Vatican Calls Proposed Koran Burning `Outrageous and Grave'

[sidbrown]

The Vatican has to be involved in this because it’s immoral and because as a Church we hold Islam in very high esteem. If someone is free to do this to Muslims today, they can do it to Jews tomorrow and Catholics the next day.

This is morally wrong. Believe it or not, there are Catholics out there who are cheering this on.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

It is great that the Vatican is involved, but I don;t remember reading about the Vatican saying anything about the desecration of the Eucharist on you tube, or about the “art” exhibits which desecrate Mary or Our Lord?
Where is the objection from the Vatican on all of this common, blasphemous use of the name of Our Divine Lord in PG-13 rated movies?

 

[baylee]

It is perfectly okay for a Muslim to be a Muslim. Sure, it would be a good thing to convert others to Catholicism, and the Great Commission bids us to try to convert them, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot respect their decision to stay within their own faith - Muslims as well as Protestants and Jews.

The Church has never taught indifferentism. Can you give any examples where you think it has?

Does it teach it? No. However, the new catechism isn’t as clear about the teaching regarding Outside the Church There is No Salvation. In the Baltimore Catechism it makes it clear at the very least that one must be baptized even when discussing the possibility of salvation outside the church. This is not mentioned in our current one when discussing this dogma.

Regardless, even if we were to give the benefit of the doubt to what is or is not stated in the current catechism, what our Church officially teaches and the perception our Church puts forth are two entirely different things.

Someone just forwarded me an encyclical from Pope Pius VII Diu Satis regarding false apostles and heretical books…he teaches that such books should be burned! Yes, quite a shocker for me…and it makes me pause to re-think things.

Just recently the Vatican Coucil for Interreligious Dialogue sent a letter to Muslims at the end of Ramadan (and I think they do this pretty regularly). It tells them that God will not fail to reward their efforts in their prayers, etc during Ramadan. Doesn’t something like this tell a Muslim…yes, the religion you are practicing is just fine…God will reward you…no need to change. I thought the message of the Catholic Church was supposed to be God wants all to be Catholic.

 

[JReducation]

I understand and agree. But surely this can be done in such a way as to provide perspective as well. Consider the below as an alternative formal statement:

“The Holy See wishes to express concern and disappointment with the choice of the Dove (?) congregation to conduct the inflammatory act of burning Korans as a protest against Islam. While this proposal is a comparitively minor offense as opposed to atrocities such as bombings, mutilations, property seizure, beatings and murder committed by other groups in recent history allegedly in the name of God, the Holy See wishes to reiterate that no act of violence or defamation is compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ, not even comparatively minor ones.”

See how that could have both condemned the act AND kept a sense of perspective?

This would be minimizing. Certainly, burning the Koran is morally less grave to us, but not to the Muslim. The Church must always show respect for the point of view of the other person, even when she holds a different measuring stick.

Um, what? We do? If so, should we? Aren’t we supposed to be convincing others that the Catholic faith is the one, true faith? And shouldn’t Rome be making statements to that effect…not implying that it’s okay to be Muslim?

Yes we do and yes we should. The Muslims are children of Abraham. The Church tells us in the CCC:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

Added: Just to be clear I am not condoning the burning…but various statements made by the Vatican these days makes it seem that it doesn’t matter what religion you are.

That’s not what the Vatican is saying at all. What the Vatican is saying is that these kinds of actions violate the moral law.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

We must acknowledge the good that is in Islam. This does not mean that we accept the error. But this is not the time to point out the error.

I dont doubt it that Catholics are getting involved with many things protestants. they need to stay out of it. we have enough troubles in the CC to deal with.

This is not a Protestant issue. This is moral issue. When you attack the faith of another person, you have violated their religious freedom. It is one thing to evangelize and another to attack. The bar is raised when the actions of these people in FL will potentially endanger innocent lives. Any unnecessary action that places the life of another person in danger is condemned by the Church. This was repeated for the thousandth or more time in Evangelium Vitae and people still don’t get it. Additionally, the Church has to say something for the benefit of Catholics too. There are Catholics who support this kind of behavior and they need to know that this is unacceptable I believe that no one knows this better than a pope who lived through Nazism. He saw what evil hatred can generate if left unchallenged.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wisdomseeker]

Um, what? We do? If so, should we? Aren’t we supposed to be convincing others that the Catholic faith is the one, true faith? And shouldn’t Rome be making statements to that effect…not implying that it’s okay to be Muslim?

