest Al-Qaeda beheadings, a slew of Taliban atrocities and various car bombings, suicide bombings and a sniper attack or two.
A little perspective would be nice too.
J
JReducation
Guest
Regardless of whether or not the burning of crucifixes were viewed with less concern by the secular world., that does not change the moral law. The moral law is straightforward. You must show respect for the sacred objects, places and writings of religious communities. That includes our own and those of the Mulsims, in this case.
The Church is not saying that we must show support and respect for the infractions of moral laws committed by extremists. She is saying that we must show respect for people, writings, objects and places.
Secondly, moral responsibility for the safety of all people, especially those who are most vulnerable, is imperative. If you know that someone is going to react violently, because previous expeirence has taught you this, then you have a moral duty to avoid it. You have to do the moral good using a moral means.
We must always be very careful not to invoke the victim card and say, “They have to live with the nasty on our part, because they were nasty to us before.” That’s just a revival of “an eye for an eye.” That is one of those laws laws about which St. Paul was speaking under the umbrella of “the old law.” It is no longer permissible for Christians to subscribe to that law. The Reverend should know this.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
and i just dont know why the Vatican is envolved on this. dont we have enough problems?
please!.
J
JReducation
Guest
The Vatican has to be involved in this because it’s immoral and because as a Church we hold Islam in very high esteem. If someone is free to do this to Muslims today, they can do it to Jews tomorrow and Catholics the next day.
This is morally wrong. Believe it or not, there are Catholics out there who are cheering this on.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
I dont doubt it that Catholics are getting involved with many things protestants. they need to stay out of it. we have enough troubles in the CC to deal with.The Vatican has to be involved in this because it’s immoral and because as a Church we hold Islam in very high esteem. If someone is free to do this to Muslims today, they can do it to Jews tomorrow and Catholics the next day.
This is morally wrong. Believe it or not, there are Catholics out there who are cheering this on.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
K
kaid100
Guest
Seems fair enough to me to express their views. I’m with them on this one, but I don’t always agree with what the Vatican says (contraception, I’m looking at you) They’ve got as much right to express their views on the actions of non-Catholics as Jesus was when he challenged the money-changers.
B
Beachcomber
Guest
I’m glad Rome gave its opinion on this and condemned it. Nothing but trouble is going to come of the burning if the guy goes through it. And, it does seem as if he is stubbornly determined to do so.
B
baylee
Guest
Um, what? We do? If so, should we? Aren’t we supposed to be convincing others that the Catholic faith is the one, true faith? And shouldn’t Rome be making statements to that effect…not implying that it’s okay to be Muslim?The Vatican has to be involved in this because it’s immoral and because as a Church we hold Islam in very high esteem. If someone is free to do this to Muslims today, they can do it to Jews tomorrow and Catholics the next day.
This is morally wrong. Believe it or not, there are Catholics out there who are cheering this on.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Added: Just to be clear I am not condoning the burning…but various statements made by the Vatican these days makes it seem that it doesn’t matter what religion you are.
M
manualman
Guest
I understand and agree. But surely this can be done in such a way as to provide perspective as well. Consider the below as an alternative formal statement:
“The Holy See wishes to express concern and disappointment with the choice of the Dove (?) congregation to conduct the inflammatory act of burning Korans as a protest against Islam. While this proposal is a comparitively minor offense as opposed to atrocities such as bombings, mutilations, property seizure, beatings and murder committed by other groups in recent history allegedly in the name of God, the Holy See wishes to reiterate that no act of violence or defamation is compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ, not even comparatively minor ones.”
See how that could have both condemned the act AND kept a sense of perspective?
B
baylee
Guest
I’m actually trying to find the complete official statement. All I can find is bits and pieces of the quote as reported in various articles.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
It is perfectly okay for a Muslim to be a Muslim. Sure, it would be a good thing to convert others to Catholicism, and the Great Commission bids us to try to convert them, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot respect their decision to stay within their own faith - Muslims as well as Protestants and Jews.
The Church has never taught indifferentism. Can you give any examples where you think it has?
B
Bob_Aliano
Guest
How peaceful it could be if Islam had the same tolerant view of other religions!
J
Julianna
Guest
What? Really?
As an American…no, it doesn’t matter what religion you are.
It reminds me of this:
…Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up…
P
PatrickSebast
Guest
Many branches of Islam are extremely tolerant of other religion. In fact many groups, even most of the middle eastern ones believe it is completely possible for others to go to heaven if their good outweigh their bad. The advantage to being a Muslim is that if your good does not outweigh your bad you only go to hell temporarily rather than permanently.
The religion itself is not where the intolerance comes from, it is the culture.
P
PatrickSebast
Guest
There isn’t really a need for a sense of perspective though. In fact from perspective the people are more far more responsible for their actions since they are misrepresenting Christ to the world. The Church has never been one to play those sorts of games. They call what is wrong wrong, and what is right right. No need to justify anyone by telling them the other guys are “more wrong.”
- Status