Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades

[Ella]

pro_universal:

So, back to square one: cestus making personal claims as if they’re authoritative, when they fly in the face of all available independent evidence.

Pro, what independent evidence are you referring to?

I think it is presumtuous to assume that all Palestinean Christians prefer either Israeli OR Muslim rule. It very well could be that both of you gentlemen know Palestinean Christians with opposing opinions on this subject.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

Pro, what independent evidence are you referring to?

I think it is presumtuous to assume that all Palestinean Christians prefer either Israeli OR Muslim rule. It very well could be that both of you gentlemen know Palestinean Christians with opposing opinions on this subject.

I am referring to a BBC feature I posted to cestusdei a while back, wherein it was documented that the mayor of Bethlehem is required by Palestinian Authority law to be Christian, and where the mayor pointed out that his own daughter had been killed in Israeli airstrikes, and that as a leader of his community he was united with muslims against Israel.

 

[cestusdei]

pro, I believe you. I don’t think they would dare say anything about persecution by Muslims to you. They knew you would tell the Muslims and they would suffer for it personally. It would have been idiotic of them to open up to you when you are on the side of the Islamicists. But I know what I heard and saw. You are the type who the Germans could have given a tour of Dachau to and you would have said you saw nothing out of the ordinary. If the terrorists lined your own family up for beheading you would simply deny what was taking place until your own term came. I always wondered why people would walk into gas chambers and pretend everything was okay even while realizing it wasn’t. I think I am starting to understand.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

pro, I believe you. I don’t think they would dare say anything about persecution by Muslims to you. They knew you would tell the Muslims and they would suffer for it personally. It would have been idiotic of them to open up to you when you are on the side of the Islamicists.

Okay, well, considering that I was an American living in Washington DC, as they were permanently, I don’t think this argument really means much. I had no opinion on the Israel Palestine conflict before I met these people, actually, but this particular group of Palestinians convinced me to look further into the problem.

cestusdei:

But I know what I heard and saw. You are the type who the Germans could have given a tour of Dachau to and you would have said you saw nothing out of the ordinary. If the terrorists lined your own family up for beheading you would simply deny what was taking place until your own term came. I always wondered why people would walk into gas chambers and pretend everything was okay even while realizing it wasn’t. I think I am starting to understand.

Again, this is more of you claiming something. The fact that no objective evidence supports your claims is strong evidence that you are not telling the truth. You can call me whatever name you like, draw whatever comparison you like, but two facts remain:

1. No evidence supports your claims about Palestine.
2. You have advocated using nuclear weapons on muslim holy sites, which is a position so evil that it should be a strong indicator to anyone that you’re willing to do anything (since you are willing to support kililng millions of people, there’s no reason why you wouldn’t lie) to attack muslims.

In short, your claims to personal knowledge of Palestine are not credible. Keep repeating yourself all you want, and it won’t make you any less or more truthful. Having no objective reports to support your claims makes them irrelevant, except insofar as they damage your credibility even further.

 

[murtad]

SPH1:

Pro, are such taunts also part of your game?

I suggest you ignore Pro_Universal by adding him to your kill file. This is what I do on USENET to trolls. On this forum, I do not know how to kill file those pesky Edomites. Does anyone know how?

 

[murtad]

pro_universal:

No game here.

So you say. Yet you will find it hard to convince Catholic people you are not playing games. Lying is an ancient game played by the Pharisees.

pro_universal:

Just a genuine interest in helping you to view history in such a way that you will not be hateful of other people, and so I challenge your views.

You have no genuine interest - in fact the Lord Jesus himself said “hate what is evil”, so hating Islam is not hating Muslims. Your challenges are no threat to us.

pro_universal:

You’re clearly free to expect a response from me if you present claims, and if I ask for the same, it’s so that I can help you to learn.

You want to help us learn, but do you want to learn? You are so confused that you made a claim in the past that “race” is not “language”. St. Paul said there is no difference between Jew and Greek, and you dare to challenge the apostle! The fact is all humans come from common parents, Adam and Eve prove we are one people. Yet, we seem to be divided into “races”. So, what are these so-called “races”? Languages

Arabs as Arabs because they speak Arabic. Jews are Jews because they speak Hebrew. Greeks are Greeks because they speak Greek. So, language is ideology and therefore Arabism, Hellenism and Judaism should be deemed such.

