Vatican Cardinal Ends Debate: No Communion for Pro-Abortion Politicians or Rainbow Sa

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katherine2 said:
1. At papal Masses, those receiving from the pope are not just some tourists who happend to sit in a lucky pew. They are carefully chosen and vetted, for security as well as other reasons.
  1. The Pope is not an idiot. He reads dozens of newspapers every day. As bishop of Rome and Primate of Italy, he knows what’s going on in Italian politics.
  2. Rutelli was the “John Kerry” of Italy – the center-left’s candidate for leader of the country. Not an obscure politican from the countryside.
Having said that, Catholics might respectfully disagree with the Pope on this matter. I am not one of those Catholics, but I respect others so long as they keep their views respectful towards our beloved Holy Father.
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I love Our Holy Father,who said if anyone helps someone to get an abortion or someone has an abortion then they are automatically excommunicated! I have done a thread search and found nothing on this at all.
 
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mjdonnelly:
The excommunication thing is in the Catechism.
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What is Katherine talking about?Do you know?
 
 
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buffalo:
Vatican Cardinal Ends Debate: No Communion for Pro-Abortion Politicians or Rainbow Sashers

Says "Are we going to change Divine Law, how God made us?"

**VATICAN CITY, February 16, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Nigerian Cardinal Francis Arinze, the top Vatican Cardinal in charge of the sacraments of the Catholic Church has made it plain in an on-camera interview with EWTN that pro-abortion politicians may not be admitted to Holy Communion. **

A February 11 EWTN broadcast of the news program, World Over Live, with host Raymond Arroyo, featured an interview with Arinze, the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. The interview covered a wide range of topics, including female altar servers, Latin in the Mass, abortion and the rainbow sash movement.

Arroyo questioned the Vatican Cardinal saying: “Last year, you were asked at a press conference whether a politician, a Catholic politician who supports abortion publicly should be permitted to the Communion rail, should be permitted to receive Communion publicly. What is your response to that?”

Cardinal Arinze responded, “The answer is clear. If a person says I am in favour of killing unborn babies whether they be four thousand or five thousand, I have been in favour of killing them. I will be in favour of killing them tomorrow and next week and next year. So, unborn babies, too bad for you. I am in favour that you should be killed, then the person turn around and say I want to receive Holy Communion. Do you need any Cardinal from the Vatican to answer that?

Laughing, Arroyo responded, “It should be pretty transparent.” To which the Cardinal concluded, “Simple, ask the children for First Communion, they’ll give you the answer.”

**Similarly, Cardinal Arinze ruled out Communion for homosexual activists. **

Arroyo noted that while some US bishops have refused Communion to Rainbow Sash activists, others such as Archbishop Harry Flynn of Minneapolis - St. Paul have not. Flynn, after meeting with Cardinal Arinze in Rome recently, suggested that the Cardinal was open to allowing communion for Rainbow Sash activists.

Arroyo first confirmed the meeting with Archbishop Flynn took place. “Did such a conversation take place between you and this archbishop?,” asked Arroyo, to which Cardinal Arinze responded, “Yes.”

Arroyo followed with “And were you open to allowing this group to receive Communion as he inferred in some of the newspapers.”

The Vatican Cardinal responded, “No, no. You see, let’s get it clear. These rainbow sash people, are they really saying we are homosexuals, we intend to remain so and we want to receive Holy Communion. The question arises; take the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says it is not condemning a person for having homosexual tendency. We don’t condemn anybody for that. But a person stands condemned for acting on it.”

On homosexuality the Cardinal was clear. “The Catholic Church has never accepted homosexuality as normal. You read the scripture. It’s very clear. What exactly are we examining? Are we going to change Divine Law, how God made us?”

**He made a distinction between active homosexuals and those with homosexual tendencies. “Quite another matter if a person had just the tendencies and is making (an) effort to live the Divine Law, then that’s fine. So, we respect persons but be clear on the truth,” he said. **
**## In view of all this, why were and Rupert Murdoch awarded knighthoods ? **

**The Vatican is very inconsistent - and that is putting it very mildly. ## **
 
Gottle of Geer:
## In view of all this, why were and Rupert Murdoch awarded knighthoods ?

**The Vatican is very inconsistent - and that is putting it very mildly. ## **
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**Maybe inconsistent, or maybe just a reasonable variety of opinions. A diversity of viewpoints can be a good thing. **
 
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smeeko:
They could not keep doing what they want, if a clear written note/order came from the Vatican.
A TV interview is great, but there also needs to be approriate formal action taken, so that nobody can say: “I did not see the interview” “I was out of town”.
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Exactly right. A TV interview is no more binding than if you or I bumped into Arinze in the street, and asked him a couple questions. The Church has a process for implementing its teaching authority and disciplines. Regardless of the way buffalo chose to title this thread, this in no way ends debate.

