Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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jwinch2 said:
That would be the likely end result of the process, but I would humbly suggest that it needs to be a more fundamental shift then that. Going back to square one by building your life around Christ through prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and study of His word through Sacred Scripture and the writings of the great saints and fathers within the Sacred Tradition of the Church.

Once that is established and nourished, apostolates will develop from that wellspring of faith and trust in God and the work will be holy and righteous. All of that other stuff will take care of itself if the proper foundation is there.

Much of what we are seeing today is a result of improper and incomplete formation to begin with. All Sisters and Nuns should have a basic level of spiritual and theological formation. Then, if they are going to be nurses, social workers, health care policy experts, teachers, etc. that training should happen on top of their formation, not instead of it and preferably at an authentically Catholic college or university. A certain percentage of sisters should not be trained in the apostolate of their congregation but should instead go for much deeper formation in spirituality and theology. They can then serve as spiritual directors within their own communities, novice masters, DRE’s and RCIA leaders within parishes or Catholic schools, coordinators for lay associates of their congregations, etc.

They can’t always rely on a priest to be around for spiritual direction, and there is no reason why a women cannot learn theology as well as any man. They certainly cannot receive Holy Orders, but they can be of invaluable assistance to their sisters and to the greater Church community by getting a deep and authentic formation in the spiritual and theological tradition of the Church.
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I agree. It needs to be very carefully and faithfully. And religious congregations should take care to bring in young women only as quickly as they can train and educate them properly and acclimate them to real religious life faithfully. This is one of the mistakes that happened years ago and now we see the result of superficial education & incomplete acclimatization to the real purposes of religious life.
 
iloveangels said:
As far as I know, the hierarchy doesn’t have any problem with St. Mary Magdalene. Why would they if that were all there was to it? She’s a saint.

On the other hand, the far left Call to Action contingent has built programs around St. Mary Magdalene’s name and so on. This may well be where mention of her is coming from. It can be major tip-off of far left activity when you run across it. Several saints are used in that way.
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That’s what I’m trying to figure out. I did some internet research on Mary Magdalene, and Catholic accounts are that she was cloistered in a cave starting from fourteen years after the Crucifixion. So…I guess it makes since for sisters religious to emulate that. I’m not sure why she is brought up by those complaining about women in leadership roles.

In the Bible, the accounts of her are purely about her love for Our Lord after her conversion. This, everyone should emulate.

Now, if you read Gnostic accounts, you get a different story ala Dan Brown novel material. Therefore, I wonder if those who bring her up as their “women in leadership” hero tend toward Gnosticism. 🤷
 
rlg94086 said:
That’s what I’m trying to figure out. I did some internet research on Mary Magdalene, and Catholic accounts are that she was cloistered in a cave starting from fourteen years after the Crucifixion. So…I guess it makes since for sisters religious to emulate that. I’m not sure why she is brought up by those complaining about women in leadership roles.

In the Bible, the accounts of her are purely about her love for Our Lord after her conversion. This, everyone should emulate.

Now, if you read Gnostic accounts, you get a different story ala Dan Brown novel material. Therefore, I wonder if those who bring her up as their “women in leadership” hero tend toward Gnosticism. 🤷
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Examples:
cta-columbus.org/node/34
religionnerd.com/2011/02/15/mary-magdalene-and-female-authority-in-the-early-church/

Far left types and enthusiasts for women’s ordination just picked her up as an doula.

She’s not the only saint that’s been picked up this way. Bet you can’t guess which group “adopted” St. Sebastian.
 
I just read where the average age of sisters associated with LCWR is 74.The average sister is past retirement age. Or do they not have a retirement age?

The reform is to last 5 years. By then the average sister will be 79.

With no vocations, who will be around to help them?
 
opus101 said:
I just read where the average age of sisters associated with LCWR is 74.The average sister is past retirement age. Or do they not have a retirement age?

The reform is to last 5 years. By then the average sister will be 79.

With no vocations, who will be around to help them?
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Do you have a link for that? That seems very high to me. If the women religious we are referring to are products of the 1960’s then they are likely to be in their mid-60’s or so rather than in their 70’s.

Also, does anyone have good data on the percentage of women religious in the United States who are affiliated with LCWR? I have seen everything from 3 - 80% being thrown around.