 

[exoflare]

murtad:

The fact is all humans come from common parents, Adam and Eve prove we are one people. Yet, we seem to be divided into “races”. So, what are these so-called “races”? Languages

Arabs as Arabs because they speak Arabic. Jews are Jews because they speak Hebrew. Greeks are Greeks because they speak Greek. So, language is ideology and therefore Arabism, Hellenism and Judaism should be deemed such.

AMEN! I can’t stand when people put such emphasis on “race” as if it were so distinctive or actually had any relevance to practical life. Just when do they think the separate races appeared after the time of Adam and Eve? The whole concept itself is nothing more than an insignificant social construct.

 

[exoflare]

murtad:

I suggest you ignore Pro_Universal by adding him to your kill file. This is what I do on USENET to trolls. On this forum, I do not know how to kill file those pesky Edomites. Does anyone know how?

I just skip over their posts, after telling the person once that they’re a waste of my time and I’m just going to ignore them from now on… It’s pretty simple. Although I do think there is an “ignore this user’s posts” function on this forum somewhere… I just haven’t used it.

EDIT: Yeah, I found it. Just go to said user’s profile, and click on the part where it says “add [username] to your ignore list” (it’s in the orange bar).

 

[cestusdei]

pro, Osama says he wants to use nukes against us. You haven’t protested that. I guess you don’t mind nukes as long as they are used against the USA. As of yet you have given no options about how we should respond to that kind of attack. Other then swift surrender and conversion.

I was there. They talked to me privately. I won’t give you names even privately. You would just pass them on and they would “disappear”. Then you would deny anything was amiss. No Islamic terrorist act is indefensible to you.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

pro, Osama says he wants to use nukes against us. You haven’t protested that. I guess you don’t mind nukes as long as they are used against the USA. As of yet you have given no options about how we should respond to that kind of attack. Other then swift surrender and conversion.

Again, please post a quote indicating that I “wouldn’t mind.” I have rejected and condemned all killing of civilians repeatedly, including on this thread. Having no other option for a response (which is another fact I dispute) does not justify killing millions of people, especially if the Just War tradition is your basis for judging acts of war.

cestusdei:

I was there. They talked to me privately. I won’t give you names even privately. You would just pass them on and they would “disappear”. Then you would deny anything was amiss. No Islamic terrorist act is indefensible to you.

Well, repeating yourself doesn’t really add anything. You are not credible, and no evidence (even anonymous news reports by credible sources) supports your claims. You may repeat “I saw” all you want, but that isn’t evidence that you actually saw anything.

As for me “passing on” names, seriously…you need a switch to decaff start reading the Bible instead of Tom Clancy.

 

[pro_universal]

Here are some more sources regarding Christians in Palestine besides the BBC version. This should suffice to demonstrate why I am questioning cestusdei’s credibility on this claim:

It is hard to know who is using whom more: the Christian right for offering secular power in the expectation that the Jewish state will be destroyed by a greater spiritual one, or the Israeli right for accepting their offer. What we do know is that both sides are abusing the Palestinians. Apparently we don’t enter into anyone’s calculations.

natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/112202/112202r.htm

The Palestinian Christians see themselves, and are seen by their Muslim compatriots, as an integral part of the Palestinian people, and they have long been a vital part of the Palestinian struggle. As the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, the Reverend Riah Abu al-Assal has explained, “The Arab Palestinian Christians are part and parcel of the Arab Palestinian nation. We have the same history, the same culture, the same habits and the same hopes.”

amconmag.com/2004_05_24/article.html

the fact that Palestinian Christians are united with Palestinian Muslims in the goal of liberation shows that their struggle isn’t so much religious as it is nationalistic and human.

usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-06-05-opcom_x.htm

Palestinian Christians in the West Bank accused Israel of sabotaging their annual Easter pilgrimage to the site of Christ’s crucifixion.

This year, Easter coincided with the most important Jewish holiday of Passover, and Israel enforced a complete closure of the Palestinian Territories, fearing a terrorist attack.

For thousands of Christians from nearby Bethlehem, it meant another year barred from praying at Jerusalem’s Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is built on the site where it’s believed Christ died and then rose again.

cathnews.com/news/404/51.php

Those should illustrate the problem with cesutus’s claims nicely for now.

 

[Eden]

Pro_universal, have you considered converting to Islam? It seems that you spend so much time defending Islam rather than evangelizing Muslims. As a Catholic, I see that as rather wasteful of the opportunity you have here to tell the Muslims about Christ. Maybe you should make it official. Just an observation.

