Vatican: Catholics Who Back Abortion Shouldn't Take Communion

  • Thread starter Thread starter estesbob
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
SueG:
Boy, this is too easy. which is worse: having your wallet stolen (anti-poor), finding litter on your lawn (anti-environment), getting punched in the nose(pro-war), or letting an infant get decapitated/burned to death/brains sucked out (pro-abortion)?
I have no idea what you are talking about. Having a wallet stolen? Litter? Punched in the nose?

I’m talking about families who don’t have enough to eat or who have been pushed into poverty because of economic policies that are friendly to industry and the rich. That is anti-poor.

Allowing the logging industry to plow through national parks, or manufacturers to pollute our earth, under the ironically named “Clear Skies Act” all in the name of revenue. That is anti-environment.

And the thousands upon thousands of soliders and innocent civilians who have been killed as a direct result of this administration’s military policies. That is a culture of death if I’ve ever heard of one, and is anti-peace.

Abortion is horrible. But it’s not the only issue that I’m concerned about.

Pete
 
Ani Ibi:
It is however the topic of this thread.
It is the topic of this thread, but as much as I probably disagree with Pete2’s politics, there is a valid reason to consider other sins in the context of this thread.

If other sins are treated the same way, then I would have a higher inclination to think it is a good idea to do the same with voting for pro-choice candidates. If they aren’t, though, I think it’s inappropriate to pick an issue particularly as complex as anything related to politics and single it out as the One Thing Wrong that we will be exercising special care to harp on.

Pete2 expresses concern over the Bush military policies, which I personally do not share. At the same time, I cannot hold myself More Worthy Of Communion because I voted against Kerry and he voted (presumably) against Bush.

Alan
 
As I recall when this was a Big Topic, there were quite a few orthodox Catholics who consciensciously could not vote for Kerry for obvious reasons of pro-choice alignment and public scandal, but also could not vote for Bush for any number of reasons, including that he was not completely pro-life as advertised. Of course, since he tries to moderate his views he seeks to appease, leading to relativistic interpretations of what “pro-life” means.

Therefore, many felt the only way to deal with the five non-negotiables was to vote third party, for a candidate who is an extreme longshot by even the most faithfuls’ views, because they felt they could not negotiate on non-negotiables. Makes a lot of sense to me, but of course if it threw the election to Kerry then we’d all be crowing about how it was These Peoples’ Fault.

As a test of our improving our unity as a happy Catholic family (rather than a dysfunctional one), may I offer the above thought model as a justification for us to refrain from either claiming either side is more or less faithful to Catholicism, or any other ways to judge ourselves, unless we do so to place ourselves below our enemies in order to unleash the power of the Word and the Spirit to exalt us above them, triumphing in love, service, and example.

To serve means to wash their feet.

Given all that, it becomes a matter of a tradeoff between spiritual faith and worldly practicality, because even though we are called to love the one and hate the other, we must be experts at both so we can succeeed in a complex world that has both a real part and an imaginary part. One with physical evidence and one with faith as evidence.

I always wished I could be in debate, but not to the extent that I ever signed up for it. Once a zillion years ago in about fourth grade I wowed the class by running a program for our weekly classroom debates, so instead of debating (which I was deathly afraid of because conflict terrified me – I was total pacivist) I would be the Guy With Last Week’s Results every Monday.

Anyway, I began to see that they would assign Pro and Con to the debate, pretty much regardless or even intentionally against that person’s personal beliefs. Isn’t it funny how when you take the opposite role, you are able to conjure words that suddenly promote your opposition rather than your own view? Working against your view of the truth?

Anyway this is the idea why I jump back and forth on topics, and seem to alienate people I guess. I try looking from both sides, and typically either side has feelings of “differentness” or “separation” from each other. This causes anger, resentment, curiosity, learning, condemning, praising, joining, separating, allying, demarcating, and other emotions, feelings, and thought processes which impede pure speech without subtle messages that corrupt it.

Intellectually we know we are united in the Eucharist but we don’t feel united to each other because we compare the seriousness of each other’s sins like a bunch of kids pointing out each others’ zits.

Now that I have come off like the pompous oaf many think I am, I know we don’t want to insult each other or misrepresent each others’ views or motives. To guess at them is OK, but then either find out by being straightforward and interested in learning or keep in mind You May Be Wrong about your ability to read anothers’ mind.

Alan
 
I think this needs to be said louder… The thing is the Vatican said it “shouldn’t” be taken. That still leaves the decision to the person. Anyways, I think that they need to keep saying these things, maybe then Catholics will get that they mean it.
 
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
It is the topic of this thread, but as much as I probably disagree with Pete2’s politics, there is a valid reason to consider other sins in the context of this thread.Alan
For Catholics, abortion is an absolute. A Catholic may absolutely not vote for a candidate who promotes abortion. Period. End of discussion. Other sins are still serious but, in voting, they can be considered proportionally. So yes, poverty, war, white slavery, oppression of all kinds are serious. The point I am trying to make is that people who do not understand the Church’s teaching on abortion often seem to refute that teaching by claiming that the emphasis should be taken away from abortion and placed on the other issues. The Church says: no abortion. When that is taken care of, then the Church says solve the other problems as well. No way out.