Added: Just to be clear I am not condoning the burning…but various statements made by the Vatican these days makes it seem that it doesn’t matter what religion you are.

it seems to me that the CC faith is no longer important. it is getting more confusion than never. according to some all faiths are ok. the CC faith is no longer emphasized. it is better to have peace. i dont know, maybe this is the end. i know that Jesus says that there will be a time which the Ark will be closed and no one will be able to enter or something like that. i cant remember the exact Words.

 

[baylee]

We must acknowledge the good that is in Islam.

Have you read some of the things that Popes have said about Islam hundreds of years ago? One example is Pope Eugene IV. I read that he called Islam the abominable sect of Mohamet. How does abominable=good*?* How did we go from seeing evil in a religion to holding it in high esteem?

 

[sidbrown]

Have you read some of the things that Popes have said about Islam hundreds of years ago? One example is Pope Eugene IV. I read that he called Islam the abominable sect of Mohamet. How does abominable=good*?* How did we go from seeing evil in a religion to holding it in high esteem?

Hasn’t the teaching been changed on this. Catholics no longer consider Islam to be abominable.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Have you read some of the things that Popes have said about Islam hundreds of years ago? One example is Pope Eugene IV. I read that he called Islam the abominable sect of Mohamet. How does abominable=good*?* How did we go from seeing evil in a religion to holding it in high esteem?

no wonder we have so much confusion. what once was tought, it no longer holds true. remember, we all have to be nice now and days. it is no longer about conversion but about nicies. whatever the popes said in the past is no longer regarded as true to the modernists. the holy father has the intention to change things but the modernists still has a hold of the Church. one more reason to stick with Tradition. Tradition is what keep us faifthful to the CC.

 

[sidbrown]

no wonder we have so much confusion. what once was tought, it no longer holds true. remember, we all have to be nice now and days. it is no longer about conversion but about nicies. whatever the popes said in the past is no longer regarded as true to the modernists. the holy father has the intention to change things but the modernists still has a hold of the Church. one more reason to stick with Tradition. Tradition is what keep us faifthful to the CC.

I don’t know. The Catholic religion is a living religion, so aren’t we supposed to go with the teaching of the Church today and not what was taught several hundred years ago?

 

[Julianna]

Does it teach it? No. However, the new catechism isn’t as clear about the teaching regarding Outside the Church There is No Salvation. In the Baltimore Catechism it makes it clear at the very least that one must be baptized even when discussing the possibility of salvation outside the church. This is not mentioned in our current one when discussing this dogma.

Regardless, even if we were to give the benefit of the doubt to what is or is not stated in the current catechism, what our Church officially teaches and the perception our Church puts forth are two entirely different things.

Someone just forwarded me an encyclical from Pope Pius VII Diu Satis regarding false apostles and heretical books…he teaches that such books should be burned! Yes, quite a shocker for me…and it makes me pause to re-think things.

Just recently the Vatican Coucil for Interreligious Dialogue sent a letter to Muslims at the end of Ramadan (and I think they do this pretty regularly). It tells them that God will not fail to reward their efforts in their prayers, etc during Ramadan. Doesn’t something like this tell a Muslim…yes, the religion you are practicing is just fine…God will reward you…no need to change. ** I thought the message of the Catholic Church was supposed to be God wants all to be Catholic**.

Well, welcome to America…here we don’t burn books. You are also referring to a “man” who was born in the 1700’s. I emphasize the word “man” as in “human being”.

Well, the Baptist’s think everyone should be saved, the Pentacostals beleive in speaking in tongues…etc. etc. etc. Different paths, same goal.

 

[Julianna]

Have you read some of the things that Popes have said about Islam hundreds of years ago? One example is Pope Eugene IV. I read that he called Islam the abominable sect of Mohamet. How does abominable=good*?* How did we go from seeing evil in a religion to holding it in high esteem?