 

[pro_universal]

Eden:

Pro_universal, have you considered converting to Islam? It seems that you spend so much time defending Islam rather than evangelizing Muslims. As a Catholic, I see that as rather wasteful of the opportunity you have here to tell the Muslims about Christ. Maybe you should make it official. Just an observation.

The best way to tell muslims about Christ is to unequivocally condemn the people who want to nuke their holy sites and who go around spreading disinformation about them.

There is no opportunity to tell muslims about anything if when cestusdei advocates nuking them, and a multitude of posts can accuse their religion of being evil, we are silent. What kind of example of Christianity is that?

In addition…the above quotes are about Christians. I think you may have missed that.

 

[Eden]

pro_universal:

The best way to tell muslims about Christ is to unequivocally condemn the people who want to nuke their holy sites and who go around spreading disinformation about them.

There is no opportunity to tell muslims about anything if when cestusdei advocates nuking them, and a multitude of posts can accuse their religion of being evil, we are silent. What kind of example of Christianity is that?

In addition…the above quotes are about Christians. I think you may have missed that.

I disagree with your method of proclaiming Christ. In fact, I think you are an impediment to Muslims learning about the faith. Your posts about the “crimes” of the Church are a distraction from the Muslims here hearing His message. There are people who are willing to get the death sentence in Muslim countries as they take the risk of evangelizing Muslims. You have a free opportunity here to proclaim the “Good News” and you failed. It is a disgrace to the memory of saintly Catholics like Fr. Santoro in Turkey.

asianews.it/files/dos/santoro.jpg



Yes. I think what you are doing here is a disgrace. I’ve never seen someone trash His Church so consistently the way you have here in the name of ecumenism. That is not what is meant by ecumenism - to disparage the Church. Just a disgrace!

 

[pro_universal]

Eden:

Yes. I think what you are doing here is a disgrace. I’ve never seen someone trash His Church so consistently the way you have here in the name of ecumenism. That is not what is meant by ecumenism - to disparage the Church. Just a disgrace!

Please quote where I have trashed the message of Jesus, ie, the authoritative teaching of the Catholic church. I have no disparaged the Church even one time in all of my posts on this board.

I have condemned things done in the name of the Church that were evil, as is right and proper. My point is that those things shouldn’t be taken as the True Church’s teaching.

I do think it’s disgraceful to be silent when a supposed Priest calls for killing millions of people, and I think if you love our Church, you must believe that also.

 

[Eden]

I suggest that you research how Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have responded to Islam as Vicars of Christ. Hint: It doesn’t include a posting a “litany” of “crimes committed” by the Church.

 

[pro_universal]

Eden:

I suggest that you research how Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have responded to Islam as Vicars of Christ. Hint: It doesn’t include a posting a “litany” of “crimes committed” by the Church.

It didn’t include a litany of crimes committed by “the muslims” either. It demands that we love the people of Islam and see the common good between our religions. Do you think cestusdei and yourself are doing that-focusing on common good and on the strong points of Islam to create brotherhood?

I condemn some of the crusaders’ actions and the words of cestusdei on independent Catholic teachings. Those acts and ideas would be immoral no matter who they were aimed at.

 

[Eden]

pro_universal:

It didn’t include a litany of crimes committed by “the muslims” either.

I condemn some of the crusaders’ actions and the words of cestusdei on independent Catholic teachings. Those acts and ideas would be immoral no matter who they were aimed at.

I’ve read what you have been posting here long enough to request that you please not feign incredulity. If you want to continue to deny that you have trashed the Church in the name of ecumenism, so be it.

“To thine own self be true”.

 

[pro_universal]

Eden:

I’ve read what you have been posting here long enough to request that you please not feign incredulity. If you want to continue to deny that you have trashed the Church in the name of ecumenism, so be it.

“To thine own self be true”.

Well, if you’ve read it and want to accuse me of it, go ahead and post it here.

It’s not increduilty I’m showing you, it’s flat out denial. I’m saying that you are not accurately representing what I have posted, and if you say otherwise…let’s see the substance.

If there is none, I’ll assume that’s because you looked back over my posts and see nothing you could credibly repost here to prove your point.

 

[Eden]

Some examples would be the insistence that Christianity spread “by the sword”, the assertion that the Crusades were “not moral”, the opposition to the Church’s “just war” doctrine and using the Inquisition as an example of the Church’s brutality IN MARKED CONTRAST TO a dearth of information on Christ, His divinity, what He taught, the Sacraments, the Bible as inspired, our call to follow Christ, discussion of the great witness of the saints, what Christ’s death and Resurrection mean for our salvation and so on.