Secondly, people who do not understand the Church’s teaching on abortion often criticize the Church for not working toward ending poverty, war, white slavery, and oppression of all kinds instead of ending abortion. Their priority is all that other stuff first and abortion second. The Church’s priority is abortion and all the other stuff at the same time. The suggestion that the Church is remiss in addressing all that other stuff is absolute baloney. The Church is up to her elbows in this work.

There. I have considered other sins in the context of this thread. It’s done.
 
Bella3502 said:
Besides the inaccurate statistics, what’s your point?

My point has been made. You attempted to play the race card. You failed. Abortion was about eugenics, is about eugenics, and always will be about eugenics. Why? Because it is about killing children on the basis of their not being wanted and then inventing justifications for doing so.
 
40.png
Bella3502:
I would almost agree with you except that this rule only applies to HEALTHY WHITE BABIES…only.
What are you saying Bella?You are against non-white babies being adopted?:mad:
 
Bella3502 said:
Besides the inaccurate statistics, what’s your point?

They are NOT inaccurate abortion is the number one killer of African Americans:nope: :mad: The MILLS are strategically placed in “colored” Low income areas:mad: Why is that BELLA?With all the wonderful social services they promise, are they trying to make sure they don’t have to pay too much and involve themselves witha preemptive strike in the womb?:mad:
 
40.png
Bella3502:
The idea of criminalizing abortion again and telling women that their babies will be adopted is ludicrous, and a big fat lie.

For every white couple that adopts a non white baby here, hundreds go overseas to adopt from Romania, and China…etc. This is reality. You don’t have to agree.

For example, how many white couples go to Africa and adopt children/ babies with AIDS? Very very few. But these same couples pay top dollar to Baby brokers for children with matching skin color. That, to me is sad.
What again are you trying to say?:mad: That you believe women should still engage in MURDERING their children legally?:mad: So your solution is that it is better to be ripped apart in the womb than to take the chance of not being adopted:mad: Brilliant jump!Are you saying that women are justified in murdering their children if they do not know for sure the baby will be adopted?:mad: SHAME:tsktsk:
 
Ani Ibi:
My point has been made. You attempted to play the race card. You failed. Abortion was about eugenics, is about eugenics, and always will be about eugenics. Why? Because it is about killing children on the basis of their not being wanted and then inventing justifications for doing so.
Actually, while the forum was down, I heard an interesting debate on TV Ontario. A professor was drawing a distinction between the forced eugenics of the World War II and the eugenics of choice in our contemporary Brave New World. Wow. Looks like the contemporary kind is about persuading ‘unwanted’ race-delineated groups to commit genocide among themselves. Saves the dominant class the trouble, I guess.

This kind of demoralization really saddens me. In Canada, the group with the highest incidence of abortions is our First Nations peoples. Morgentaler says that the abortions give them a lower crime rate and more ‘wanted babies.’ Wanted by who? Why should First Nations peoples be more concerned about crime than white folk? Oh please First Nations peoples! Don’t be swindled by this double-speak. White man speaks with forked tongue. Have your babies. All of them. The Creator is good.
 
Ani Ibi:
The point I am trying to make is that people who do not understand the Church’s teaching on abortion often seem to refute that teaching by claiming that the emphasis should be taken away from abortion and placed on the other issues. The Church says: no abortion. When that is taken care of, then the Church says solve the other problems as well. No way out.
That’s fine, but that’s an ineffective strategy. Abortion does not exist in a vacuum. It is tied to every other social ill in a very complex way.

Abortion is not the root cause. You are treating the symptoms of the much more fundamental problem of confused sexuality and sexual practices, in particular fornication.

You can jail every abortionist and if we don’t start getting our young Catholics to make a better showing than the general public at chastity then we really don’t have a very good platform to work the abortion problem or any other moral problem.

Alan
 
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
That’s fine, but that’s an ineffective strategy. Abortion does not exist in a vacuum. It is tied to every other social ill in a very complex way.
That’s what I said:

The point I am trying to make is that people who do not understand the Church’s teaching on abortion often seem to refute that teaching by claiming that the emphasis should be taken away from abortion and placed on the other issues. The Church says: no abortion. When that is taken care of, then the Church says solve the other problems as well. No way out.

Moreover what I said is that is that the Church’s teaching on abortion is regularly refuted by claiming that the Church should deal with the agenda of the day first. This selectiveness is what gave rise to the term ‘Cafeteria Catholic.’
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
Abortion is not the root cause.
The root cause of what?
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
You are treating the symptoms of the much more fundamental problem of confused sexuality and sexual practices, in particular fornication.
Am I? The Church’s vision is of the entire Gospel of Life.
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
You can jail every abortionist
’every’ is a bit extreme and again disingenuously selective.
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
and if we don’t start getting our young Catholics to make a better showing than the general public at chastity then we really don’t have a very good platform to work the abortion problem or any other moral problem.Alan
And the way to get our young Catholics to make a better showing is by giving them clear, unequivocal teaching and example. By the way, did you know that Kenya offers women free university tuition if they remain virgins?
 
