Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades

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pro_universal:
Look what’s missing: Anything addressing the just war issues at hand.

Apparently you’ve ignored me so well that you’ll respond only to me personally, and not to any of the issues on the thread?

Interesting way of ignoring me…it means you only call me names, and do not say a word about the just war questions that are right there in front of you.

To actually get this back on topic, the above rants and name calling are support for the notion that those who believe in general war against all muslims are not acting out of true concern for the teachings of Jesus, but rather out of deeply bitter emotions and hostility.

I hope any Muslims especially who read this thread will recognize, after cestusdei’s and SPH1’s rants, that there is no defense for their violent positions in our Church. There is only love for Muslims here, and I hope our faiths will be able to work together against the common enemies of ignorance and warfare.
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You’ve out done yourself! A completely self-serving, taunting, preachy sermon which denies the reality of various Islamic threats.

Well done!
 
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SPH1:
You’ve out done yourself! A completely self-serving, taunting, preachy sermon which denies the reality of various Islamic threats.

Well done!
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The reality of various Islamic threats as presented on this thread is that there is no such threat, compared to the threat of homegrown ignorance and hatred.

If there were so much proof that this threat exists, you and cestusdei would easily be able to provide rational explanations for your claims and views.

That your only response is to get angry and start name-calling says more about the emptiness of your claims than I ever could.
 
pro,
I have made a decision. I am going to convert to Islam. Maybe go visit Osama. Then I can talk about blowing innocents up or chopping off heads and you won’t say a word. You would never dare criticize me. You would, instead, help me. Being a Muslim terrorist means never having to say your sorry or justify your actions to a liberal. It will be nice having you defend me for a change. As a Muslim I can kill whoever I want, beat my wives, blow up kids in a pizza joint etc. and know that you will be on my side. Thanks pro. You’re a great friend to us jihadists. I will try to convince them to not cut your head off till last. Don’t try to thank me. You deserve the favor.
 
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pro_universal:
The reality of various Islamic threats as presented on this thread is that there is no such threat, compared to the threat of homegrown ignorance and hatred.

If there were so much proof that this threat exists, you and cestusdei would easily be able to provide rational explanations for your claims and views.

That your only response is to get angry and start name-calling says more about the emptiness of your claims than I ever could.
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You’ve just proved that you don’t live on the same planet as the rest of us if you can’t see any Islamic threats!:whacky:
 
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cestusdei:
pro,
I have made a decision. I am going to convert to Islam. Maybe go visit Osama. Then I can talk about blowing innocents up or chopping off heads and you won’t say a word. You would never dare criticize me. You would, instead, help me. Being a Muslim terrorist means never having to say your sorry or justify your actions to a liberal. It will be nice having you defend me for a change. As a Muslim I can kill whoever I want, beat my wives, blow up kids in a pizza joint etc. and know that you will be on my side. Thanks pro. You’re a great friend to us jihadists. I will try to convince them to not cut your head off till last. Don’t try to thank me. You deserve the favor.
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Again, please quote the posts where I defended Osama or any other terrorists.

This is just more diversion from your own expressions of support for murder. “They do it too!” is not a principle of Just War.
 
Hey pro, you can’t criticize me anymore. Since my conversion I am immune. I can blow up the whole planet and you will support me with a smile. Why pick on us poor muslims? We are soooo…misunderstood and persecuted. Just because we hack off the occasional Christian head or blow up pizza parlours. Pick on those mean Christians who tell us we are wrong to do those things.
 
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cestusdei:
Hey pro, you can’t criticize me anymore. Since my conversion I am immune. I can blow up the whole planet and you will support me with a smile. Why pick on us poor muslims? We are soooo…misunderstood and persecuted. Just because we hack off the occasional Christian head or blow up pizza parlours. Pick on those mean Christians who tell us we are wrong to do those things.
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Why won’t you answer the questions about your own teaching as a Christian?
 
Pro, you are just picking on us poor muslims. Leave us alone to spread peace by killing infidels. Apologize for the crusades again. I always like to hear Christians do that as I sharpen my sword.
 
The first paragraph was all it took to make me choke on something invisible.
 
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cestusdei:
Pro, you are just picking on us poor muslims. Leave us alone to spread peace by killing infidels. Apologize for the crusades again. I always like to hear Christians do that as I sharpen my sword.
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You sound like a cartoon, you really do.
 
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pro_universal:
And I say they were unjust, because they used bloody means to defend an unjust and corrupt regime that treated Christians worse than the muslims did by far.

What kind of just cause is that, to go on a bloody tirade, killing Jews in Europe, robbing the Italians, killing every man woman and child in Jerusalem…in order to defend an empire that made the word “byzantine” what it is today?
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I have a question. In what way were Christians treated worse by the 'byzantines" than by the Muslims?
 
