Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades

[cestusdei]

That’s a good point pro. It was 800 years ago. To find the kind of oppression you posit today you need to go where? ISLAMIC countries. I don’t need to go back 800 years to find examples of religious persecution. I can choose any number of Muslim nations. I still can’t figure out why you are opposed to freedom of religion.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

That’s a good point pro. It was 800 years ago. To find the kind of oppression you posit today you need to go where? ISLAMIC countries. I don’t need to go back 800 years to find examples of religious persecution. I can choose any number of Muslim nations. I still can’t figure out why you are opposed to freedom of religion.

Once again, you dodge the issue and answer no challenges, only to repeat your accusation that islam is the root of all evil.

The emptiness of your position becomes more clear every time you fail to respond.

 

[cestusdei]

You bring up an ancient empire that no longer exists. I respond with how Christians are killed by Muslims today. Which is more relevant?

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

You bring up an ancient empire that no longer exists. I respond with how Christians are killed by Muslims today. Which is more relevant?

Considering that this is a thread about the Crusades, the ancient empire is more relevant.

Try reading the thread titles before you post.

 

[Contarini]

cestusdei:

That’s a good point pro. It was 800 years ago. To find the kind of oppression you posit today you need to go where? ISLAMIC countries. I don’t need to go back 800 years to find examples of religious persecution. I can choose any number of Muslim nations.

Of course Muslims are still behaving in ways Christians no longer behave, and that’s bad. But since we claim that the Gospel is eternally true, not something that just became true when we learned the ways of modern liberal democracy, the comparison pro is making is a valid one. (I think pro is too hard on Christian regimes, both Eastern and Western, but basically I agree with what he’s saying.) If you could not have said 500 years ago “Catholicism is evil because Catholics burn people at the stake,” you can’t say now “Islam is evil because they occasionally threaten to kill apostates.”

Edwin

 

[pro_universal]

Contarini:

Of course Muslims are still behaving in ways Christians no longer behave, and that’s bad. But since we claim that the Gospel is eternally true, not something that just became true when we learned the ways of modern liberal democracy, the comparison pro is making is a valid one. (I think pro is too hard on Christian regimes, both Eastern and Western, but basically I agree with what he’s saying.) If you could not have said 500 years ago “Catholicism is evil because Catholics burn people at the stake,” you can’t say now “Islam is evil because they occasionally threaten to kill apostates.”

Edwin

Thank you for making my own point more clear than I could!

Perhaps I am too hard on the Christian regimes of history, and I certainly do not intend to make them into cartoon villains. I just think it’s especially important, given the current political climate, to avoid further demonizing muslims.

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

Thank you for making my own point more clear than I could!

Perhaps I am too hard on the Christian regimes of history, and I certainly do not intend to make them into cartoon villains. I just think it’s especially important, given the current political climate, to avoid further demonizing muslims.

I’ve been thinking about what you’ve posted.

I’ve never, ever read or heard that the people in Jerusalem et al. preferred the rule of the Muslims after being conqured.
Do you have some books you could recommend regarding this?

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

I’ve been thinking about what you’ve posted.

I’ve never, ever read or heard that the people in Jerusalem et al. preferred the rule of the Muslims after being conqured.
Do you have some books you could recommend regarding this?

For general information on the problems with the Byzantine System, I would recommend George Ostrogorsky’s History of the Byzantine State

Here are a few primary sources that you can see for yourself (God bless Fordham!):

fordham.edu/halsall/source/yarmuk.html
fordham.edu/halsall/source/642Egypt-conq2.html

Also, a secondary but a good overview of problems in the Christian community:fordham.edu/halsall/med/herrin.html

 

[Ella]

hmmm. I will do some reading. I have a question: al-balahurdi was a historian on the side of the conquerors not the conqured. Do you believe he was unbiased?

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

hmmm. I will do some reading. I have a question: al-balahurdi was a historian on the side of the conquerors not the conqured. Do you believe he was unbiased?

No, but there’s plenty to corroborate his basic accounts.

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

No, but there’s plenty to corroborate his basic accounts.

Like what? I’m open to reading whatever you suggest.

Your premise reminds me of the argument that the black slaves in America were better off than if they had remained free in Africa. I don’t believe that, but some people do.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

Like what? I’m open to reading whatever you suggest.

Your premise reminds me of the argument that the black slaves in America were better off than if they had remained free in Africa. I don’t believe that, but some people do.

That’s not an accurate comparison, because Jews and Christians generally governed themselves under muslim rule. There certainly was discrimination in the imperial administration, but especially from the Jewish communities there were still individuals who rose to the highest ranks.

No, it was not a commune of equals, but it wasn’t anything like American slavery to be under Muslim rule either.

Here’s another source you can read online that details the Byzantine hatred for Jews, and I think gives some insight into why they might want out from under their rule:
fordham.edu/halsall/source/strategos1.html

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

That’s not an accurate comparison, because Jews and Christians generally governed themselves under muslim rule. There certainly was discrimination in the imperial administration, but especially from the Jewish communities there were still individuals who rose to the highest ranks.