The “opinion” of one “man” during the 1400’s. I would like to think that as “human beings” we have evolved enough to understand that we are all children of God.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The “opinion” of one “man” during the 1400’s. I would like to think that as “human beings” we have evolved enough to understand that we are all children of God.

that is not what Jesus tought. Jesus said, my mother and my brothers are those who hears and does the will of God. when has that changed? did not Jesus condemned the pharisees for rejecting Him? when did that change? have we evolved to change the message of God years later?

 

[Julianna]

no wonder we have so much confusion. what once was tought, it no longer holds true. remember, we all have to be nice now and days. it is no longer about conversion but about nicies. whatever the popes said in the past is no longer regarded as true to the modernists. the holy father has the intention to change things but the modernists still has a hold of the Church. one more reason to stick with Tradition. Tradition is what keep us faifthful to the CC.

What is the confusion? The Catholic Church is still the Catholic Church. Tradition is a way to “teach” human beings by “rote memory”. Once it is “learned”, it comes naturally…like once a Catholic always a Catholic. There are some who are always “open” to “learn” new things and to “teach as Jesus did”, vs. becoming stoic and isolated. How can we as “Christians” evangelize if we don’t go out into the world?

Whatever the popes said in the past was based upon opinion, not the true teachings of the Catholic Church or of Christianity itself. Our “traditions, rites and rituals” keep us “focused”, how we apply those traditions, rites and rituals tells the world who we are.

If we stuck with tradition as you see it, we would be sacrificing animals in our back yards and living in caves.

 

[wisdomseeker]

What is the confusion? The Catholic Church is still the Catholic Church. Tradition is a way to “teach” human beings by “rote memory”. Once it is “learned”, it comes naturally…like once a Catholic always a Catholic. There are some who are always “open” to “learn” new things and to “teach as Jesus did”, vs. becoming stoic and isolated. How can we as “Christians” evangelize if we don’t go out into the world?

Whatever the popes said in the past was based upon opinion, not the true teachings of the Catholic Church or of Christianity itself. Our “traditions, rites and rituals” keep us “focused”, how we apply those traditions, rites and rituals tells the world who we are.

If we stuck with tradition as you see it, we would be sacrificing animals in our back yards and living in caves.

so, if the opinions of past popes were wrong, what makes you think that the opinions of the popes today are correctly? there is no new things. there is nothing new under the sun. Tradition is what keeps us in the Truth and not contrary teachings. what was wrong then, it is wrong today. the Truth cannot changed. Jesus himself was clear on this. who are we to change the teachings of Jesus?

 

[Julianna]

so, if the opinions of past popes were wrong, what makes you think that the opinions of the popes today are correctly? there is no new things. there is nothing new under the sun. Tradition is what keeps us in the Truth and not contrary teachings. what was wrong then, it is wrong today. the Truth cannot changed. Jesus himself was clear on this. who are we to change the teachings of Jesus?

Unless you were there at the Last Supper…you don’t know. A hundred years from now the opinions of the popes of our generation will be considered out of touch.

Again, it was tradition to treat women as property. This was going on in the times of the Popes you mentioned, and yet further back than that. The popes of that era spoke from their generation and the culture climate of the day.

There “is” nothing new under the sun…we are still children of God. We sin, we err, we are forgiven.

What was wrong then…

• human beings were slaves
• there was a caste system
• women were property

All the above are wrong today.

The Vatican, rightly so pointed out the outrageousness of the Koran burning…because of the consequences that would (not maybe) befall “Christians”…not necessarily in America, but for sure in the Middle East and in Europe.

 

[baylee]

Seems to me that some are getting confused between tradition with a lower case t and a capital case T. In addition, it was not just one Pope who denounced the religion of Islam. Our religion teaches that all divine revelation ended with (I think) the death of the last apostle. Therefore, how can the religion of Islam all of a sudden now be a religion worthy of high esteem? How can it be a religion that was revealed via God? It was revealed after Christ.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Unless you were there at the Last Supper…you don’t know. A hundred years from now the opinions of the popes of our generation will be considered out of touch.

Again, it was tradition to treat women as property. This was going on in the times of the Popes you mentioned, and yet further back than that. The popes of that era spoke from their generation and the culture climate of the day.