Peace,
 
opus101 said:
I just read where the average age of sisters associated with LCWR is 74.The average sister is past retirement age. Or do they not have a retirement age?

The reform is to last 5 years. By then the average sister will be 79.

With no vocations, who will be around to help them?
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That’s an average. They have some younger ones and some older ones. And some of the congregations actually have quite a lot of money via dividends from investments and business deals that were made when real estate, hospitals, colleges and so on were sold or handed over to boards of directors. Some of them lease out space that’s no longer used by people in the order - as retirement villas, retreat spaces and so on. Some of them receive salaries from the positions they fill at big organizations like the ones that lobbied for Obamacare. There are donations and programs and projects that are marketed to local Catholic laity and so on. So, they hire help when they need it just like anyone else.
 
jwinch2 said:
Do you have a link for that? That seems very high to me. If the women religious we are referring to are products of the 1960’s then they are likely to be in their mid-60’s or so rather than in their 70’s.

Also, does anyone have good data on the percentage of women religious in the United States who are affiliated with LCWR? I have seen everything from 3 - 80% being thrown around.

Peace,
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That doesn’t seem so strange to me. At any given time, in any given convent, there would have been a range of ages. This is an AVERAGE, remember. They wouldn’t all have been 18 at any given time.

Not only that but there was a mass exodus of younger sisters in the late 60s & early 70s. Huge numbers of them left. The older ones with the least outside connections and the worst social & employment opportunities would have been the least likely to leave. And then vocations dwindled after that.

So, no. I don’t find mid-70s unlikely-sounding.
 
iloveangels said:
That doesn’t seem so strange to me. At any given time, in any given convent, there would have been a range of ages. This is an AVERAGE, remember. They wouldn’t all have been 18 at any given time.

Not only that but there was a mass exodus of younger sisters in the late 60s & early 70s. Huge numbers of them left. The older ones with the least outside connections and the worst social & employment opportunities would have been the least likely to leave. And then vocations dwindled after that.

So, no. I don’t find mid-70s unlikely-sounding.
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I do. I am around several sisters in a group within LCWR and was at our previous parish as well. They are likely in their 60’s, but only one is in her 70’s that I can tell. Again, I would be interested in seeing a link or something as to where the information came from.
 
Since this investigation is going forward, it is Archbishop Sartain’s job and his brother Bishops’, to meet the LCWR where they are. If they really believe the sisters are wayward, it is so very important to remember the lessons from Prodigal Son and be true compassionate and forgiving “fathers”. Acting like that will demonstrate true ministry, respect, and a true hope for reconciliation. If they don’t, it will not be good for the church even if they correct the “wayward” ways. It will be a sign that my suspicions are correct and I am right to sympathize with the LCWR and not with bitter old men. Hope I’m wrong.
 
jwinch2 said:
I do. I am around several sisters in a group within LCWR and was at our previous parish as well. They are likely in their 60’s, but only one is in her 70’s that I can tell. Again, I would be interested in seeing a link or something as to where the information came from.
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Those are younger ones still working. There are almost certainly older ones at home that you don’t see.
 
jwinch2 said:
Do you have a link for that? That seems very high to me. If the women religious we are referring to are products of the 1960’s then they are likely to be in their mid-60’s or so rather than in their 70’s.

Also, does anyone have good data on the percentage of women religious in the United States who are affiliated with LCWR? I have seen everything from 3 - 80% being thrown around.

Peace,
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jwinch, it is in the article on Archbishop Sartain in the National Catholic Register. I’ll try to find it. It did say 74, though.
 
JoanC said:
Since this investigation is going forward, it is Archbishop Sartain’s job and his brother Bishops’, to meet the LCWR where they are. If they really believe the sisters are wayward, it is so very important to remember the lessons from Prodigal Son and be true compassionate and forgiving “fathers”. Acting like that will demonstrate true ministry, respect, and a true hope for reconciliation. If they don’t, it will not be good for the church even if they correct the “wayward” ways. It will be a sign that my suspicions are correct and I am right to sympathize with the LCWR and not with bitter old men. Hope I’m wrong.
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Yeah, well. The report has objectives. They have certain things they have to clean up. There are objective things that have gone wrong and need to be fixed, removed or repaired. And until that’s done, they’re not finished. And the Holy See via Bishop Sartain will decide when that’s been done. And I’m good with that.