Liberal,
I choke when folks like you bash the US and then blithely ignore what the terrorists do. When a Christian is going to be beheaded you say nothing and complain when I bring the subject up. You say I am mean for mentioning it. That is cartoonish.
 
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Ella:
I have a question. In what way were Christians treated worse by the 'byzantines" than by the Muslims?
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Here’s a short list:

Higher taxes that crippled the middle and lower classes.

Routine torture by government officials for political purposes.

Routine torture by government officials for suspected “heresy.”

Less religious freedom: You had to be the same kind of Christian as the Emperor, or else you faced certain torture.

There’s a reason the term “Byzantine” carries the connotation that it does today. It’s not because life was good under the late Empire.
 
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SPH1:
See my edit above re you and cestus. I’m not going to be sucked down into your bottomless pit of inane argument for its own sake.
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Actually, you’re right. Let’s hope everyone else realizes it sometime as well. This reminds me of that one “Ortho” who was here not too long ago, for any who may remember. This is the exact same kind of thing… don’t waste your time. I’ve already spent too much of mine, and I’m not going to continue down that same bottomless spiral. Not even to respond to the inevitable taunt that will get thrown my way in response to this post.
 
That list of pro’s looks a lot like life under Islamic regimes for Christians. I think I would choose Byzantium.
 
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cestusdei:
That list of pro’s looks a lot like life under Islamic regimes for Christians. I think I would choose Byzantium.
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Great, why don’t you enumerate the list of advantages Byzantium provided, or explain which of my list is wrong.

The higher tax for non-muslims was still lower than the normal tax for Byzantine Emperors.

The religious discrimination was significantly less burdensome under muslim rule than under Byzantine.

Political interference in religious affairs was rife in the Byzantine state; the muslims generally left Christians to administer their own affairs.

Perhaps you want to be specific as to how those facts make life better under the Byzantine empire. Just because it called itself “Christian” is about the only principle I can see behind your preference.
 
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pro_universal:
Great, why don’t you enumerate the list of advantages Byzantium provided, or explain which of my list is wrong.

The higher tax for non-muslims was still lower than the normal tax for Byzantine Emperors.

The religious discrimination was significantly less burdensome under muslim rule than under Byzantine.

Political interference in religious affairs was rife in the Byzantine state; the muslims generally left Christians to administer their own affairs.

Perhaps you want to be specific as to how those facts make life better under the Byzantine empire. Just because it called itself “Christian” is about the only principle I can see behind your preference.
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So you don’t mind paying a higher taxed based on your religion? Oh, that’s right discrimination against Christians doesn’t bother you. As for religious discrimination read Bat Yor and about the rules for dihmmi or ask the copts. At the Phanar one of the gates remains closed because the muslim rulers hung a patriarch there who annoyed them. What nice guys. I think Byzantium gets a bad rap. It wasn’t a democracy, but the Arabs have never had one at all. We owe a lot to byzantine culture. In fact the Arabs stole it to pass it off as their own.
 
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cestusdei:
So you don’t mind paying a higher taxed based on your religion? Oh, that’s right discrimination against Christians doesn’t bother you. As for religious discrimination read Bat Yor and about the rules for dihmmi or ask the copts. At the Phanar one of the gates remains closed because the muslim rulers hung a patriarch there who annoyed them. What nice guys. I think Byzantium gets a bad rap. It wasn’t a democracy, but the Arabs have never had one at all. We owe a lot to byzantine culture. In fact the Arabs stole it to pass it off as their own.
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Paying a higher tax for being a monophysite is certainly a much, much better arrangement than being tortured and killed for being a monophysite or Copt. The Arabs wanted the tax; the Byzantines offered death or recanting, no exceptions.

Byzantium’s treatment of the Copts was worse by far than even the bad treatment they receive today from the Islamist radicals of the 20th century. If you’d like to take a stab at what elements of Byzantine culture became Arab culture, I’d sure like to see it.

Considering that the Emperors were embarking on an extermination campaign against Coptic and Monophysite authorities, I can only conclude that your view of Byzantium is either completely uninformed or completely dishonest.
 
I seem to remember a Copt poster here who evidenced far more dislike for their treatment under Islam then under the Byzantines. You are very ethnocentric when it comes to Islam.
 
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cestusdei:
I seem to remember a Copt poster here who evidenced far more dislike for their treatment under Islam then under the Byzantines. You are very ethnocentric when it comes to Islam.
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Uh, how would a Copt poster be informed as to what life is like in an Empire that ceased to exist approximately 800 years ago?
 
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