There “is” nothing new under the sun…we are still children of God. We sin, we err, we are forgiven.

What was wrong then…

• human beings were slaves
• there was a caste system
• women were property

All the above are wrong today.

The Vatican, rightly so pointed out the outrageousness of the Koran burning…because of the consequences that would (not maybe) befall “Christians”…not necessarily in America, but for sure in the Middle East and in Europe.

God who knows all things, not us, has laid down laws for man and women. when we think that we know better than our Maker, we get ourselves into a lot of trouble and cannot get out of it by ourselves. i dont follow feminist agenda for liberation of women. women is to be at home raising children and not out in the field competing against men for their jobs. instead of being at home assuming their role in society, they are being disobedient to God and their children are being adopted by gays and lesbians. any way this might be off topic. no one should ever be proud of being disobedient to that One who laid down the laws for us. i dont follow idealistics of this world.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Seems to me that some are getting confused between tradition with a lower case t and a capital case T. In addition, it was not just one Pope who denounced the religion of Islam. Our religion teaches that all divine revelation ended with (I think) the death of the last apostle. Therefore, how can the religion of Islam all of a sudden now be a religion worthy of high esteem? How can it be a religion that was revealed via God? It was revealed after Christ.

 

[Julianna]

God who knows all things, not us, has laid down laws for man and women. when we think that we know better than our Maker, we get ourselves into a lot of trouble and cannot get out of it by ourselves. i dont follow feminist agenda for liberation of women. women is to be at home raising children and not out in the field competing against men for their jobs. instead of being at home assuming their role in society, they are being disobedient to God and their children are being adopted by gays and lesbians. any way this might be off topic. no one should ever be proud of being disobedient to that One who laid down the laws for us. i dont follow idealistics of this world.

oh brother

I’ll send you the names and addresses of women I know who were the housewives and mothers and their husband left them destitute with the children for greener pastures…they (never got an education past high school…because they believed…as you do their “place” was wife and mother in the home)…and you can subsidize their income and help them out.

I wonder how many men out there are competing with women for 80 cents on the dollar that women make.

The Vatican was right in calling the proposed Koran Burning, “Outrageous and Grave”.

 

[wisdomseeker]

oh brother

I’ll send you the names and addresses of women I know who were the housewives and mothers and their husband left them destitute with the children for greener pastures…they (never got an education past high school…because they believed…as you do their “place” was wife and mother in the home)…and you can subsidize their income and help them out.

I wonder how many men out there are competing with women for 80 cents on the dollar that women make.

The Vatican was right in calling the proposed Koran Burning, “Outrageous and Grave”.

and here we are. i am talking about God and you are talking about money. one cannot serve two masters. we cant have everything we want. the Laws of God are more important than money, i hope you can understand this. while women are chasing money, divorce is increasing and children are being adopted by gays and lesbians which is unpleasing to God.

 

[Miserys_Fence]

oh brother

I’ll send you the names and addresses of women I know who were the housewives and mothers and their husband left them destitute with the children for greener pastures…they (never got an education past high school…because they believed…as you do their “place” was wife and mother in the home)…and you can subsidize their income and help them out.

I wonder how many men out there are competing with women for 80 cents on the dollar that women make.

The Vatican was right in calling the proposed Koran Burning, “Outrageous and Grave”.

and here we are. i am talking about God and you are talking about money. one cannot serve two masters. we cant have everything we want. the Laws of God are more important than money, i hope you can understand this. while women are chasing money, divorce is increasing and children are being adopted by gays and lesbians which is unpleasing to God.

Wisdomseeker, I am a widow and the sole support of my children. I find your comments offensive and odious. Do you think my children should live in a cardboard box on the street corner because their father has passed away? Do you think they should be deprived of the advantages that MY INCOME is able to supply? Arrogant, ignorant opinions such as this disgust me no end. People like you are exactly why we have the feminist movement.

If you think I should stay at home, then I invite you to support us financially so I can do so. Make sure you have a lot in ink in your pen when you go to write out that check–I’m a statistical programmer and you’re going to have to write a pretty big number.

Or are you nothing but hot air?

Miz