BTW, are you a Barbara Marx Hubbard fan, too? barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/
 
JoanC said:
Since this investigation is going forward, it is Archbishop Sartain’s job and his brother Bishops’, to meet the LCWR where they are. If they really believe the sisters are wayward, it is so very important to remember the lessons from Prodigal Son and be true compassionate and forgiving “fathers”. Acting like that will demonstrate true ministry, respect, and a true hope for reconciliation. If they don’t, it will not be good for the church even if they correct the “wayward” ways. It will be a sign that my suspicions are correct and I am right to sympathize with the LCWR and not with bitter old men. Hope I’m wrong.
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To whom are you referring to as “bitter old men”? If anyone is old and bitter, it is the sisters. And don’t forget, the Prodigal Son was repentant and took it upon himself to return to the house of his father.

What makes you think that the Archbishop and others would not be compassionate and forgiving if the sisters are repentant like the prodigal son? If they turn away from their bitter, angry, rebellious ways and return to Christ, there will be no problem. In fact, even if they don’t there will be no problem. They have free will. If they choose not to be Catholic, it’s up to them.
 
jwinch2 said:
Do you have a link for that? That seems very high to me. If the women religious we are referring to are products of the 1960’s then they are likely to be in their mid-60’s or so rather than in their 70’s.

Also, does anyone have good data on the percentage of women religious in the United States who are affiliated with LCWR? I have seen everything from 3 - 80% being thrown around.

Peace,
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It’s in paragraph 9 of this article: ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop-sartain-praises-women-religious-as-great-gift-to-the-church/
 
JoanC said:
Since this investigation is going forward, it is Archbishop Sartain’s job and his brother Bishops’, to meet the LCWR where they are. If they really believe the sisters are wayward, it is so very important to remember the lessons from Prodigal Son and be true compassionate and forgiving “fathers”. Acting like that will demonstrate true ministry, respect, and a true hope for reconciliation. If they don’t, it will not be good for the church even if they correct the “wayward” ways. It will be a sign that my suspicions are correct and I am right to sympathize with the LCWR and not with bitter old men. Hope I’m wrong.
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The prodigal son was truly repentant when he came home to his father. He admitted his sins and was ready to make amends for them. If the sisters in question choose to behave the same way, I am supremely confident in them being treated with mercy and justice. If not, then things could get a bit messy. However, if it comes to that, it will be on them.

Secondly, I am willing to be that the Archbishop did not go looking for this assignment. It is one that will need to be handled with significant amounts of delicacy and conviction. It is likely to make many people uncomfortable. I am sure that Cardinal Levada and the Holy Father took that into consideration when they chose him to lead the efforts.

Finally, for someone who came on here calling people out on a supposed lack of charity, calling the Holy Father, Cardinal Levada and the rest of the CDF, and Archbishop Sartain “bitter old men” is pretty rich. Unlike some of the sisters in question, these men have held true to the faith they swore to pass on.
 
I would like to thank God for all the sisters who influenced my life and helped form me in my Catholic faith. There are too many to name. I have been fortunate indeed.
Who else can thank God for the sisters and their positive influence?

By the way, iloveangels, your last question to me is rather patronizing…was that your intent? Hope not.
 
JoanC said:
I would like to thank God for all the sisters who influenced my life and helped form me in my Catholic faith. There are too many to name. I have been fortunate indeed.
Who else can thank God for the sisters and their positive influence?

By the way, iloveangels, your last question to me is rather patronizing…was that your intent? Hope not.
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Just wondering. A lot of people have been misled by the situation and have some pretty foggy notions about what’s been going on. The truth of what’s going on has been a lot creepier than many people realized. Just wondering how much you know about what’s really been going on, that’s all.

The link was to the keynote speaker for the 2012 annual LCWR convention. This one’s as New Age as they come, a real tin foil hat and antennae type. Real UFO territory.

New-Age: Rhymes with Sewage. Different first letter, otherwise pretty much the same.
 
JoanC said:
I would like to thank God for all the sisters who influenced my life and helped form me in my Catholic faith. There are too many to name. I have been fortunate indeed.
Who else can thank God for the sisters and their positive influence?

By the way, iloveangels, your last question to me is rather patronizing…was that your intent? Hope not.
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I think that the link was what passes for humour around here.
 
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