No, it was not a commune of equals, but it wasn’t anything like American slavery to be under Muslim rule either.

Well, I’m not comparing the situations of american slaves vs. conquered byzantines; I’m comparing the two premises: one being that slaves were better off by being enslaved, the other that conqured byzantines were better off being conqured. If ‘byzantines’ isn’t the best word I apolgize.
In fact I could also compare the premise that Iraq is better off being invaded and Saddam toppled to these other two premises.
I am not so sure any of these premises have merit.

pro_universal:

Here’s another source you can read online that details the Byzantine hatred for Jews, and I think gives some insight into why they might want out from under their rule:
fordham.edu/halsall/source/strategos1.html

Thank you. I have to run some errands so I can’t post anymore right now, but I will read your links.

 

[cestusdei]

I have talked with Christians in Jerusalem today. They do not like the idea of Islamic rule. The fact is that Christians don’t kill apostates and Muslims do. That is something pro can ignore but not refute.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

I have talked with Christians in Jerusalem today. They do not like the idea of Islamic rule. The fact is that Christians don’t kill apostates and Muslims do. That is something pro can ignore but not refute.

You do lots of claiming about Jerusalem, but there are no sources to support your claim that Palestinian Christians are on the side of the Israelis. That’s likely because you’re not telling the truth.

 

[cestusdei]

I am the source. I was there. But what can I expect from someone who could watch Jewish children blown up and then deny it ever occured. There is no terrorist act that you cannot justify or deny. Head in the sand.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

I am the source. I was there. But what can I expect from someone who could watch Jewish children blown up and then deny it ever occured. There is no terrorist act that you cannot justify or deny. Head in the sand.

Well, you’re certainly not a credible source, and saying you were there doesn’t a) make you actually someone who has been or b) refute the numerous credible sources we do have available, for example, the Mayor of Bethlehem.

If you can provide some objective proof to support your claims, I’d sure like to see it, but I’m at this point certain that you can’t. All your repeated claims in the absence of any verification do is make you look dishonest.

 

[murtad]

cestusdei:

Sorry, all wars involve killing. That’s what happens people get killed and things get broken. We didn’t start this war.

You are correct. All wars involve killing and Catholic faith is not pacifist as it endorses just war. The Islamists started this war by first bombing USA, then Spain, and finally UK. Christian armies have right to retalitate and both wars in Afganistan and Iraq were just wars. We also have right to be present on lands of Islam so that we can prevent the Caliphate from being established so that we can protect good Muslims from Islamists.

cestusdei:

In WWII we bombed cities. The Germans felt that was wrong.

Also, Germans colloborated with Islamists in World War 1 and they declared Caliph of Islam their friend. In World War 2, German leader, Adolf Hitler invited Turkey to join Axis so they could work together to revive the Islamic Caliphate. This is proof Adolf Hitler was follower of Islam.

cestusdei:

Until they heard about Dachau etc. Their own actions caused the war and destruction. Real Muslims should be on our side if for no other reason then self interest. I believe that your appeasement policies will actually cause more deaths and lengthen the war.

Appeasement policies never work. It is normally Edomites who resort to these policies due to fear of death but love to live. That is why Lord Jesus said “I love Jacob but I hate Esav”. Israel loves their inheritance, love him first and seek martyrdom for his cause. Edom hates their inheritance, hates the Lord Jesus, and refuses to be martyred for his cause.

Lord Jesus is represented by Isaac and His Church by Rebekah. The Church has two sons, Esav and Jacob. Esav is those Christians who hate the Catholic Church, while Jacob is those Christians who love the Catholic Church.

For more information, read what St Augustine says on this.

 

[cestusdei]

pro, I tell you what. Go to Bethleham. Dress as a priest. Find the local Christians. Get them aside where no Muslims are present. Then ask them how they feel about their treatment by Muslims. You will get an earful. Then you can offer me an apology which I will graciously accept.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

pro, I tell you what. Go to Bethleham. Dress as a priest. Find the local Christians. Get them aside where no Muslims are present. Then ask them how they feel about their treatment by Muslims. You will get an earful. Then you can offer me an apology which I will graciously accept.

Again, this is just more of you claiming. Since there is no independent evidence to verify these personal stories of yours, and you don’t even try to offer any, I think it’s more than fair to assume that either you did not go, or that you are not being honest.

I had daily contact for three years with Christian refugees from Palestine myself, and I did not hear a single word of sympathy for Israel, nor any ill will for the muslims. I don’t cite that as evidence, however, because if it weren’t backed up by independent sources, you would just accuse me of lying (like you did when I stated my religious beliefs.)

So, back to square one: cestus making personal claims as if they’re authoritative, when they fly in the face of all available independent evidence. There is no good reason to believe your stories. In fact I don’t even believe you actually went to Palestine, but that’s not relevant…evidence is, and you don’t have any.