40.png
AmyS:
I think this needs to be said louder… The thing is the Vatican said it “shouldn’t” be taken. That still leaves the decision to the person. Anyways, I think that they need to keep saying these things, maybe then Catholics will get that they mean it.
:amen:
 
Ani Ibi:
That’s what I said:

The point I am trying to make is that people who do not understand the Church’s teaching on abortion often seem to refute that teaching by claiming that the emphasis should be taken away from abortion and placed on the other issues. The Church says: no abortion. When that is taken care of, then the Church says solve the other problems as well. No way out.
Right, and what I’m saying is you have to pull up the roots with the leaves to kill the weed. Try to put aside our serious chastity problem until we have the abortion problem fixed, and you’ll do nothing but make both worse. Abortion is seen by society as a way to remove side effects from behavior we refuse to control.
Moreover what I said is that is that the Church’s teaching on abortion is regularly refuted by claiming that the Church should deal with the agenda of the day first. This selectiveness is what gave rise to the term ‘Cafeteria Catholic.’
Different people have different priorities. If we worked no issue other than the abortion issue directly, our efforts would be futile.
The root cause of what?
Abortion doesn’t just “happen” like a perfectly innocent young woman (rape victims excluded of course – that’s a different discussion) walked by a clinic and Bam! the abortionist drew her in. First, there are two people engaging in fornication and half the time the guy’s long gone by now. I’m saying to get rid of abortions and the demand will skyrocket. You have to cut the demand by reducing the flow of oiut-of-wedlock baby creations, which I’m guessing are a good number of abortions.
**
‘every’
is a bit extreme and again disingenuously selective.
**
The context here is that one could outlaw all abortions which I assume you want to do? Which “every” abortionist would you leave open?

Let me ask you something? If I’m being extreme by envisioning the ramifications of getting rid of all abortionists, then what is your goal? Is your goal not to do just that?

Of course this is a relativistic protest to a perfectly valid example.
And the way to get our young Catholics to make a better showing is by giving them clear, unequivocal teaching and example. By the way, did you know that Kenya offers women free university tuition if they remain virgins?
I like the idea from Kenya. Do you think the Catholic Church might consider doing that in the United States?

Alan
 
I was just wondering if any of you have seen the Priests for life web site? its at www.priestsforlife.org
On that site, they give many ideas on how to end abortion. what we can all do to help.
Seems to me that if we don’t make ending abortion the priority, then it doesn’t really matter what else we do.
If we aren’t going to protect the most innocent among us, then I don’t think we have a snowballs chance in hell.
Even very good, devout Catholic families sometimes have had daughter’s who have had “sex” outside of Marriage and while we all make mistakes, some more serious than others, if their is no abortion to have, one won’t likely make the same bad decision twice. If everyone is held accountable to have to face the consequences of their sins, then I believe that once they find out how serious it is to raise a child, they will definately be more in line with Church teaching next time they consider it.
 
Ani Ibi:
My point has been made. You attempted to play the race card. You failed. Abortion was about eugenics, is about eugenics, and always will be about eugenics. Why? Because it is about killing children on the basis of their not being wanted and then inventing justifications for doing so.
Make no doubt about it, legal abortion will never be overturned. That being said, it time to address the reasons why women have abortions. Standing outside of an abortion clinic with colorful signs and a bull horn changes nothing.
 
40.png
Lisa4Catholics:
What again are you trying to say?:mad: That you believe women should still engage in MURDERING their children legally?:mad: So your solution is that it is better to be ripped apart in the womb than to take the chance of not being adopted:mad: Brilliant jump!Are you saying that women are justified in murdering their children if they do not know for sure the baby will be adopted?:mad: SHAME:tsktsk:
I said none of the above. I can’t help the way you interpret posts.

As I said in previous posts, abortion will never be made illegal again. Women are not going back to the days of the coat hanger.

I myself, don’t have a solution to the abortion problem. And it is very clear that no one else here on these forums has a viable solution. But there is plenty of misguided talk and even more of these :mad: faces, both of which do nothing for the cause.
 
40.png
Lisa4Catholics:
They are NOT inaccurate abortion is the number one killer of African Americans:nope: :mad: The MILLS are strategically placed in “colored” Low income areas:mad: Why is that BELLA?With all the wonderful social services they promise, are they trying to make sure they don’t have to pay too much and involve themselves witha preemptive strike in the womb?:mad:
Your stats are off because they do not include the clinics and the doctors who run them for the rich, (white) and elite. Guess what - if you have money you can go to the nice clean clinic, have an abortion and go right home to mummy and daddy. Don’t kid yourself, rich women have just as many abortions. You just don’t know about it cause their clinics are nicer, and the doctors don’t report the numbers. You only pay attention to the “abortion mills” in the “colored low income” parts of town, cause they are easier to see.

There are abortion mills in Beverly Hills and the Upper West Side of NYC…
 
40.png
Lisa4Catholics:
What are you saying Bella?You are against non-white babies being adopted?:mad:
Absolutely not. My point is that most white couples with money will go overseas and adopt a child that looks like them before considering adopting a child that does not look like them.

All children deserve homes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top