Perhaps in the future, pronouncements and various other forms of Vatican documents will be more explicit on when a politician or other person can and cannot receive communion. But such debate as exists now isn’t really impacted by a stray TV interview.
 
katherine2 said:
**Maybe inconsistent, or maybe just a reasonable variety of opinions. A diversity of viewpoints can be a good thing. **
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**## That is certainly one POV - but the Church should, given the words of the Cardinal, not be honouring a pro-abortion politician, and a man whose papers certainly don’t seem too "“pro-life”. **
Apart from that, yes, I agree - but that is not an argument the Vatican is well-placed to make. ##
 
katherine2 said:
**Maybe inconsistent, or maybe just a reasonable variety of opinions. A diversity of viewpoints can be a good thing. **
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**## That is certainly one POV - but the Church should, given the words of the Cardinal, not be honouring a pro-abortion politician, and a man whose papers certainly don’t seem too “pro-life”. **

Apart from that, yes, I agree - but that is not an argument the Vatican is well-placed to make.

**If the Pope thinks that pro-abortion politicians should be excommunicated, why has he gone and knighted one ? If he gives this sort of mixed signal - how can the rest of us possibly be expected to know what he wants of us ? **
**If the Pope is going to give communion to a pro-abortion politician in Italy, he cannot expect other Catholic bishops to be very convincing when they explain why they will not give communion to other members of the CC. If Rutelli can receive - so can Kerry, Daschle, Kennedy, and all those others. ## **
 
Gottle of Geer said:
**## That is certainly one POV - but the Church should, given the words of the Cardinal, not be honouring a pro-abortion politician, and a man whose papers certainly don’t seem too “pro-life”. **

Apart from that, yes, I agree - but that is not an argument the Vatican is well-placed to make.

**If the Pope thinks that pro-abortion politicians should be excommunicated, why has he gone and knighted one ? If he gives this sort of mixed signal - how can the rest of us possibly be expected to know what he wants of us ? **

**If the Pope is going to give communion to a pro-abortion politician in Italy, he cannot expect other Catholic bishops to be very convincing when they explain why they will not give communion to other members of the CC. If Rutelli can receive - so can Kerry, Daschle, Kennedy, and all those others. ## **
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I am frazzled over the whole thing:nope:
 
You know, I have my differences of opinion with Lisa, but I truly feel bad that this matter is upsetting her. I really don’t want her feeling hurt or alienated over this. It’s not my place to speak for the Pope as to why he gives communion to pro-choice politicians. But I will offer a reflection, for what it is worth.

We had a politician here who got into trouble with the law, accused of doing some bad things (and he was a Democrat!). His defenders kept shouting “innocent until proven guilty; innocent until proven guilty.”

I corrected some of them. Yes, he had the right to the presumption of innocence before a court of law. But that did not mean that a voter could not vote based on whatever standards and evidence seemed proper to the voter as he cast his ballot. The politician had the right to be judged by different standards in different forums, even for the same deed. I, as voter, had every right to believe he was guilty as sin and vote against him based on that judgment (which I did). The Courts, however, were obligated to judge him by a more generous standard.

I have no quarrel with those who voted against Kerry for his very wrong stance on abortion policy. But denial of the Eucharist is a very severe action which, I think, requires every benefit of the doubt, of the potential of ignorance, of the private actions of the inner spirit. When the Pope gives communion to pro-choice politicians, I don’t see in that any approval of abortion or of the lack of laws banning abortion. I just see him using extreme restraint not knowing the mind, reasoning and conscience of public people.

Our pope is a great and holy man. I would hope those who find his actions on this matter troubling, would cut him a little slack on this and devote their focus to the public policy arena rather than the sacramental. I can’t remember if it was Hannibal or one of the Roman generals who said the key to victory is choosing what field you battle on. I think people made a mistake last year by fighting the pro-life cause on the sacramental “battle field” rather than the battle field of reason and public policy. The pro-life cause has solid facts on its side. Its no surprise the pro-abortion people love to engage us on every battle field except the one that this issue is all about – a reasoned debate on the humanity of the unborn. The communion debate was a terrible distraction from the real issues. I think the Pope knows this as well. I pray for him.

I hope Lisa will maintain her pro-life witness while at the same time understanding how difficult it would be for the Holy Father to act differently that he does. I commend Lisa for her dedication to the defense of the unborn.
 
I asked my priest about giving communion to someone he either knows or suspects of being in grave sin. He said that a priest cannot assume anything about their situation. The person may have gone to confession and repented. It is up to the communicant to make things right with God. In the case of proabort politicians, it is always hoped and prayed for that they will repent from their support of this evil act.

Lisa N
 
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